Fuel bowsers tallying a few more litres more than usual?

I seem to be hanging out in your forum quite a bit but seeing as I'm here I have another question for you lot.

What's the solution when you're at a garage getting fuel and the bowser's end tally is more than you think it should be? Innocent mix-up, technical explanation or garage owner intentionally ripping people off?

From time to time I cut it real fine and let my tank run until it estimates less than 10KM left (yes yes I know, bad for lots of reasons, no amount of scolding is going to get me to stop). Not that long ago I filled up from a particularly empty tank and the bowser ran until it said I'd filled 65 litres. I think the tank in a BA falcon is supposed to be 68 litres but in 10 years-ish of having that car and doing around 500km/week, it has never filled more than 62 litres even right from naughty near-dead-empty. Except at one garage. An extra 3 litres per car would get around $4 extra per car and that'd add up pretty quickly.

What say you, fordforums?? Innocent case of bowser not reporting correctly, a perfectly logical possible technical tank-related explanation or garage owner ripping people off?

[solarite_guy]

Some gauges are actually wrong. I am not well enough to get into detail, but I know they can be wrong.

[comfortablynumb]

Bowsers are checked regularly by the ACCC. When was your fuel gauge last calibrated against a known measure?

Unless the servo is out in the sticks, I think it unlikely the pumps have been fiddled.

As an aside, franchisee servo's make SFA from fuel sales.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

Bowsers are checked regularly by the ACCC. When was your fuel gauge last calibrated against a known measure?

Unless the servo is out in the sticks, I think it unlikely the pumps have been fiddled.

As an aside, franchisee servo's make SFA from fuel sales.

One thing I can't grasp, why are there so many servos if it isn't a profitable business? Owners might as well park all that money in a fixed deposit or investments instead of struggling operating a dud business

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

One thing I can't grasp, why are there so many servos if it isn't a profitable business? Owners might as well park all that money in a fixed deposit or investments instead of struggling operating a dud business

The number of servos has diminished big time over the last few decades, even though the population & car numbers have grown. The margins on petrol at the retail level are quite low in comparison to most other commodities.

Have a look how many petrol brands are still around, 3 or 4 ? When I was a kid it was dozens & there was almost a servo on every corner in the suburbs.

Servos make most of their money out of selling you milk, bread, newspapers & ice creams etc., not petrol. Look at Mobil, they sold their retail outlets to 7-11 who run very low overhead outlets. These guys rely on volume.

Also have you seen the % return on fixed deposits these days ? Around 2% !!!

Dr Terry

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

One thing I can't grasp, why are there so many servos if it isn't a profitable business? Owners might as well park all that money in a fixed deposit or investments instead of struggling operating a dud business

Owning a service station is profitable, selling petrol isn't.

[GO FURTHER]

It could simply be a case that the particular pump you used at the service station in question, had a less sensitive bowser nozzle shutoff (the first click).

I've been to servos where pump nozzles failed to sense the tank was full (did not click off) and petrol kept flowing and overflowed out the tank filler.... I'm sure many members here have had that happen to them as well.

I know that at the first click shutoff, I can keep trickle filling and can often get another 5 - 6 litres into the FG's 68 litre tank. (naughty I know).

However, you should NEVER do this, as trickle filling beyond the rated tank capacity will damage the emission control (carbon canister) in the fuel tank.

[flightstrike]

Fuel temperature will have an affect on how much you will uplift. Warmer fuel/warmer day= less fuel that will fit in the tank.

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by flightstrike

Fuel temperature will have an affect on how much you will uplift. Warmer fuel/warmer day= less fuel that will fit in the tank.

A litre is a litre. Hot or cold. Bowsers pump by volume.

I think I know what you are meaning is that the energy value in the expanded hot fuel is less than that in cold fuel.

Two different things.

[vztrt]

Your dte and how much you put in your tank are not a good way of verifying if the pump is dodgy.

As someone else said there is a reserve left in the tank. So 3 litres left at about zero is fine.

It's when the car tells you have fuel and you run out there is a problem. IIRC some fg's had a bad can on the cluster and it did this.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

A litre is a litre. Hot or cold.

Like most substances, petrol expands or contracts depending on its temperature.

In the U.S., 60o Fahrenheit (about 15o Celsius) is recognised by the fuel industry as the zero-point on the temperature scale where fuel is considered “normal” in energy content, weight, and volume—the actual space it occupies.

So at 60oF, a normal gallon of fuel will occupy 231 cubic inches of space, but that same gallon at 80oF would expand to 233.7 cubic inches, and at a colder 40oF, would contract or “shrink” to 228.3 cubic inches.

[flightstrike]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

A litre is a litre. Hot or cold. Bowsers pump by volume.

I think I know what you are meaning is that the energy value in the expanded hot fuel is less than that in cold fuel.

Two different things.

What Go_Further wrote a few posts after me.

Warm environment= Less fuel in the tank. It's something I have to deal with daily (1000s of Litres).

[prydey]

the fuel storage tanks are underground, no doubt partly due to better temperature stability.

i doubt the temp would vary enough to make any meaningful difference in your tank.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by flightstrike

What Go_Further wrote a few posts after me.

Warm environment= Less fuel in the tank. It's something I have to deal with daily (1000s of Litres).

Yeah but when pumping it litre is a litre

Whether you pump in the snow or pump in 40 degrees a litre is a litre at the nozzle.

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by flightstrike

What Go_Further wrote a few posts after me.

Warm environment= Less fuel in the tank. It's something I have to deal with daily (1000s of Litres).

There is only less fuel in volume if the fuel is cooled down after being hot.

[baboon]

I think when the car indicates 0km left, there is probably 5-10litres still left in the tank... But accuracy of the float/sender and the computers interpretation of the level can vary...

[BPXR6T]

Happens. A few years back in canberra I pull into the servo with a quarter tank and some how magically squeeze 84 litres into my 70 litre tank. Dodgy...

[baboon]

Originally Posted by BPXR6T

Happens. A few years back in canberra I pull into the servo with a quarter tank and some how magically squeeze 84 litres into my 70 litre tank. Dodgy...

That IS dodgy, what happened there? Pumping air for half the tank? Or was 14 or so litres on the ground?

[chevypower]

I suspected this one time. Spoke to the attendant. I think we were in Moe at the time. He pumped fuel into a bottle to prove there was no discrepancy. We were satisfied.

[Itsme]

If you think the petrol station has an inaccurate fuel bowser then you can report it.

http://www.measurement.gov.au/Pages/contact.aspx
http://www.measurement.gov.au/Pages/...the-Truth.aspx

[solarite_guy]

They are absolutely wrong sometimes. When I was younger I helped a friend replacing them because of this.

[Lugh]

I have had this. A car i've had for 15 years, done hundreds of thousands of k's in it, and in all that time it had taken more than 90L ONCE. I knew it was down to fumes that time as I got caught out.
There is a servo near where I lived and filled up regularly, and all of a sudden it's taking more than 90L EVERY time, even when I thought it wasn't that close to empty. I changed pumps and same thing. Tried another servo and all was back to normal.
I checked my logbooks (Work car so I keep them for tax) and every time I had filled up there the books showed abnormally high fuel consumption on the previous tank - or that there was more fuel going into the tank than there should have been room for.

You be the judge.

[Bossxr8]

The DTE is always on the conservative side. When it goes to 0 km DTE it doesn't just die straight away. There is a margin of error built in to help stop people getting stranded.

Plus the fuel in the fuel lines isn't measured either. Could be a litre or 2 in there.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by leesa

From time to time I cut it real fine and let my tank run until it estimates less than 10KM left (yes yes I know, bad for lots of reasons, no amount of scolding is going to get me to stop).

this is off topic, but this is a myth. People say if you run it down near empty you pick up all the debris from the bottom of the tank. Where is the fuel pick up? From the bottom of the tank of course, whether your tank is full or empty. In fact, regularly running your tank empty actually helps to minimise the amount of debris that builds up in your tank.

The fuel pump itself needs fuel for cooling, but i believe the fuel pump sits in its own recepticle that doesn't drain as the fuel is emptied. I'm not too sure on this bit, and perhaps some cars are affected by running low but in the 25+ years i've been driving, I have always ran my cars from full to empty every time. none of this just chucking $10 bucks in or whatever. Fill it up, and drive until its empty, and then fill it up. Never have i ever had any issues with burning out a fuel pump or clogging a fuel filter. maybe i'm just lucky, but i don't think so.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

this is off topic, but this is a myth. People say if you run it down near empty you pick up all the debris from the bottom of the tank. Where is the fuel pick up? From the bottom of the tank of course, whether your tank is full or empty. In fact, regularly running your tank empty actually helps to minimise the amount of debris that builds up in your tank.

Not a good idea with diesels.

[superfly]

Originally Posted by prydey

this is off topic, but this is a myth. People say if you run it down near empty you pick up all the debris from the bottom of the tank. Where is the fuel pick up? From the bottom of the tank of course, whether your tank is full or empty. In fact, regularly running your tank empty actually helps to minimise the amount of debris that builds up in your tank.

The fuel pump itself needs fuel for cooling, but i believe the fuel pump sits in its own recepticle that doesn't drain as the fuel is emptied. I'm not too sure on this bit, and perhaps some cars are affected by running low but in the 25+ years i've been driving, I have always ran my cars from full to empty every time. none of this just chucking $10 bucks in or whatever. Fill it up, and drive until its empty, and then fill it up. Never have i ever had any issues with burning out a fuel pump or clogging a fuel filter. maybe i'm just lucky, but i don't think so.

I agree, I've been driving for around 30 years and I too have never had any issues with a fuel pump or fuel filter or any other fuel related issues. I too run mine to empty and then fill up.

I've always filled up after the first click but I find I can't do this in my FG. If I go past the first click, it always overflows. But every other car I've owned, I've always put in a few more litres after the first click.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

this is off topic, but this is a myth. People say if you run it down near empty you pick up all the debris from the bottom of the tank. Where is the fuel pick up? From the bottom of the tank of course, whether your tank is full or empty. In fact, regularly running your tank empty actually helps to minimise the amount of debris that builds up in your tank.

The fuel pump itself needs fuel for cooling, but i believe the fuel pump sits in its own recepticle that doesn't drain as the fuel is emptied. I'm not too sure on this bit, and perhaps some cars are affected by running low but in the 25+ years i've been driving, I have always ran my cars from full to empty every time. none of this just chucking $10 bucks in or whatever. Fill it up, and drive until its empty, and then fill it up. Never have i ever had any issues with burning out a fuel pump or clogging a fuel filter. maybe i'm just lucky, but i don't think so.

If there is stuff floating around in the tank having it near empty will concentrate that junk closer to the pick up. In theory.

But I guess it's wether or not you actually have dirt or whatever in your fuel tank to start with, and that is more a result of which servo you fill up at rather than anything else.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If there is stuff floating around in the tank having it near empty will concentrate that junk closer to the pick up. In theory.

But I guess it's wether or not you actually have dirt or whatever in your fuel tank to start with, and that is more a result of which servo you fill up at rather than anything else.

The theory is that if you regularly run your tank down low, rather than always keeping a certain amount in there, the tank will actually be cleaner.

Either way, as mentioned, I've never ruined a pump or filter because of it.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If there is stuff floating around in the tank having it near empty will concentrate that junk closer to the pick up. In theory.

But I guess it's wether or not you actually have dirt or whatever in your fuel tank to start with, and that is more a result of which servo you fill up at rather than anything else.

I get the just half fill the tank all the time on farm tanks they think they're saving $ but in reality they've got half the tank volume of condensation and spiders dripping into the tank and in most cases no filter on the tank

Sorry, had a busy couple of days and sort of forgot about my thread!

Originally Posted by prydey

this is off topic, but this is a myth. People say if you run it down near empty you pick up all the debris from the bottom of the tank.

Thanks, that's good to know. I've heard lots of people say lots of things like there is debris that collects at the bottom, and then also heard from others that there's foam in the tank so it doesn't matter, and then also heard that the pump needs fuel and letting it run low can affect it, and a few other things I've heard here and there.

I run it down to 10KM estimate here and there but I've been caught out 4 times in 10 years and run it all the way down to zero. So yeah, turns out that zero isn't actually zero. No idea how much leeway there is but I made it 4KM past the point of 0 before I made it to a garage so it's at least 4KM in a BA falcon!

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Not a good idea with diesels.

Also good to know. I'm moving to a diesel soon and just when I think I'm comfortable-ish with understanding how a petrol engine works (or doesn't work), I have to start all over again with a diesel.

I'm told that I also can't ever get lazy with oil changes with a diesel and they absolutely must be done regularly, is that true?
My BA falcon burns through so much oil (long story) that I'm constantly filling it up and if I forget for a few months, it burns itself near dry. Hearing the tap tap is sometimes the only thing that reminds me but I do have to say that falcons are incredibly tolerant. It just keeps going, even when semi-crippled it still seems to want to keep going.

But I hear that diesels just aren't as forgiving? Granted, the diesel doesn't have damage that will result in burning a lot of oil either.

Originally Posted by Officemanager

If you think the petrol station has an inaccurate fuel bowser then you can report it.

http://www.measurement.gov.au/Pages/contact.aspx
http://www.measurement.gov.au/Pages/...the-Truth.aspx

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind for next time. I did actually go and talk to the attendant as I thought I'd give him a heads up but the guy just exploded into a rage at the mere mention that I thought the tank registered more fuel than what my tank should have taken.

Originally Posted by prydey

The theory is that if you regularly run your tank down low, rather than always keeping a certain amount in there, the tank will actually be cleaner.

Either way, as mentioned, I've never ruined a pump or filter because of it.

My biggest suspicion is what happens in the event of a flood? If those tanks are underground, are they water tight so that nothing can get in? Or does water/debris end up in there during a flood? If it's possible, are there any regulations that require underground tanks to be drained and cleaned after floods?

The one thing that I DO do (perhaps naively) is avoid petrol stations if there's currently a tanker there delivering fuel. My layman mind thinks that it makes sense that if there is debris in there, it's more likely to be stirred up when the tank is getting filled? Maybe in reality they are filling a separate tank and let it settle before allowing people to pump fuel out of it, who knows.