Powershift data logs and P0715

[Mondaveo]

This will be a long post, so my thanks in advance to those who read to the end.

The story so far: In December last year the car experienced a temporary loss of drive with "Transmission Limited Function" message. Ford reported there were no trouble codes stored, so were unable to provide a diagnosis. The car also occasionally exhibits weird transmission shifting behaviour usually in 1st/2nd gear, such as harsh engagement (shunting) and momentary disengagement (hesitation or balking) of drive.

In April I bought an OBDLink MX and have been using FORScan on my smartphone to stream and log live data from the car's computer as I drive around. I wanted to be prepared in case the car ever breaks down again so I can see exactly what the error state is. I was also hoping that examining the data might give some insight into the health of the transmission sensors which have been known to fail causing the aberrant shifting behaviour as a symptom. I'm not sure if I've proven anything yet but I wanted to share the following for discussion.

I've been mainly concerned with logging the following PIDs (Parameter IDs) exposed via the TCM:

• RPM is engine speed, naturally in revs per minute.
• GISS is the Gearbox Input Shaft Speed sensor value and is also in revs/min. This is presumably the shaft driven by the engine through the clutch(es).
• VSS is the gearbox output speed sensor value and is in km/h.
• GEAR_SEL is the currently selected gearbox gear which I've normalised to the range -2 thru 6 (0 for neutral, -1 for reverse, -2 for the explicit error value anything unexpected).
• TGT_GEAR is "Target Gear" which I expected would be the value of the gear that the electronic brain is anticipating will be requested next.

  ○ We are told one of the features of a dual-clutch transmission is it always has two gears selected, but only one clutch engaged; by pre-selecting the next gear on the other clutch, changes can be lightning fast as it just swaps clutches. In practice though, this PID seems to generally sit at "GEAR_SEL+1" (and even goes to Reverse when the current gear reaches 6th!), preceding the current gear just a little bit, so I'm not too sure what he represents.
  ○ It could be that Powershift, being less of a bleeding-edge performance product, just omits prediction algorithms for downshifting. Certainly in most driving it's only the upshifts you'll notice, as downshifts are usually masked by braking.

I've been smooshing this all together into composite graphs like the one below. This shows a typical trace of accelerating from (near-)stationary to 80kph, maintaining that speed for a bit, and then braking back down to about 20 kph.



At the leftmost end, GISS starts off low (not quite zero as we were crawling in traffic) and rises to meet RPM as the clutch is fed in. You can see the characteristic sawtooth pattern of GISS and RPM as the car shifts through the gears.

Between shifts, GISS matches fairly closely to RPM but I've noticed at 100kph and below there is a discrepancy of about 10-20 revs/min when the transmission is loaded. When I'm accelerating or maintaining speed, engine RPM will be 10-20 higher than GISS, and when coasting and engine braking GISS will go 10-20 above RPM. You can just about see this on my chart, at the areas labelled Accelerating and Coasting. When I get up to 110kph, GISS and RPM become closely matched. It seems to me that there isn't enough clamping force in the clutch(es) at speeds below 110kph (or more accurately, the corresponding RPM which is almost 2000) and it's slipping the clutch. Does this seem like it could be a concern? I've read that an increase in viscosity of the transmission fluid (from impurities or wrong type) can cause the clutch to slip, but my car is only halfway to its next change (done at 60K, odo 93K). I'm not happy with the thought that it's constantly slipping though so should I be considering an early service?

Apart from the GISS and RPM, there's no aberrant behaviour in the example above. Generally, the Powershift works perfectly for me 95+% of the time. When it is acting up, what I get is stumbling and lurching behaviour, like any of the following: not in gear when it's needed; drops out of gear momentarily; goes for the wrong gear; shunts roughly into gear.

So the Sunday before last, the car had a very rough day. In six trips, I had gearbox events across three of them.

On the third trip of the day, while moving off from the lights on an uphill incline among very slow-moving traffic, the car suddenly disengages drive causing the engine to free rev. It then engaged again abruptly; hard enough to chirp the front tyres under power. I've had it happen before, but this was the most uncomfortable.

I looked through the logged data and found what I believe is the record from that event, you can see the RPM spike and a bump in the VSS.



On the fifth trip, it seemed to be mis-shifting at every second intersection and traffic light down the main street. I gathered up what I believe to be the three instances I could feel. They are marked by a spike in the RPM and flattening of VSS as the gearbox disengages, followed by RPM going squiggly as it re-engages drive in a usually un-graceful manner.



I can't see any evidence in this for why it happens. I thought perhaps I would see GISS going squiggly confirming the sensor going haywire. About all I can say is that it seems unrelated to actual gear changes.

Speaking of the sensor, at day's end it had thrown the diagnostic trouble code P0715 to the TCM. Interestingly enough, I know from my scan log that it threw the code during the sixth trip when, as far as I was concerned, it was actually changing gears just fine.

(OK) [23:22:07.308] Connection to vehicle has been established
(OK) [23:22:10.187] TCM - Transmission Control Module

(OK) [23:45:54.085] Connection to vehicle has been established
(OK) [23:45:56.192] TCM - Transmission Control Module
(WARN) [23:45:57.472] DTCs in TCM: P0715:2F-26

===TCM DTC P0715:2F-26===
Code: P0715 - Turbine/Input Shaft Speed Sensor A Circuit

Additional Fault Symptom:
- Signal Erratic

Status:
- DTC Present at Time of Request
- Malfunction Indicator Lamp is Off for this DTC

Module: Transmission Control Module
===END TCM===

This is the third time since April that I've seen (and cleared) the P0715. I'm wondering at what point I need to consider this a problem that'll need to be $$$rectified$$$?

Thoughts?

[rondeo]

Oops!

[rondeo]

The first thing I would do is have the FLUID LEVEL checked.
How to check the fluid level:

Car level. Remove LH front wheel and restore level. Get gbox to 35 deg C.
Go through all selector positions 20s each. Place container and remove level check plug. Allow fluid (if any) to flow until it slows to a drip. Check fluid for contamination. Add fluid in 250ml lots until fluid flows again and slows to a drip. Replace plugs etc.

It's not a difficult DIY job. Just the details of the procedure need to be known. A mechanic should be able to do it in 30min? Unless there is evidence of particle contamination there should be no need to change the gbox fluid.

That's where I'd start, then see.

Probable reason for wrong fluid level: human error.

[rondeo]

I usually have 'hill start assist' turned off. I wonder if it can cause bad behaviour when crawling uphill.

[Mondaveo]

Linking for reference:
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11442105

Okay, I think I can try doing the fluid level check, or getting a mechanic to do it for me (depends on the price difference after buying fluid). Can the car remain on the ground while I do it? Is there a proper way of checking that it's level?

I doubt the Hill Launch Assist could have much to do with it; my understanding is it just holds the brake for you (so you don't need to keep holding the foot pedal) until you start moving.

----
So I discovered today that it seems the car is throwing P0715 more frequently than I suspected, and also that it apparently sometimes (often?) clears the code on its own. I didn't actually recall clearing the P0715:2F-26 myself, but figured that I must have.

Today drove to the shop, and on arrival saw it had stored P0715:2F-27. After restarting the code was gone, but then after arriving at the mall found it had P0715:2F-2E. I think that one must have cleared as well, as now I have P0715:2F-28, but I think this one must have persisted as it says "Previously set DTC".

I think I'm heading toward the inevitable

[rondeo]

If the fluid level is checked it's a good idea to measure what comes out and goes in so you know if there was an issue there.

Doing the check yourself is maybe a bit harder than I said. You need to be able to safely support the car at the right level with a wheel off. I park the car on a known level surface and put a circular bubble level somewhere on the car, then jack to keep the bubble level.

Doing it with one jack is potentially dangerous, one mistake with the footbrake and you're lurching forward.
It's easy for me because I use two trolley jacks up front and lift the rear as well. And I've plenty of time to muck around.

It does sound like a new TCM if you are getting P0715. That's the Ford manual injunction anyway. I suggested checking fluid level as a first step in general with gbox issues, but seems to me less likely to be connected with the P0715.

That's my googling and guessing anyway.

[rondeo]

On the ground fluid level check:

Warm up the car.
Park on a level surface.
Connect to Forscan and check temp is between 35 and 45 deg.
Go through the gears, 20 sec each.
Raise LH front and remove wheel.
Lower the car to a stand (level).
Place container under level check plug.
Remove air filter housing.
Remove filler plug.
Remove level check plug (2ft ext. handy).
Allow check bore to drain to a drip.
Add fluid in 250ml lots until flow becomes a drip.
Replace plugs etc.

This check should only be necessary if there are doubts about the gbox performance, or the fluid is being changed.

I found the most annoying thing is removing the airbox.

I'm planning to get rid of this annoyance by using a custom made funnel .....

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

This will be a long post, so my thanks in advance to those who read to the end.

The story so far: In December last year the car experienced a temporary loss of drive with "Transmission Limited Function" message. Ford reported there were no trouble codes stored, so were unable to provide a diagnosis. The car also occasionally exhibits weird transmission shifting behaviour usually in 1st/2nd gear, such as harsh engagement (shunting) and momentary disengagement (hesitation or balking) of drive.

In April I bought an OBDLink MX and have been using FORScan on my smartphone to stream and log live data from the car's computer as I drive around. I wanted to be prepared in case the car ever breaks down again so I can see exactly what the error state is. I was also hoping that examining the data might give some insight into the health of the transmission sensors which have been known to fail causing the aberrant shifting behaviour as a symptom. I'm not sure if I've proven anything yet but I wanted to share the following for discussion.

I've been mainly concerned with logging the following PIDs (Parameter IDs) exposed via the TCM:

• RPM is engine speed, naturally in revs per minute.
• GISS is the Gearbox Input Shaft Speed sensor value and is also in revs/min. This is presumably the shaft driven by the engine through the clutch(es).
• VSS is the gearbox output speed sensor value and is in km/h.
• GEAR_SEL is the currently selected gearbox gear which I've normalised to the range -2 thru 6 (0 for neutral, -1 for reverse, -2 for the explicit error value anything unexpected).
• TGT_GEAR is "Target Gear" which I expected would be the value of the gear that the electronic brain is anticipating will be requested next.

  ○ We are told one of the features of a dual-clutch transmission is it always has two gears selected, but only one clutch engaged; by pre-selecting the next gear on the other clutch, changes can be lightning fast as it just swaps clutches. In practice though, this PID seems to generally sit at "GEAR_SEL+1" (and even goes to Reverse when the current gear reaches 6th!), preceding the current gear just a little bit, so I'm not too sure what he represents.
  ○ It could be that Powershift, being less of a bleeding-edge performance product, just omits prediction algorithms for downshifting. Certainly in most driving it's only the upshifts you'll notice, as downshifts are usually masked by braking.

I've been smooshing this all together into composite graphs like the one below. This shows a typical trace of accelerating from (near-)stationary to 80kph, maintaining that speed for a bit, and then braking back down to about 20 kph.

image

At the leftmost end, GISS starts off low (not quite zero as we were crawling in traffic) and rises to meet RPM as the clutch is fed in. You can see the characteristic sawtooth pattern of GISS and RPM as the car shifts through the gears.

Between shifts, GISS matches fairly closely to RPM but I've noticed at 100kph and below there is a discrepancy of about 10-20 revs/min when the transmission is loaded. When I'm accelerating or maintaining speed, engine RPM will be 10-20 higher than GISS, and when coasting and engine braking GISS will go 10-20 above RPM. You can just about see this on my chart, at the areas labelled Accelerating and Coasting. When I get up to 110kph, GISS and RPM become closely matched. It seems to me that there isn't enough clamping force in the clutch(es) at speeds below 110kph (or more accurately, the corresponding RPM which is almost 2000) and it's slipping the clutch. Does this seem like it could be a concern? I've read that an increase in viscosity of the transmission fluid (from impurities or wrong type) can cause the clutch to slip, but my car is only halfway to its next change (done at 60K, odo 93K). I'm not happy with the thought that it's constantly slipping though so should I be considering an early service?

Apart from the GISS and RPM, there's no aberrant behaviour in the example above. Generally, the Powershift works perfectly for me 95+% of the time. When it is acting up, what I get is stumbling and lurching behaviour, like any of the following: not in gear when it's needed; drops out of gear momentarily; goes for the wrong gear; shunts roughly into gear.

So the Sunday before last, the car had a very rough day. In six trips, I had gearbox events across three of them.

On the third trip of the day, while moving off from the lights on an uphill incline among very slow-moving traffic, the car suddenly disengages drive causing the engine to free rev. It then engaged again abruptly; hard enough to chirp the front tyres under power. I've had it happen before, but this was the most uncomfortable.

I looked through the logged data and found what I believe is the record from that event, you can see the RPM spike and a bump in the VSS.

image

On the fifth trip, it seemed to be mis-shifting at every second intersection and traffic light down the main street. I gathered up what I believe to be the three instances I could feel. They are marked by a spike in the RPM and flattening of VSS as the gearbox disengages, followed by RPM going squiggly as it re-engages drive in a usually un-graceful manner.

image

I can't see any evidence in this for why it happens. I thought perhaps I would see GISS going squiggly confirming the sensor going haywire. About all I can say is that it seems unrelated to actual gear changes.

Speaking of the sensor, at day's end it had thrown the diagnostic trouble code P0715 to the TCM. Interestingly enough, I know from my scan log that it threw the code during the sixth trip when, as far as I was concerned, it was actually changing gears just fine.



This is the third time since April that I've seen (and cleared) the P0715. I'm wondering at what point I need to consider this a problem that'll need to be $$$rectified$$$?

Thoughts?

Fair bit to digest there!

Just to clarify the picture on speed sensors using what written information I have:

There are three speed sensors which are part of the TCM. They work on the Hall effect.

P0715 relates to the first, which is on the clutch drum housing, i.e. before the clutches. As Manchu has shown in photo, it is on the end of a long wire going to the TCM.

The second is the sensor for shaft 1 (clutch 1, gears 1,3,5 and R).

The third is the sensor for shaft 2
(clutch 2, gears 2,4,6).

According to one of the manuals the first sensor signal serves as a variable for calculating the slip of the clutches. Looks like P0841/6 'Torque plausibility failure' for clutches 1 and 2 respectively might be the DTC for slipping clutch?

Not much help I know, just what I'm reading.

Ford diagnostic equipment needed?

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

Fair bit to digest there!

Just to clarify the picture on speed sensors using what written information I have:

There are three speed sensors which are part of the TCM. They work on the Hall effect.

P0715 relates to the first, which is on the clutch drum housing, i.e. before the clutches. As Manchu has shown in photo, it is on the end of a long wire going to the TCM.

The second is the sensor for shaft 1 (clutch 1, gears 1,3,5 and R).

The third is the sensor for shaft 2
(clutch 2, gears 2,4,6).

According to one of the manuals the first sensor signal serves as a variable for calculating the slip of the clutches. Looks like P0841/6 'Torque plausibility failure' for clutches 1 and 2 respectively might be the DTC for slipping clutch?

Not much help I know, just what I'm reading.

Ford diagnostic equipment needed?

Thanks, it is interesting to know. I have wondered why in FORScan there is only one GISS reading exposed on the TCM, given there are two shafts. I had thought it would allow me to see the raw values of what you say are in fact three sensors, but it doesn't. Presumably there's some aggregation going on to give the one GISS reading?

Originally Posted by tce

I had a similar problem with my 2012 on the odd time at roundaboutsome it would drive like a Lerner and when travelling at random speeds ( above 60ish) it would just hang out in no gear then (thinking about it) it would engage a gear. It ended up been a speed sensor in the gear box (came up with gearbox malfunction light) and was replaced under warranty.

Cheers, was that in a Falcon or Mondeo? From what I've read around the Internet, it's the same across a wide range of makes and models. P0715 = gearbox input sensor. Some people report DIY replacing their sensor and fixing the issue for under $100; unfortunately, the Getrag DCT in Mondeo is all but unserviceable with parts and labour running to thousands of dollars as we've seen via a few members of this board.




I'm in two minds of how to progress on this (assuming the car remains drivable and doesn't get worse).

Take it to Ford dealer now with the P0715 stored, tell them what I've observed, ask them to diagnose/confirm and quote repair.

Or continue to monitor and wait till its scheduled service time in October, take it to Ford dealer with P0715 stored, and either ask them to investigate or maybe even see if they pick it up and offer a quote for repair.

In either case I'd likely then be trying to win concessions from Ford to minimise the repair cost, probably by invoking Australian Consumer Law that the car isn't fit for purpose as it should last a reasonable amount of time - usually quoted as 10 years for transmission - and is exacerbated by the fact the design clearly doesn't allow for repairs to be done economically.

Any chances besides none and Buckley's?

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Thanks, it is interesting to know. I have wondered why in FORScan there is only one GISS reading exposed on the TCM, given there are two shafts. I had thought it would allow me to see the raw values of what you say are in fact three sensors, but it doesn't. Presumably there's some aggregation going on to give the one GISS reading?

This can get a bit confusing.

Here's how I think it goes ATM:

Forscan has RPM, GISS, VSS.

The first speed sensor is detecting the engine output speed via the clutch housing. That's RPM. But in the P0715 description the words 'input shaft' are used, so a terminology issue.

The other two speed sensors are detecting the two gearbox input shaft speeds, which are driven by clutches 1 & 2. These are coaxial shafts.

There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed (via output shaft 2). One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.

So ATM I'd say P0715 refers to a fault in the RPM (aka 'input shaft') sensing system, the sensor for which is dangling in Manchu's photo.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

This can get a bit confusing.

Here's how I think it goes ATM:

Forscan has RPM, GISS, VSS.

The first speed sensor is detecting the engine output speed via the clutch housing. That's RPM. But in the P0715 description the words 'input shaft' are used, so a terminology issue.

The other two speed sensors are detecting the two gearbox input shaft speeds, which are driven by clutches 1 & 2. These are coaxial shafts.

There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed (via output shaft 2). One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.

So ATM I'd say P0715 refers to a fault in the RPM (aka 'input shaft') sensing system, the sensor for which is dangling in Manchu's photo.

Ah, thank you my man! That changes the interpretation of my graphs and could be a breakthrough. If input sensor = "RPM" then I should see any evidence of the erratic signal on that line, rather than the line for "GISS" as I'd thought. And indeed I do have a squiggly trace for "RPM" in many instances where the gearbox shifted awkwardly. I had attributed that as a result of changing engine load with the clutch dis/engaging but it looks like it could be the evidence I was seeking.

The interesting thing now would be to compare the "RPM" exposed by the TCM with a recording of the actual RPM at the engine (ECU?). Unfortunately I don't think FORScan allows me to live stream from two different modules at once...

(BTW, I think you mean Bundy's photo?)

[manchu]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

(BTW, I think you mean Bundy's photo?)

definitely not my photo.

[Highway cruser]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Ah, thank you my man! That changes the interpretation of my graphs and could be a breakthrough. If input sensor = "RPM" then I should see any evidence of the erratic signal on that line, rather than the line for "GISS" as I'd thought. And indeed I do have a squiggly trace for "RPM" in many instances where the gearbox shifted awkwardly. I had attributed that as a result of changing engine load with the clutch dis/engaging but it looks like it could be the evidence I was seeking.

The interesting thing now would be to compare the "RPM" exposed by the TCM with a recording of the actual RPM at the engine (ECU?). Unfortunately I don't think FORScan allows me to live stream from two different modules at once...

(BTW, I think you mean Bundy's photo?)

morning gents,

I've been having issues with harsh shifting for a long time and have followed this thread for almost as long. Having some time to spare at the moment I thought I would have a further look into the issue I'm having as it doesn't look like anyone has actually done a repair/fix on this yet, apart from sending to a gearbox specialist or selling the car, neither have I but I believe I have worked a few things out.

I'm getting P0715 basically all the time as well as the harsh shifting and jerking on take off, but have only ever had limited transmission function come up on the dash once.

On a slightly different note, what's everyone's thoughts about the chances of my issue being related to contamination on the GISS sensor?

From the graphs I believe the RPM line in the opening graphs will be coming from the bell housing that then plugs into the TCM. The GISS is a sensor in the mechatronic unit which can be referred to as the input speed shaft sensor. I'm pretty sure this is the sensor that I'm having problems with as well as Mondaveo had. This is based on the fact that when the car is stopped you can see on the graphs the value for the GISS goes to 0 RPM, meaning that both clutches are off and no drive is going to the gearbox. This is based on graphs I have taken.

Based on the fault code and the GISS sensor being in the mechatronic unit I believe that the reason that Mondaveo was quoted for coolant is that the mechatronic unit can be removed from the gearbox without taking the gearbox out, it does mean draining the coolant, hence the need for coolant on the quote. However the quote I believe shows the wrong sensor. based on the pictures of the part they quoted, this is the RPM sensor on the bell housing. At the moment I haven't tracked down the correct part number for the GISS.

It seems that the GISS sensor only reads input shaft 2. Based on both output shafts being connected to the main diff gear, both input shafts will be turning while either of the clutches or any forward gear is being used as the there's always a second gear selected. I can only assume that when its using a gear on input shaft 1 it works out the correct speed of input shaft 2 based on the gear ratio between the gear in use and the next selected gear.

I have tracked down a series of YouTube videos of the mechatronic unit being removed for a different issue, but it does show how to remove it, however not how to change the GISS sensor. link to the first video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxCEdxT2_Rk

I've also tracked down a manual for the 6DCT450, I've tried to attach to this post but it didn't work for some reason, but if you want a copy let me know.

It would be interesting to hear peoples thoughts on this.

[tce]

I had a similar problem with my 2012 on the odd time at roundaboutsome it would drive like a Lerner and when travelling at random speeds ( above 60ish) it would just hang out in no gear then (thinking about it) it would engage a gear. It ended up been a speed sensor in the gear box (came up with gearbox malfunction light) and was replaced under warranty.

[Mondaveo]

Additional thoughts and observations:

The charge for the inspection work was $72.50. It's interesting that I paid over $150 last time when they failed to diagnose why the car stopped, but this time when they have a answer (and after keeping the car for two days) the cost is half that. Maybe they felt bad for me?

When the service manager phoned with the outcome, he seemed prepared to put the case through as a warranty claim (as he started going through available dates to follow up). Only when I asked what kind of cost were we looking at did he utter "Oh, it's not in warranty any more". He then said he'd do up a quote and call Harrier to find out if this was the kind of thing they'd cover, but backtracked on the latter once I mentioned I was second owner. Should've kept my mouth shut?

The service quote appears to list two output shaft sensors, but the TSB points to input sensor. I queried this and it was suggested that the different description may be down to an error in their parts database, but "this was definitely the order list for that TSB". I'm not the expert but somehow I'm not confident?

[manchu]

It's sad to say but you've probably got off lightly. It's expensive for what it is but how many other fixes with new parts for this Trans. would be less than ~$3500.

Labor does seem high. My new merchatronic unit was $1070 in labor to fit.

Edit:

Why do you need coolant?

On the upside. My invoice shows 7l Trans fluid and yours is only 6!!

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Additional thoughts and observations:

The service quote appears to list two output shaft sensors, but the TSB points to input sensor. I queried this and it was suggested that the different description may be down to an error in their parts database, but "this was definitely the order list for that TSB". I'm not the expert but somehow I'm not confident?

Input or output? I have attempted to shed a bit of light on sensor nomenclature as used re 6DCT450. I used the service information document linked to below.


There are three speed sensors in the 6DCT450.

1) Reads the engine output shaft speed via the clutch drum. This is the sensor in Bundy's photo, since it has a long wire on it which goes between the tcm and clutch housing. This may also be referred to as an input shaft speed sensor since it reads the input to the complete transmission. Historically referred to as input turbine speed sensor hence the P0715 description. Also referred to a 'damper speed sensor' in Ford service documents.

2) Reads the speed of input shaft 1 connected to clutch 1. It is referred to as an input shaft because it provides the torque from the clutch into the gearbox. The sensor actually reads input shaft 1 speed via output shaft 2. So again potential for confusion dure to terminology.

3) Reads speed of input shaft 2 connected to clutch 2. Again an input shaft because it carries the torque into the gearbox. Input shafts 1 and 2 are concentric, ie one inside the other.

Hope that is correct!

What I have yet to learn is why the Ford service manual says install a new tcm for P0175.

[rondeo]

What doesn't seem right to me is that there was a TSB on the issue, which means Ford knew there was a problem.

It would be interesting to know exactly how many customers have had the same issue, but of course it's a confidential business matter. Let's concentrate on marketing and flashy advertisements . . .
And of course the customer doesn't need any technical information . . .

In utopia the customer gets a DVD with complete technical information pertaining to the product. I'd pay the extra $2 for the disc. How desperate can they be to need a few bucks from selling information?

Sorry for the rant, but may be interesting.

[bundybear75]

I would love to see a copy of Fords TSB 14/07. This got mentioned when I had the problem but they would not provide a copy of the bulletin.

[Mondaveo]

Sorry guys, I should've asked for a copy of the TSB and seen if they'd let me have it. Probably they'd have said no but you never know. I did ask if I could have a copy of all service records for the car, which they couldn't because of privacy issues, but the advisor did seem to be trying to be helpful as he said he'd look into whether there's any way around that.

I rang some independent transmission places today, had a couple of amicable chats (and one not so). Anyway the shop recommended by Bundy were able to indicate a price (based on prior invoice) more around what I was expecting and were even recommended by the guy from another of the shops, so reassuring at least that there's a good operator in town. First though is to try my luck through Ford owner support...

[bundybear75]

Labour seems about right 12 hours at $145 per hour.

Not sure where the other costs work out at. My parts were a fair bit less than that when mine was repaired.

[cobrin]

$3427 I said boy, I said, duck, I said chicken!!!!!!!!!!dayum sons-a-bitches

sorry to hear mondaveo

[NZ XR6]

Ford should fix it. Clearly a defective part - I can't see how wear or abuse could cause a speed sensor to fail!

[Mondaveo]

So I sat on this for a while, but eventually finished writing my letter and sent it off three weeks ago. Possibly a bit overblown at four pages + copies of inspection reports and service history, but I wanted to tell the narrative along with the what and why they need to fix.

Got a call on Thursday from my new case manager Rhiannon.
She first told me that she'd done some background research and gave a verbal confirmation that it is a "manufacturing defect" (exact words: "I spoke to Rob at <dealership> who confirmed this repair is needed to fix a manufacturing defect").
Unfortunately the result of their review process, "owing to the fact the car was purchased out of factory warranty and that the extended warranty stays with the previous owner", is that Ford is not going to provide any assistance. "Buyer beware" she said.

Disappointed, of course, but I'm not done by a long shot.

I asked for clarification, "So you're telling me it's a manufacturing defect but Ford will not fix it?" But she got defensive and refused to confirm or deny: "I will not repeat myself".
She offered that the case could be re-submitted to review (with no promises the outcome will be any different) which I requested she do. If I think of anything to add I can submit it with the case number she gave me.

I'm now trying to get in touch with the previous owner and see if they'll share their service reports with me (including the Oct service where a hesitation was reported). If I can get that I'll add it and whatever other info they can give to my case with Ford.
And in the meantime will be looking to open a dispute through Fair Trading.

[rondeo]

'She first told me that she'd done some background research and gave a verbal confirmation that it is a "manufacturing defect" (exact words: "I spoke to Rob at <dealership> who confirmed this repair is needed to fix a manufacturing defect").'

This seems upside down.
Ford has to ask dealers what the case is?
Is Ford policy determined by dealers?
Where did the dealer get the information that it is a manufacturing defect?

Rant rant, Alice in Wonderland ....

Same thing happened to me when I enquired about BMS reset. I was told the dealership said. After three dealerships gave different answers I concluded Ford didn't exist\, but has a face at the dealer,
like the Cheshire Cat.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

This seems upside down.
Ford has to ask dealers what the case is?
Is Ford policy determined by dealers?
Where did the dealer get the information that it is a manufacturing defect?

It could be upside down. I didn't mean to imply that contacting the dealer was the sole point of research (although there's no statement otherwise); it would have been at least in part to confirm my story.

The key thing for me is that she used the term "manufacturing defect". I view that as tacit admission.

I don't know what the extent of "research" was and if there were other sources. It's an interesting thought that the dealer may have primed her to use that description. Would mean they are on my side?

[rondeo]

Just seems odd to me that someone can't stand up and state the facts as they are known to Ford.

Question is, who is Ford?

Maybe 'she' knows?

I hope (confusion between desire and probability?) they are on your side,
it does seem unfair that such expensive repairs are needed so soon in the life of the car.

[Gazzzaa]

Thanks to all in this thread for their research and assistance on the whole Powershift Mondeo saga. I decided that I don't have to time or the energy to fight the huge multinational known as Ford, so I traded out of my Mondeo yesterday and drove away in a brand new Focus Sport manual last night.

I do wish everyone all the best and will follow your progress with keen interest.

[Mondaveo]

Update.

On a suggestion I contacted the NRMA's Motoring Advice service to see if they had any ideas I'd not yet explored. The lady was very helpful, although she didn't have great news. Basically, Australian Consumer Law is weaksauce; it only covers direct consumers. Because of the chain of ownership the car has been through, I am not Ford's problem; their obligation stopped with the first owner. Not to say it wasn't worth trying with my letter, but there's nothing in law to compel them to fix the fault for me.

She did have one ray of hope for me though: since the previous owner and I relied on the service history and particularly the condition report on the last service invoice (which, remember, said mentioned a hesitation but said that all was well) to agree to the sale, I could try arguing that the condition of the car was not accurately represented by Ford (who should have known there was a latent fault behind it). Still a long shot but at least it's something else I can try.

However! I've since got in touch with the previous owner, and I might have better ammo. He kindly obtained and sent through to me this complete service summary from the dealership (apparently they don't keep detailed records after 12 months). It's in reverse date order, with most recent at the top. Note the items at lines #1 and #10:



Line #1 is where I had the fault confirmed. The same entry ('operation code' and description) appears with the 45,000km service back in 2012. This would seem to confirm that they found the same issue during the warranty period, but either didn't diagnose it properly or chose not to fix it then. My understanding is that would make them still liable.

I'm pretty excited by this, although there's a lot I don't understand in this summary that worries me a little. R/O's? Adv#? Tech maybe is 'technician'? Can anyone decipher?

[NZ XR6]

Hopefully that should help your case. They probably didn't realise the significance of the fault at the time, but it would appear it was there before you bought the car. Good luck.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk