GM still not out of the poo

[EgoFG]

Every 3 months public companies in the USA submit financial details to the regulators - the 10-Q

This includes a balance sheet (which I can understand) and a profit and loss (which I could not make comparative sense of)

Because of different levels of summarisation in the 10-Qs I looked at, this is the best level of detail I can show

the news (bearing in mind that I may be misunderstanding the 10-Q)

GM Assets 136,046,000,000
GM Liabilities (-) 191,640,000,000
GM net -55,594,000,000

Ford Assets 200,190,000,000
Ford Liabilities (-) 209,608,000,000
Ford net - 9,418,000,000

So, GM is almost 6 times worse off than Ford

An improvement on 9 months ago ... but we should expect no less, they got rid of the worst parts

Especially seeing that Ford seem to have made a profit of about 2,261,000,000, and GM a loss or about 19,537,000,000 ...

I (IMHO) conclude that GM is not out of the poo, neither is Ford - but Ford remains in a significantly better position.

[burnz]

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by burnz

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

[mustang70]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

well said, if only they'd would work for free too then there'd be much more profits

[burnz]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

not only do they have compolsery like here, but extra paid in??
can't they pay the extra them self!! "i do".
free dental, medical for the rest of their live's....

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by burnz

not only do they have compolsery like here, but extra paid in??
can't they pay the extra them self!! "i do".
free dental, medical for the rest of their live's....

FAIL :

[burnz]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

FAIL :

no you fail
http://www.gmret.org/
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...ns+are+at+risk

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by cs123

You don't think retired workers deserve a pension?

Its not that they don't deserve a pension, its just that if a compromise is not found between Ford/GM/Chrysler and the workers there will potentially be no pensions because the companies won't exist. No business can continue to operate with something like 2-3 retired workers claiming pensions for every one worker. A few years ago a read an article in Time magazine saying that Ford and GM's retiree's pensions where adding approximately between $1000-1500 US to the to the cost of every car they built. Hard to be competitive against other countries which don't have such generous pension plans.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Cabbage

Its not that they don't deserve a pension, its just that if a compromise is not found between Ford/GM/Chrysler and the workers there will potentially be no pensions because the companies won't exist. No business can continue to operate with something like 2-3 retired workers claiming pensions for every one worker. A few years ago a read an article in Time magazine saying that Ford and GM's retiree's pensions where adding approximately between $1000-1500 US to the to the cost of every car they built. Hard to be competitive against other countries which don't have such generous pension plans.

I'm on shaky ground here because I know little about how pension funds are structured in the US but I was of the belief that they are already fully funded so would not be having negative impact on the bottom line now.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by cs123

I'm on shaky ground here because I know little about how pension funds are structured in the US but I was of the belief that they are already fully funded so would not be having negative impact on the bottom line now.

No, they're part of their operating expenses and thus a constant liability. That's why Ford aimed for, and got concessions from the unions recently as part of their restructuring plan.

[anto]

Originally Posted by burnz

both companys need to get rid of those (union) retirement packages.

fat chance with "dear leader" obama pulling the strings... take a look at what he did with tarrifs on imported chinese tyres,.. = pro union.

GM ( government Motors ) is doomed ...no 2 ways about it.

[SSD-85]

Agreed, it must be killing them.

[Ghiadude]

If thats what they signed when they started then thats what they should get.

[Thankfull]

Ford is actualy still a family owned company guys....it is good to see them in a reasonable position financialy.

Sombody has been keeping an eye things....you can be sure of that.

William Clay Ford Junior... I think it is, he can veto any direction the board of directors wants to go, if he thinks that it would affect the future sustainability of the Company.

GM perhaps did not have that added safe guard ?

[burnz]

well they have widdled it back a bit (GM)

ford is doing the same..http://healthinsurance.about.com/b/2...h-benefits.htm

[Wally]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

Every 3 months public companies in the USA submit financial details to the regulators - the 10-Q

This includes a balance sheet (which I can understand) and a profit and loss (which I could not make comparative sense of)

Because of different levels of summarisation in the 10-Qs I looked at, this is the best level of detail I can show

the news (bearing in mind that I may be misunderstanding the 10-Q)

GM Assets 136,046,000,000
GM Liabilities (-) 191,640,000,000
GM net -55,594,000,000

Ford Assets 200,190,000,000
Ford Liabilities (-) 209,608,000,000
Ford net - 9,418,000,000

So, GM is almost 6 times worse off than Ford

An improvement on 9 months ago ... but we should expect no less, they got rid of the worst parts

Especially seeing that Ford seem to have made a profit of about 2,261,000,000, and GM a loss or about 19,537,000,000 ...

I (IMHO) conclude that GM is not out of the poo, neither is Ford - but Ford remains in a significantly better position.

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

The Ford liabilities dropped mainly because Ford credit bought $3.4b debt for $1.1b, resulting in a net $2.2bn debt reduction and $1.1b increase in cash flow. So things aren't always what they appear.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

The Ford liabilities dropped mainly because Ford credit bought $3.4b debt for $1.1b, resulting in a net $2.2bn debt reduction and $1.1b increase in cash flow. So things aren't always what they appear.

Yeah there better , there somone with a brain behind the wheels if he can pull off deals like that.

No need to be jealous wally . Gm is in safe hands now tax payer money never runs out gm can run at a loss forever

[Wally]

......................

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Yeah there better , there somone with a brain behind the wheels if he can pull off deals like that.

No need to be jealous wally . Gm is in safe hands now tax payer money never runs out gm can run at a loss forever

The essential difference between the two; one had foresight, the other had taxpayer's money in sight.

One decided to spend big in the toughest of times and kept spending on new innovative products, and since the GFC have unveiled some great new models, with plenty more to come.
The other, decided to cut spending, pretending to try to avoid any bankruptcy.
Then one moment they'll release the Volt, the next, it's canceled. One moment they'll re-introduce a VE, the next moment they'll cancel it. They don't look like they've progressed from their medieval state which put them in this situation.

[Wally]

Having to repay US$35b in debt and obligations within 5 years is not somewhere any company wants to be, especially when they will be bleeding until at least 2011. It's going to be a really hard ask for Ford, but the way I see it is that if GM come out of bankruptcy protection as a real going concern there must be an underlying profit, which should also mean Ford will be profitable:- while GM are being scrutinised by the Govt, they are less likely to drag the market down with loss leaders.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

Having to repay US$35b in debt and obligations within 5 years is not somewhere any company wants to be, especially when they will be bleeding until at least 2011. It's going to be a really hard ask for Ford, but the way I see it is that if GM come out of bankruptcy protection as a real going concern there must be an underlying profit, which should also mean Ford will be profitable:- while GM are being scrutinised by the Govt, they are less likely to drag the market down with loss leaders.

GM will also have preference over ford for government fleets, as it is in the governments best interest for GM to make a profit. Same can be said for Holden here and to a lesser extent, toyota.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Wally

I think you will find the GM figures are GM Old.

I am Afraid that they were not - as GM OLD is now called something like 'liquidation motors' and the 10-Q definitely said General Motors.

[EgoFG]

for Q1 2009 Ford was in this position

Assetts 203,134,000,000
Liabilities 219,611,000,000
in the red by about 16,000,000,000

http://www.gurufocus.com/StockLink.p...08&report=10-Q

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

for Q1 2009 Ford was in this position

Assetts 203,134,000,000
Liabilities 219,611,000,000
in the red by about 16,000,000,000

http://www.gurufocus.com/StockLink.p...08&report=10-Q

Thanks for the links EgoFG!

Interestingly figures in there for Ford:
* Total cash and marketable securities increased by $5.893B
21,560M @ June 30 2009.
15,673M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total assets decreased by $18.619B
204,328M @ June 30 2009.
222,947M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total liabilities decreased by $23.728B
213,746M @ June 30 2009.
237,474M @ Dec 31 2008
* Total deficit decreased by $5.109B
9,418M @ June 30 2009
14,527M @ Dec 31 2008

Overall pretty good figures for Ford. Certainly showing some decent headway is being made. At that rate, by this time next year their deficit should be zero. Still, a long way to go though.

[EgoFG]

Hmmm and here is some breaking news

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayS...34&docid=57205

It seems that the significant sale of the Saturn Brand has fallen through and the brand will be wound down instead.

That will hurt the GM bottom line as they would have assumed a larger value for Saturn than they will now realise,

I hope the Opel/Vauxhall deal fairs better

[vztrt]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5344652.shtml

Just a bit of an overview, well more a good news story on Ford but they are in a much better position then GM/Chrysler.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by vztrt

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5344652.shtml

Just a bit of an overview, well more a good news story on Ford but they are in a much better position then GM/Chrysler.

Another good story for Ford! At least they get them in the US!

[Sprint XR8]

KDB threatens to withdraw GM loans
October 08, 2009

The future of GM Daewoo dimmed earlier this week after Korea Development Bank, the automaker’s main creditor, issued the company something more than a simple warning.

KDB President Min Euoo-sung said that if General Motors, the parent company of GM Daewoo, does not comply with KDB’s demands, the bank will withdraw financing on loans scheduled to mature at the end of the month.

Min said the contract made with General Motors when it bought Daewoo Motor in 2001 was “unfair.”

The creditor is demanding that GM carry out a capital increase, raise the number of creditors in GM Daewoo’s management through the co-chief financial officer position and share the licenses on automobiles that were developed here in Korea with GM Daewoo to prevent the Korean unit from becoming a subcontractor.

“Although GM Daewoo suffered a loss of 2.7 trillion won ($2.3 billion), which was also from foreign-exchange forward contracts, and requested about 1 trillion won in financial aid, it hasn’t moved to accept our proposal,” Min said.

If the conditions proposed by the bank are not accepted, KDB plans to collect the 125.8 billion won in loans that are due at the end of the month.

GM Daewoo has thus far borrowed a total of 1.5 trillion won from KDB.

Despite the ongoing negotiations, the automaker has been hoping that the release of its new vehicles, including the Matiz Creative and Lacetti Premiere ID, will give it a boost.

GM Daewoo said its new president, Mike Arcamone, who arrived in Seoul on the first day of this month, has not yet made official contact with Min. GM’s chairman, Ed Whitacre, is scheduled to visit Korea next Wednesday.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/artic...sp?aid=2911008

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

KDB threatens to withdraw GM loans
October 08, 2009

The future of GM Daewoo dimmed earlier this week after Korea Development Bank, the automaker’s main creditor, issued the company something more than a simple warning.

KDB President Min Euoo-sung said that if General Motors, the parent company of GM Daewoo, does not comply with KDB’s demands, the bank will withdraw financing on loans scheduled to mature at the end of the month.

Min said the contract made with General Motors when it bought Daewoo Motor in 2001 was “unfair.”

The creditor is demanding that GM carry out a capital increase, raise the number of creditors in GM Daewoo’s management through the co-chief financial officer position and share the licenses on automobiles that were developed here in Korea with GM Daewoo to prevent the Korean unit from becoming a subcontractor.

“Although GM Daewoo suffered a loss of 2.7 trillion won ($2.3 billion), which was also from foreign-exchange forward contracts, and requested about 1 trillion won in financial aid, it hasn’t moved to accept our proposal,” Min said.

If the conditions proposed by the bank are not accepted, KDB plans to collect the 125.8 billion won in loans that are due at the end of the month.

GM Daewoo has thus far borrowed a total of 1.5 trillion won from KDB.

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/artic...sp?aid=2911008

What a heap of crud. Typical nationalistic type of stunt pulled by Korea.

Guess what? The deal was made when Daewoo went bankrupt because they made crappy cars that not enough people thought were cheap enough to buy.

GM goes in and buys them for a cheap price. They GM & GM Daewoo design some newer, less crappy cars for which demand is increasing and now the KDB reckons that the original deal was "unfair". They approved the deal, thinking they will get their money back.

The other part of the KDB new deal / bribe / whatever is to make the Cruze only in Korea.

What i take from this is with the new US cop car deal GMH has, the Cruze will no longer be made here in Australia like they have (a) convinced uninformed masses of people that it already is, (b) that it will be next year.

That will be the next major annnouncement.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

[B]KDB President Min Euoo-sung said that if General Motors, the parent company of GM Daewoo, does not comply with KDB’s demands, the bank will withdraw financing on loans scheduled to mature at the end of the month.http://joongangdaily.joins.com/artic...sp?aid=2911008

These were some of KDB's 'demands' earlier in the year:

Originally Posted by CarPoint

According to a report in the Korea Times (more here), the bank (KDB) doesn't see GM-DAT providing an adequate return on investment unless it can produce its own engines -- and the KDB specifically has its eyes on the V6 engine output currently within the purview of Holden's plant in Port Melbourne.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2009...n-gambit-15347

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Gee if Daewoo goes bust what will Holden sell then?

Think GM will put GMH out to pasture before GM Daewoo. The plot thickens!