Junkies vs Hoons

[MAD]

I heard a snippet on the radio this morning about having heroin injecting rooms back the agenda for some govco. (wasnt paying that much attention) and it got me thinking...

To possess heroin is to break the law, yet there are locations available (free) for them to comfortably break the law.

Spinning your tyres on the street is illegal under the "hoon laws" but it is near on impossible to organise for a bunch of mates to get out to a skidpan to have at it and just let rip.
At best we have occasional track (circuit) days at our cost, or friday night drag racing, again at our cost.


(You'll have to excuse the use of the word hoon here, I hate the name now as it has been used to tar all car enthusiats, but we know the real meaning.)

Do 'hoons' go round robbing people of their hard earned goods to fuel their habit?
Do you cause physical harm to your body every time you spin your tyres?
Does doing a burnout alter your mental state, and potentially require resusitation?


Like I said it got me thinking and got me pretty annoyed.
How about we get some perspective in the world?

[JC]

So you want the equivalent of an injecting room for hoons - what's wrong with the drag strip - not free, but then the infrastructure costs a lot more.

And for the record, I do not agree with injecting rooms, or needle exchange programs - it's akin to opening a grog shop for underage drinkers, IMO.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by JC

So you want the equivalent of an injecting room for hoons - what's wrong with the drag strip - not free, but then the infrastructure costs a lot more.

And for the record, I do not agree with injecting rooms, or needle exchange programs - it's akin to opening a grog shop for underage drinkers, IMO.

Shame most of the tracks are in the capital cities, 600km is a long drive to have a play day.

[JC]

Originally Posted by flappist

Shame most of the tracks are in the capital cities, 600km is a long drive to have a play day.

And none in THE Capital city! Just out of curiosity, how many needle exchange places or shoot up places (legal) in your neck of the woods - as many as drag strips I'd say.

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by JC

So you want the equivalent of an injecting room for hoons - what's wrong with the drag strip - not free, but then the infrastructure costs a lot more.

And for the record, I do not agree with injecting rooms, or needle exchange programs - it's akin to opening a grog shop for underage drinkers, IMO.

I don't know about injecting rooms, hard to be for or against them, but needle exchange programs are a good thing for sure, to get their free needles they have to exchange their used ones which means less being littered on our beaches and in our parks. Having said that diabetics and others who require needles for medical reasons should not have to purchase them when if they were to say they are junkies they would get them for free.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by JC

So you want the equivalent of an injecting room for hoons - what's wrong with the drag strip - not free, but then the infrastructure costs a lot more.

It's be interesting to see - my guess is that over 10 years the drag strip would cost less when all the downstream costs are considered.

[Polyal]

Agreed mate, the bastards are only worried about one thing, stay in their job.

Which is ironic because we as the people put them there....so you would think they would be trying to do what was right and logical instead of what grabs headlines and keeps them employed long enough so they get their retirement package.

So either democracy isnt all its cracked up to be or no one can be bothered being in public service so we get the left overs to run the country.

Hows that?

edit: JC, I dont think it should be free, but hooning is an easy topic to run with and most people have been effected by road trauma, or know someone who has..so they play with that.

[Fev]

Because hooning kills more people than drugs, alcohol, smoking and fast food combined - didn't you get the memo?

While i understand your point and would like it if someone in gov't decided to give us some massive skid pans in across the country to play around on, it's on a different level to injecting rooms

[wrongwaynorris]

(You'll have to excuse the use of the word hoon here, I hate the name now as it has been used to tar all car enthusiats, but we know the real meaning.)

I think you'd be surprised at just how few people do know the original meaning of hoon . Always makes me laugh when hearing it on the tele or radio .

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by MAD

Like I said it got me thinking and got me pretty annoyed.
How about we get some perspective in the world?

I hear what you're saying but consider that injecting rooms keeps needles off the street and goes some way into minimising diseases from being spread from their re-use.

How would you feel if you went to the beach and stepped on a used needle?

[Polyal]

MAD isnt having a crack at drug rooms or needle programs, his saying the same logic could be used to give facilities for drivers who otherwise tend to do it on the street.

Wont solve the problem but its an outlet in a safe environment.

[MAD]

Exactly, I'm not saying get rid of the injecting rooms (I dont agree with them but thats another subject)

The two examples are poles apart in terms of support.

In terms of physical action, it wouldnt be that hard, nor expensive to lay a few slabs of concrete around the place, a sign at the gate stating rules of use, a conditions of entry form to be signed, and off you go.
But good luck with that, no way would it happen without public liability insurance, complaining neighbours, etc etc.

This is my point, there are so many rules that block the ability to have an outlet for the 'hoons', but there is a free location for someone to inject themselves with an illegal drug. There's no grey area here, 100% black and white, it is illegal. Unlike the 'hoon' laws that are subject to interpretation.


If you wanted to go down another path you could probably argue that more innocent bystanders are killed by hoons than by junkies, so why the priority to the junkies?

[Linkachu]

Would you rather junkies leaving needles in the street potentially harming other or doing it in an environment no one can get hurt?

I don't agree on it, but safety is the main reason for these being set up.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Linkachu

Would you rather junkies leaving needles in the street potentially harming other or doing it in an environment no one can get hurt?

I don't agree on it, but safety is the main reason for these being set up.

I didnt go in to detail above because this topic is not about whether or not injecting rooms are good or not.
If this topic was about that, I would say that I'd like to see the needle exchange kept in place to keep the litter down.

Needle exchange = safety for public = I agree.
Injecting room = safety for junkie = I dont agree.


But this topic is not about whether or not the rooms or needle exchange are a good thing, so lets get back on topic.

[FGII-XR6]

I know it’s hard for most to understand but from someone who has worked in these programs I have seen significant community benefit and full support their retention and expansion
With the Kings cross injecting rooms it is not just inject and go, the clients interact with trained counsellors each time they attend and clients are frequently diverted into treatment with a view to breaking the addiction cycle. This approach is proving to be a valuable tool in engaging clients who would not normally seek help and is increasing the rate of presentations at treatment services. It is not just an injecting venue it is a counselling service and a crisis centre
As for needle programs I once felt the same as most people in the community till I found out some facts I am now an advocate of these programs. they are now called harm minimisation programs and that is the focus of the program. Australia has one of the lowest HIV rates in the world and Australia was one of the first countries to adopt a harm minimisation approach. Countries that commenced harm minimisation programs early have all shown significantly lower HIV rates than late adopters or countries with no programs. This dramatically reduces the burden on out health system
Many people are not aware that a large percentage of injecting drug users are victims of serious abuse as a child and they start using drugs to escape the emotional pain. By being encouraged to seek treatment they are provided the opportunity to work through these issues that have haunted them through out their lives. A lot of you probably work with people who have been through this and are now clean and leading a normal life and many of you would be surprised at who you meet in day to day life that are on a methadone program as treatment allowing them to serve you in that shop or cut your hair or fix your car.
I know it is easy to moralise but there is a much bigger picture any one of these people could be a family member or an old school friend virtually everyone in the community is in some way connected with a substance abuser or a former substance abuser ( I am including alcohol abuse here )

[GreenR]

Agreed.

"Junkies" are endangering the public by littering of needles and using in open evironments.

"Hoon's" are endangering the public (other drivers, bystanders etc) and driving irresponsible in open environments.

One group get's an outlet and the other doesn't. One reason I can think of is:
Health system costs the government. The other profits the government.

Originally Posted by au3xr6

Many people are not aware that a large percentage of injecting drug users are victims of serious abuse as a child and they start using drugs to escape the emotional pain.

Who is to say that people don't "hoon", drive dangerously and drag race to do the same thing?

[familybus]

id say the biggest prob with a skid pad in my opinion is that wouldnt it encourage more modified cars in that local area? hence more of the minority ********* carrying onto the streets and stuffin it for others?

not saying its a bad idea but yeh there will always be some one who will take to the legal way to de-tread there tyres out to the street and stuff it for those who have the self control!

maybe yeh build a few areas and crush those who get caught doin **** in the street?

[WMD351]

Hoons (+automotive enthusiasts) and junkies are just minority groups that the government can give some "special" attention to in order to win some votes.
Punish those evil hoons (+automotive enthusiasts)= win for pollies.
Show empathy and care for poor suffering junkies = win for pollies.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

A friends dad who used to drag race in the 80's rang up one of the radio stations once after he heard them banging on about "hoons" and the like.

He got on the air, proposed that they build a few drag strips / skid pans no more than 25km apart near the city so that the young kids had somewhere safe to play, and you know what?..... they cut him off the air, labeling him as someone fueling the "problem" as he wasn't having any of their agenda.

"Hoon" is a stupid media catch phrase, used like a racial slur to categorise any and everything car related, much like "terrorist" now days is used to portray anyone who might have a different agenda to the powers that be.

In war they use a blanket term for the enemy to help justify killing them, in Australia, we use blanket terms to vilify minorities and get votes at the polls.

[onfire]

I think they are entirely different types of dangers. And it's almost a little stupid to even compare the two.

It's also illegal to smash other people's windows with bricks, but I'm sure, someone's not going to build a warehouse full of windows to break, simple to stop me smashing private property.

Also to get back to burning rubber. Why you'd want to melt a set of tyres down to nothing, either illegally or on a skid pan is stupid anyway. Wow, I can spin my wheels, who cares?

[JG65TE]

free needles for em annoys me. My old lady is a diabetic n she has to pay for her needles ye these hopeless oxygen thieves get em for nothing. I think the gov should look after valuable members of society first. as for hangin some donuts, right place right time and all sweet. I have to do a wedding in my car on saturday, I wont do anything wrong but there is always a chance a over zealous boy in blue will defect me for the hell of it..... Just re read all this, guess i didnt add anything to the converstaion. But oh well

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by JG65TE

free needles for em annoys me. My old lady is a diabetic n she has to pay for her needles

who told you this??? they are free for all regardless of what you are using them for.

[JG65TE]

they are free if you walk in and pick up a "drug bag" . they aren't free if you are a diabetic that refuses to stoop to the point of looking like a druggie and grabbing a baggy.........

[FGII-XR6]

wrong again I have worked in harm minimisation and anyone can walk in and request what ever the need they don't have to get the pre packed bags they can get just the needles if they wish or just swabs.
there is no requirement to be an illicit drug user to access these service many diabetics utilise them but some are too stuck up to share the service with those in less fortunate circumstances than themselves.

Originally Posted by JG65TE

they are free if you walk in and pick up a "drug bag" . they aren't free if you are a diabetic that refuses to stoop to the point of looking like a druggie and grabbing a baggy.........

[FCleader]

In addition to what au3xr6 said, needle exchanges and injecting rooms can help.
As I discovered at uni the other day, a comparision between two cities, one that had a needle/injecting room program and one that didn't, the city without the program had an estimated 200,000 people who abuse drugs with needles, half of whom were HIV+.
In the city with the program no-one had HIV and the drug problem in the city was actually decreasing due to the fact that the program makes taking drugs boring, as it becomes clinical, so nobody new wanted to start taking drugs.
Im not saying its the best use of tax payer dollars and there are other people who should benefit before drug abusers, but these programs go beyond the usual arguments of "safety for junkies" they can have an effect on the whole community for the better in the long run.

As for the debate in this thread, a government funded skid pan is ridiculous. Roads are for transportation from one place to another not for misbehaving in your car. If you want to do skids or race go to the drags, and if there isn't one in your area then tough luck.
The reason I would think as to why junkies get more attention is because they aren't in a clear state of mind and aren't thinking properly when committing a crime, where as a 'hoon' is, they can say this action is stupid someone could get hurt, but they chose to ignor that thought.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by FCleader

In addition to what au3xr6 said, needle exchanges and injecting rooms can help.
As I discovered at uni the other day, a comparision between two cities, one that had a needle/injecting room program and one that didn't, the city without the program had an estimated 200,000 people who abuse drugs with needles, half of whom were HIV+.
In the city with the program no-one had HIV and the drug problem in the city was actually decreasing due to the fact that the program makes taking drugs boring, as it becomes clinical, so nobody new wanted to start taking drugs.
Im not saying its the best use of tax payer dollars and there are other people who should benefit before drug abusers, but these programs go beyond the usual arguments of "safety for junkies" they can have an effect on the whole community for the better in the long run.

What cities in what countries? How many of those with HIV were not users?
This sounds awfully like a 'case study' and they are never biased towards a particular outcome. (End sarcasm)

Originally Posted by FCleader

As for the debate in this thread, a government funded skid pan is ridiculous. Roads are for transportation from one place to another not for misbehaving in your car. If you want to do skids or race go to the drags, and if there isn't one in your area then tough luck.
The reason I would think as to why junkies get more attention is because they aren't in a clear state of mind and aren't thinking properly when committing a crime, where as a 'hoon' is, they can say this action is stupid someone could get hurt, but they chose to ignor that thought.

No, our roads are not made for racing, or misbehaving, nor are our parks are made for junkies to shoot up in. Yet only one gets a solution.
The other has to pay for themselves if they are lucky enough to have a facility near them.

Skidpans, drift tracks, drag strips are just ideas, subsidised gokarts could be another.



I'd like to see some stats on how many innocent people are killed each year by 'hooning' accidents. By innocent I mean the passengers of the car that was t-boned after 'hoon' ran a red light, the passengers of the car that was hit head on after 'hoon' lost control of their car on a bend, passengers that didnt want to be in the car with 'hoon' before they hit a tree.
I'm not sure the figures are recorded in a fashion that would allow this though.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by MAD

I'd like to see some stats on how many innocent people are killed each year by 'hooning' accidents. By innocent I mean the passengers of the car that was t-boned after 'hoon' ran a red light, the passengers of the car that was hit head on after 'hoon' lost control of their car on a bend, passengers that didnt want to be in the car with 'hoon' before they hit a tree.
I'm not sure the figures are recorded in a fashion that would allow this though.

You seem to believe or at least your argument seems to be that building skid pans will reduce 'hooning' accidents. I don't see how a skid pan will stop a bonehead from being a bonehead on the road..?

I once participated in a karting day with pretty decent karts through a teamwork building day with colleagues. Most of these guys weren't car enthusiasts but had a lot of fun doing it. One thing I did notice was just about every single one of them that participated, at the end of the day leaving the complex and entering traffic did so in huge plumes of smoke.

Injecting rooms do serve a community purpose. I honestly don't see how a skid pan would benefit the community at all.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Rodp

You seem to believe or at least your argument seems to be that building skid pans will reduce 'hooning' accidents. I don't see how a skid pan will stop a bonehead from being a bonehead on the road..?

I once participated in a karting day with pretty decent karts through a teamwork building day with colleagues. Most of these guys weren't car enthusiasts but had a lot of fun doing it. One thing I did notice was just about every single one of them that participated, at the end of the day leaving the complex and entering traffic did so in huge plumes of smoke.

Injecting rooms do serve a community purpose. I honestly don't see how a skid pan would benefit the community at all.

I have absolutely no idea what would and wouldnt work, but it might be nice to try something positive instead. I just wanted to open the floor for a discussion about why only one of the two problems faced by our society, addressed on this thread, is given a positive solution, and the other a very negative.

Perhaps if gokarts were free and you went enough times the number of black lines after a session might reduce. Only speculation, who knows.

My question regarding the stats is to gain an idea of the numbers involved to see if there could be an argument as to why one or the other may or may not, or should or should not, receive more attention.

[FCleader]

Originally Posted by MAD

What cities in what countries? How many of those with HIV were not users?
This sounds awfully like a 'case study' and they are never biased towards a particular outcome. (End sarcasm)

No, our roads are not made for racing, or misbehaving, nor are our parks are made for junkies to shoot up in. Yet only one gets a solution.
The other has to pay for themselves if they are lucky enough to have a facility near them.

Skidpans, drift tracks, drag strips are just ideas, subsidised gokarts could be another.

I'd like to see some stats on how many innocent people are killed each year by 'hooning' accidents. By innocent I mean the passengers of the car that was t-boned after 'hoon' ran a red light, the passengers of the car that was hit head on after 'hoon' lost control of their car on a bend, passengers that didnt want to be in the car with 'hoon' before they hit a tree.
I'm not sure the figures are recorded in a fashion that would allow this though.

The city with the program was Liverpool, England. Specifically a housing estate with 22,000 families living in it, and in order to get the drugs/needles exchanged you have to have regular counselling, they don't just handout drugs to users.
The city without the program is New York City, and I was saying there are approx. 200,000 drug injectors half of which have HIV, so of the 200,000 drug injectors, 100,000 have HIV. Im not including people who contracted HIV through other means. (The lecturer hasn't referrenced this info, so take it with a grain of salt if you so wish).

If you're after statistics go the Australian Bureau of Statistics and do some research.
As for how many people are killed by hoons I dont think the data is that specific, but in 2009 1417 people died from land transport accident, http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....A?opendocument, however in 2001 1,038 people died from drug induced deaths. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@..../3321.0.55.001 (I know this is old but its the latest data I could find).
So I would say more people die from drugs than hooning as those statistics include all deaths caused by vehicles and is not specific to hooning.

And like I said before hoons can make a conscience decision not to hoon and go the drags, drug users aren't in a proper state of mind and are addicted therefore need help.
'Hoons' have to pay because drag racing and circuit racing and so on are hobbies and the government shouldn't have to fund your hobby.

Im not saying hooning is any less of a problem, but subsidising activities for hoons is ridiculous, how do you prove you're a hoon, you can't. So you could just rock up to go karts and say "Hey, I'm a hoon I want the government discount thanks" and have a fun day with your mates/kids/family whatever, which is then rewarding people for stupid behaviour.

Giving government money tohelp people who are a detriment to society ie, drug users, isn't the best use for it, however, rewarding people for making a conscience decision to endanger someones life is worse.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by FCleader

The city with the program was Liverpool, England. Specifically a housing estate with 22,000 families living in it, and in order to get the drugs/needles exchanged you have to have regular counselling, they don't just handout drugs to users.
The city without the program is New York City, and I was saying there are approx. 200,000 drug injectors half of which have HIV, so of the 200,000 drug injectors, 100,000 have HIV. Im not including people who contracted HIV through other means. (The lecturer hasn't referrenced this info, so take it with a grain of salt if you so wish).

There could be so many more things that influence those figures. What's the per-capita average of HIV infections in both locations? Per-capita average of homeless people in each location?
Case studies always remove all of the clutter and simplify as much as possible because it is easier to use as an example.

Originally Posted by FCleader

If you're after statistics go the Australian Bureau of Statistics and do some research.
As for how many people are killed by hoons I dont think the data is that specific, but in 2009 1417 people died from land transport accident, http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....A?opendocument, however in 2001 1,038 people died from drug induced deaths. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@..../3321.0.55.001 (I know this is old but its the latest data I could find).
So I would say more people die from drugs than hooning as those statistics include all deaths caused by vehicles and is not specific to hooning.

I probably could find the figures I'm after but I honestly cant be bothered mining for the information that is essentially only going to be used for this discussion and will have no real meaning or change the outcome at all. This is of course only a discussion, a forum of ideas and opinions.

So let me run with some hypothetical figures...
Lets say 5% of all road deaths are hooning related, and 80% of them are innocent people (ie. not the driver, the decision maker). That gives us about 57 people killed by the actions of a hoon.
Are those 57 not worth enough for something to be done to help curb the incidence of hooning related deaths, rather than something that looks good as a headline?
How many people killed by the decisions of a person-that-would-use-an-injecting-room have been saved by introducing injecting rooms?
What are the priorities?

The media have portrayed the 'hoon' image so much so that anyone that might even squeak a tyre from the traffic lights will be frowned upon by the sheep of society.
Should they just let it go and let the world decide the fate rather than try to force their hand in a situation that is ultimately uncontrollable?

Originally Posted by FCleader

And like I said before hoons can make a conscience decision not to hoon and go the drags, drug users aren't in a proper state of mind and are addicted therefore need help.
'Hoons' have to pay because drag racing and circuit racing and so on are hobbies and the government shouldn't have to fund your hobby.

If you want to argue state of mind, then what effect does testosterone have on the decision making centres of the brain? If upbringing can be blamed for drug usage, can peer pressure ever be blamed for hooning?

So a drug user should get a hand out simply cause they're addicted? Didnt they ever make a choice regarding the usage of drugs, they just woke up one day addicted?

Originally Posted by FCleader

]Im not saying hooning is any less of a problem, but subsidising activities for hoons is ridiculous, how do you prove you're a hoon, you can't. So you could just rock up to go karts and say "Hey, I'm a hoon I want the government discount thanks" and have a fun day with your mates/kids/family whatever, which is then rewarding people for stupid behaviour.

Giving government money tohelp people who are a detriment to society ie, drug users, isn't the best use for it, however, rewarding people for making a conscience decision to endanger someones life is worse.

It's got nothing to do with rewarding people for their actions, It's about trying to find something that might actualy help reduce the incidence of it occuring.
Although positive reinforcement for good driving behaviour would be fantastic, but how do you photograph that?