Twice as Many P platers died this year than last - Power Restrictions

[merlin]

Source

P-Platers stupidity
By Sharri Markson and Ben Johnson

September 24, 2006 12:00

MORE than half the P-plate drivers killed in NSW road accidents this year were speeding at more than 100km/h at the time.

Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) data shows 14 of the 26 P-plate drivers killed died in accidents that involved speeds above the legal limit for provisional drivers.

Highway patrol officers on the front line have confirmed that P-platers rank among the worst offenders when it comes to breaking road rules.

"I think there's a lot of overconfidence out there,'' Senior Constable Glen Duncan said as he monitored traffic at The Rocks on Friday night.

"If you're going for the biggest speeds registered, P-platers are involved. I often ask people how fast they were going, and they have no idea - and they were doing 110 in an 80 zone.

"The part that gets me about P-platers is that they're just oblivious to the road rules - and they're the ones who have had the most recent education.''

Only one 17- to 20-year-oldwas killed while driving at less than 60km/h this year.

The high death toll has led to calls for tougher P-plate laws including driver education in schools and compulsory professional driving instruction.

Opposition roads spokesman Andrew Stoner said a graphic advertising campaign would be effective in reducing fatal crashes involving P-platers.

"We've got to target driver psychology among young men,'' Mr Stoner said.

"We should have graphic advertising campaigns showing actual images of road fatalities.

"It would be shocking to watch, and we would only screen it after 8.30pm.''

Mr Stoner said it was important to change young drivers' attitudes and target testosterone-fuelled, risk-taking behaviour.

"We have been long advocating compulsory driver education in high schools,'' he said.

"There would be participation by someone who has been involved in accidents and feature the consequences of bad driver behaviour.''

Last week The Sunday Telegraph revealed that the State Government's laws to save young drivers had failed, with twice as many P-plate drivers killed this year compared with the corresponding period last year.

Since the new laws - including banning P-platers from driving high-powered cars - were introduced in July last year, there has been a 37 per cent increase in the number of 17- to 20-year-old drivers killed on NSW roads.

Other states, notably Victoria, have had significant reductions in P-plater deaths after introducing tougher laws.

In Victoria, where the minimum age for P-plate licence holders is 18, seven drivers aged 17 to 20 were killed in the first seven months of this year.

This is almost four times fewer young deaths than during the same period in NSW.

Pedestrian Council chairman Harold Scruby said that following the success in lowering the death toll in Victoria, teenagers should not be able to get their provisional licence until they turn 18.

"You can't drink until you're 18, you can't vote until you're 18 and you can't go to war before you're 18, but you can be in charge of a lethal weapon as a child,'' Mr Scruby said.

He said that after 11pm, P-platers should not be allowed to carry more than one passenger in the car.

"It gets away from the animal-pack mentality, and you're less likely to wipe out five kids at the same time.

"We should have professional driving instructors, and a requirement to fulfil a certain amount of hours with a licensed driving instructor.''

The ATSB data also shows that 85 per cent of the P-plater drivers killed this year were male.

Young drivers hold 15 per cent of licences but are involved in 36 per cent of road fatalities.

In NSW, 51 people aged between 17 and 20 have been killed during the first eight months of this year.

In the corresponding period last year, 34 P-platers were killed.



Personally I think the restriction are the right idea but need to be based on power/weight. They are also only a small step in the right direction - compulsary professional training whilst on L's should be added and more actual police on the roads instead of fixed cameras.

Discuss.

Well considering that the Daily/Sunday Telegraph was one of the main bodys pushing for the high powered cars ban, with their "Anti-Hoon Campaign", they are now blaming the government for a higher toll?!

[merlin]

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Well considering that the Daily/Sunday Telegraph was one of the main bodys pushing for the high powered cars ban, with their "Anti-Hoon Campaign", they are now blaming the government for a higher toll?!

I don't think its fair to blame the government or the paper - the blame lies soley on the immature P plater idiots out there that are killing themselves.

Disclaimer - yes this is not all P platers there are some good ones.

Originally Posted by merlin

I don't think its fair to blame the government or the paper - the blame lies soley on the immature P plater idiots out there that are killing themselves.

Disclaimer - yes this is not all P platers there are some good ones.

I just loved how they did a turn-around, when the (kneejerk) laws were put into place, Daily Telegraph were PRAISING themselves solely.

Now they turnaround as if they have nothing to do with it.

Anyway, the telegraphs reportings is about as credible at Today Tonight.

[Polyal]

I agree. But unfortunately fools will be fools.

On one hand anyone can do damage in any car, whether its a skyline or an excel.

But, something must be done to try. All these people that sook about the power restrictions do not have one good reason why a P plater needs a powerful car.

Learning to drive takes time, so for the first few years of ones driving career its not going to hurt to be limited to say 2.0L and under, no turbo or superchargers.

I agree it sucks, but times have changed, there are lot more people on the roads, its about time we put our pride of driving a hot car on your P's away.

More eductation is needed, horrify the kids in high school, take them to trauma houses where people have to live with their mistakes for the rest of their lives.

Unfortunately, it would cost a metric shyte load to setup up the driving education system that is needed. So until then, bandaid solutions will have to do; like power restrictions, passenger restrictions.

Again, while it is an inconvince, perhaps no passengers after 10PM for P platers? I dont have the exact solution, but there are things like that which need to be trailed atleast, whats the worst thats going to happen that already doesn't?

Originally Posted by Polyal

Again, while it is an inconvince, perhaps no passengers after 10PM for P platers? I dont have the exact solution, but there are things like that which need to be trailed atleast, whats the worst thats going to happen that already doesn't?

Increased accidents by not being able to switch drivers on long trips. Increased drink driving, by not being able to carpool, which IMO will cause more horiffic deaths. Increased pollution.

[EA2BA]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I agree. But unfortunately fools will be fools.

On one hand anyone can do damage in any car, whether its a skyline or an excel.

But, something must be done to try. All these people that sook about the power restrictions do not have one good reason why a P plater needs a powerful car.

Learning to drive takes time, so for the first few years of ones driving career its not going to hurt to be limited to say 2.0L and under, no turbo or superchargers.

My 2L standard 1971 cortina could do 160 easy, I doubt restriction to a litre size will help at all.

Longer hours with an aproved driving school I think would be a better solution.

My brother had a 120Y and on his P's he pulled out to early and he could not accelerate out of the way, then bang, I think underpowered cars are in fact more dangerous then high powered.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by EA2BA

My 2L standard 1971 cortina could do 160 easy, I doubt restriction to a litre size will help at all.

Longer hours with an aproved driving school I think would be a better solution.

My brother had a 120Y and on his P's he pulled out to early and he could not accelerate out of the way, then bang, I think underpowered cars are in fact more dangerous then high powered.

It probably could, but how many of the accidents are happening at that speed? I dont think outright speed is the issue, its the people driving them; the fact that they are allowed to drive a hi-po car doesnt help the issue thats all, its not the main factor.

That 120Y issue has more to do with your brothers decision than the car.

[EA2BA]

Originally Posted by Polyal

That 120Y issue has more to do with your brothers decision than the car.

Yes but a bad decision that could not be corrected due to under powered car is my point, how many times have you made a decision to reliase you are in trouble and good squirt of the acclerator saved an accident if not your life, anyone who says never is just plain lying.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by EA2BA

Yes but a bad decision that could not be corrected due to under powered car is my point, how many times have you made a decision to reliase you are in trouble and good squirt of the acclerator saved an accident if not your life, anyone who says never is just plain lying.

True, but accidents do happen.

I have been in that situation, but only because I know I can get myself out it if it was to go pear shaped.

[Polyal]

Oh and also, before anyone harks up about performance cars having better handling and braking capabilities, I obviously understand this; but you have to make laws for the lowest common person out there.

Finally, I do acknowledge that there are PLENTY of fine and good P platers out there, but its the old catch 22, do something and try, or do nothing and watch....

[Outbackjack]

When will the dumb bastards we loosley refer to as polititions realise that a structured education course must be introduced for all new drivers. Just like pilot training, take the student out and scare the living crap out of them in controlled environment so they can see what it is like to have little or no control over the vehicle that they are driving. Teach them to recover and teach them how driving under certain conditions can very quickly affect you health.

But no, all we get is more draconion laws that do nothing to save lives, but do bolster the gov coffers. :

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Oh and also, before anyone harks up about performance cars having better handling and braking capabilities, I obviously understand this; but you have to make laws for the lowest common person out there.

Finally, I do acknowledge that there are PLENTY of fine and good P platers out there, but its the old catch 22, do something and try, or do nothing and watch....

I agree with what you are saying. But if we had a proper training course that weeded out the ones that really are not smart enough to drive safley, then so be it. It happens in pilot training. Very early in your training you are placed in a high stress situation called the circuit. With touch and goes, glide approach's, EFATO, and other dastardly things thrust apon you. It soon becomes aparent to the instructer who can and who can't cope. They are usually told in the nicest way that perhaps flying is not for you. Drivers licensing should be the same.

We need this type of intense training in Australia. Until we get it, the road toll will never come down. : again!!

Another thing Id like to point out - How many of these deaths were because of a P-Plater driver?

In NSW, 51 people aged between 17 and 20 have been killed during the first eight months of this year.

51 people aged 17-20 were killed. Doesn't state whether they were a driver killed, killed by a direct fault of a P-plater death or whether they were a passenger to an older person.

In Victoria, where the minimum age for P-plate licence holders is 18, seven drivers aged 17 to 20 were killed in the first seven months of this year.

This actually states P-plater drivers

[Longreach]

I have to agree with BlackLS, about how many of the deaths were actually caused by the P plater.

I myself as a P Plater, will admit that i do make mistakes, but as a whole out of all the people i know on P's there is possibly 1 that is an actual ********.

With more structured hours with a licenced instructor thats fine, but with it being roughly $50 for either 30 minute or 1 hour blocks, i can't remember the exact number as it was quite some time ago that i did mine. But when you look at how many young people go out and spend few dollars on a car as more expensive cars are to much, then how is having to spend anohter 10 hours with an instructor going to help?? It will simply make it even more difficult for some people to even get a licence.

I'm not saying a licence is a right, i agree that it is a privilage. But your financial situation shouldn't make it that much easyer.

I personally think the flaw is in the logbook test, in WA atleast. It is way to easy to pass, i can name two people that failed on points, but because they both cried at the end of there test the person went back through and 'found' them a couple of marks to help them pass. Not to mention a lack of stuff being tested, when i went for my log book i wasn't even required to parrel park, all i had to do was pull into target car park do a park next to 1 car, not even between 2, and that was all the parking i was required to do. Never spent any time in real traffic all on back streets..

So possibly that is somthing which should be dealt with.

Pat

Originally Posted by Longreach

I have to agree with BlackLS, about how many of the deaths were actually caused by the P plater.

I myself as a P Plater, will admit that i do make mistakes, but as a whole out of all the people i know on P's there is possibly 1 that is an actual ********.

With more structured hours with a licenced instructor thats fine, but with it being roughly $50 for either 30 minute or 1 hour blocks, i can't remember the exact number as it was quite some time ago that i did mine. But when you look at how many young people go out and spend few dollars on a car as more expensive cars are to much, then how is having to spend anohter 10 hours with an instructor going to help?? It will simply make it even more difficult for some people to even get a licence.

I'm not saying a licence is a right, i agree that it is a privilage. But your financial situation shouldn't make it that much easyer.

I personally think the flaw is in the logbook test, in WA atleast. It is way to easy to pass, i can name two people that failed on points, but because they both cried at the end of there test the person went back through and 'found' them a couple of marks to help them pass. Not to mention a lack of stuff being tested, when i went for my log book i wasn't even required to parrel park, all i had to do was pull into target car park do a park next to 1 car, not even between 2, and that was all the parking i was required to do. Never spent any time in real traffic all on back streets..

So possibly that is somthing which should be dealt with.

Pat

Yep the testing is too easy, and driving instructors (who themselves state they are there only to "make you pass", not teach you to drive) are about $50 for 30 mins.

I agree, there are some absolute ******** P-platers out there, moreso than other drivers. But to punish all of them is a bit harsh. Much stronger testing and driver training may get hoons-to-be to calm down a bit. Is there an answer?

[4.9 EF Futura]

How can they possibly make conclusions with such small sample sizes?

Geez, that sounds awful - i realise we're talking about the lives of young people here, but the fact remains that the numbers we're talking about here (50 something at the most??) can not be statistically relevant.

The data is useless and does not favour nor oppose the measures currently being taken. You cant possibly draw conclusions from 50 observations. Let's hope our lawmakers have a better comprehension of statistical relevance than Mr Scruby does.

[4Vman]

Ive seen these threads pop up too often in the past 2 years, sadly i doubt even education or power restrictions will put a mature sensible head on some of these young drivers....
Fearless, reckless, contemptuous and cavillier attitudes expressed by some of our younger inexperienced drivers are probably representitive of the attitudes of the small minority of young drivers who end up in serious road accidents...

Unfortunatly as a group young drivers/P Platers stick out as a high risk, its a FACT.. Yes good young drivers get tarred with the same brush, but there's no point young drivers complaining about it, the best way to counter that perception (or fact) in my opinion is to just do the right thing on the roads all the time without grizzling or complaining and accept a bit of humble pie.. "earn your stripes" i guess.

Apart from that I don't have the answers.. which is frustrating.

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive seen these threads pop up too often in the past 2 years, sadly i doubt even education or power restrictions will put a mature sensible head on some of these young drivers....
Fearless, reckless, contemptuous and cavillier attitudes expressed by some of our younger inexperienced drivers are probably representitive of the attitudes of the small minority of young drivers who end up in serious road accidents...

Unfortunatly as a group young drivers/P Platers stick out as a high risk, its a FACT.. Yes good young drivers get tarred with the same brush, but there's no point young drivers complaining about it, the best way to counter that perception (or fact) in my opinion is to just do the right thing on the roads all the time without grizzling or complaining and accept a bit of humble pie.. "earn your stripes" i guess.

Apart from that I don't have the answers.. which is frustrating.

Very valid point.

The fact of the matter is, you will have young people who will push the boundaries. Nothing you can do can prevent this. What you need to do is prevent them from killing themselves or those around them. If you can redirect this desire for adrenaline to an environment where the likelihood of injury or death is small, then you will reduce the amount of young people dying not just on the roads but from drug abuse etc.

For example. Would you go and do burnouts on the road if you had your own burnout pad at home?

I'm not saying this is the answer but i'm suggesting a train of thought.

Another thing to remember is that inexperienced drivers have little to no idea on how to prevent accidents let alone get themselves out of trouble when the s***hits the fan. The National Road Safety Study in 2001 released a report pointing out that >60% of total fatalities on Australian Roads were caused by driver's/vehicle's inability to cope with the Road Conditions and <20% of total fatalities caused by speeding and driver behaviour. Go figure...

[Polyal]

Actually thats a good point about the instructor costs, I remember I had to pay ~$100 per lesson (1 hour). That hurts alot of families, espicially when you need atleast 6 lessons to pass, well thats how many I took anyway.

EDIT: then add the ~$200 when you pass for the licence.

Perhaps a government rebate would work? A certian percentage? It would help ALOT!.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Actually thats a good point about the instructor costs, I remember I had to pay ~$100 per lesson (1 hour). That hurts alot of families, espicially when you need atleast 6 lessons to pass, well thats how many I took anyway.

EDIT: then add the ~$200 when you pass for the licence.

Perhaps a government rebate would work? A certian percentage? It would help ALOT!.

That is not alot of money, when you consider the responsibility that the new driver is taking on once he/she has passed the "test". It is too easy to get a license in this country.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

That is not alot of money, when you consider the responsibility that the new driver is taking on once he/she has passed the "test". It is too easy to get a license in this country.

Yes but then if you say that there must be atleast, just for arguements sake, 15 lessons done with a licenced instructor then its going to help a little perhaps?

There not going to be one easily solution, and the pilot example, while good, just isn't going to work. Its would take to long, and is to costly perhaps....

How is it any different in other countries?

edit: ~$800 for a licence is alot of money for some families.

[4.9 EF Futura]

It's not like driver attitude (particularly young males) is a "new thing". If anything, the stories i hear from my old man... and from my friend's parents... suggests to me that they were 10 times more reckless than the nutters who started driving around the same time i did.

Young, testosterone filled guys... behind the wheel of a car. No amount of education, enforcement, government spending or pedestrian lobbyists will remove that element... unless you stop them from driving altogether... which is a little unrealistic.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

It's not like driver attitude (particularly young males) is a "new thing". If anything, the stories i hear from my old man... and from my friend's parents... suggests to me that they were 10 times more reckless than the nutters who started driving around the same time i did.

Young, testosterone filled guys... behind the wheel of a car. No amount of education, enforcement, government spending or pedestrian lobbyists will remove that element... unless you stop them from driving altogether... which is a little unrealistic.

Yeap thats true, but it also seems that these days alot of P platers have access to cars that are potentailly alot more deadly then yester-year.

Just go ask your parents what kind of car they had no there P's, the vast majority would be little cars that would need alot of persuasion to get completely out of control. OK there not as safe as what we have now, but potentially because they were so gutless that could have helped?

And theres another factor, who are these parents that let there kids buy bloody skylines etc etc. I know when I have kids that aint happening, no matter how well off I might be at the time.

Thing is, for the money you could potentially pay, you really aren't getting good education.

A $500 weekend driver training course should be your P-plate test. Where you actually have hazard tests, recover test, emergency braking test, as well as the ususal road test. This should also be avaliable to pay in installments

[Twisted]

Something that they also dont understand is that an excel can do over 100km/h, it just takes longer to get there but it is capable of that speed.

[bessxg]

What does everyone think about graphic ad campaigns? Do you reckon they have much of an effect? What about on the effect on the"non-hoons"? Is it fair for them?

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by bessxg

What does everyone think about graphic ad campaigns? Do you reckon they have much of an effect? What about on the effect on the"non-hoons"? Is it fair for them?

Meh they do nothing, a complete waste of cash. You see worse at the movies or in a video game...lol

I agree BlackLS, that a driving course is a must. But I can also see that leading to cocky drivers thinking that just because they passed that means that they are even better than before; but again, its better than nothing.

Why the heck there isn't a government owned driver education facility is beyond me.
:

Toughening of laws and the injustice it places on those who do the right thing is just a fact of life, the minority spoil it for the majority.

But what is it spoiling exactly? The fact you cant have a turbo on you P's? Big deal! If it has the potental to save lives then why the heck not!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Meh they do nothing, a complete waste of cash. You see worse at the movies or in a video game...lol

I agree BlackLS, that a driving course is a must. But I can also see that leading to cocky drivers thinking that just because they passed that means that they are even better than before; but again, its better than nothing.

Why the heck there isn't a government owned driver education facility is beyond me.
:

Toughening of laws and the injustice it places on those who do the right thing is just a fact of life, the minority spoil it for the majority.

But what is it spoiling exactly? The fact you cant have a turbo on you P's? Big deal! If it has the potental to save lives then why the heck not!

You can't blame the govt, you can teach and train people all you like to be a decent safe driver, you can restrict power access too but you can't stop them running a red light, or drag racing to 160kph and running into someone else, or swerving on a wet road for fun or tailgating etc etc... thats a behavioural or "attitude" issue largely controlled by maturity... its not just a skills issue.

I think allot of blame needs to be focused back to the parents and how they instill maturity and sound driving attitude into their kids...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You can't blame the govt, you can teach and train people all you like to be a decent safe driver, but you can't stop him running a red light, or drag racing to 160kph and running into someone else, thats a behavioural or "attitude" issue largely controlled by maturity... its not a skills issue.

I didn't mean it in that sense, what I meant was that if education is part of the answer, then why doesn't the government become more pro-active.

As I said in my first post, fools will be fools, there is not much you can do about that.

But, with simple law changes like no passengers after 10PM for example, then when that P plater wraps himself around a pole, it will be a single fatality instead of multiple.

Or maybe that accident might be stopped all togther, as it possibley could have been peer pressure or "showing off" that started it all in the first place.

There are so many variables, but something should be atleast trialed to see if it makes a difference.