buses taking right of way too far

[krt10]

well on the way home from work today i almost saw a major crash.

i was on the freeway following a semi. both me and the semi were doing 100kph and approaching a on ramp. coming down the ramp at about 60kph ( guess) was a bus full of passengers. i could see that the bus would have to slow down as not to cut off the semi and possible cause a crash. well thats what i thought would happen. but no, the bus just kept going at 60 right out in front of the truck.

the truck driver was hard on the brakes and soon enough my car was full of tire smoke and i had bits or rubber hitting the windscreen. the truck and i both had to swerve into the fast lane as the bus just kept on going as if we wernt even there.
id hate to think how many people would have been injured if the truck driver hadnt been paying good attention.

i see this way too often. there are constantly busses pulling out of bus stops with out indicating and almost collect motorists.

:

[BeStRaFe]

i sadly had this happen to a car i want renting :(
the bus pulled right out beside be when i was sitting in traffic.

massive dint and an un-apologetic bus driver later i was one ticked off person

[turboxr]

Yep I agree. I almost rear ended a bus I was about to pass at about 60 klick. He was still indicating to the right when he floored it pulled out from the curb. Thank god for ABS.

[T3ts50]

I agree also. Ive had a bus try and change lanes with me right beside it. I understand the give way to the bus rule, but putting your indicator on and turning with a seconds notice is not call. I ended up slamming the brakes so I wouldnt get hit.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by krt10

well on the way home from work today i almost saw a major crash.

i was on the freeway following a semi. both me and the semi were doing 100kph and approaching a on ramp. coming down the ramp at about 60kph ( guess) was a bus full of passengers. i could see that the bus would have to slow down as not to cut off the semi and possible cause a crash. well thats what i thought would happen. but no, the bus just kept going at 60 right out in front of the truck.

the truck driver was hard on the brakes and soon enough my car was full of tire smoke and i had bits or rubber hitting the windscreen. the truck and i both had to swerve into the fast lane as the bus just kept on going as if we wernt even there.
id hate to think how many people would have been injured if the truck driver hadnt been paying good attention.

i see this way too often. there are constantly busses pulling out of bus stops with out indicating and almost collect motorists.

:

This is a freeway?

Hate to tell ya, but the bus had right of way if he was able to pull in front of the truck (obviously the truck had not passed the point where the bus needed to fall in behind the truck). You know those signs, MERGING TRAFFIC? Yeah, they mean to allow the bus to slot in to the flow of traffic, it would be better if the bus was at the speed limit, but that isnt always possible. Being able to travel at a constant 100 is not a freeway right, there are times like the above where you slow down to let traffic merge.

The truck either moves to the right lane, or if he cant, slows down. The bus shouldnt be expected to come to a stop at the end of the on ramp if noone lets him merge, and enter the highway in 1st gear. Given you both ended in the right lane, obviously the truck driver failed to actually pay attention and drive with due care and attention, he should have indicated and moved there long before the bus pulled out.


But yeah, many do think that sign on the back gives them the right to pull out without consideration for traffic.

[Unco]

Originally Posted by fmc351

This is a freeway?

Hate to tell ya, but the bus had right of way if he was able to pull in front of the truck (obviously the truck had not passed the point where the bus needed to fall in behind the truck). You know those signs, MERGING TRAFFIC? Yeah, they mean to allow the bus to slot in to the flow of traffic, it would be better if the bus was at the speed limit, but that isnt always possible. Being able to travel at a constant 100 is not a freeway right, there are times like the above where you slow down to let traffic merge.

The truck either moves to the right lane, or if he cant, slows down. The bus shouldnt be expected to come to a stop at the end of the on ramp if noone lets him merge, and enter the highway in 1st gear. Given you both ended in the right lane, obviously the truck driver failed to actually pay attention and drive with due care and attention, he should have indicated and moved there long before the bus pulled out.


But yeah, many do think that sign on the back gives them the right to pull out without consideration for traffic.

there was something like this a few months ago in here. from memory: member sped up to be able to merge in front of traffic on a freeway. in doing so, he exceeded the speed limit and got busted for it.

when he argued his point in court, the judge told him that he expected the member to come to a complete stop if need be to allow traffic on the freeway to flow first before he could merge.

personally, i think it would be nice to see some common courtesy displayed from time to time on our roads. from the description of events, the next lane to the right was clear, otherwise the truck and OP would not have been able to move to the next lane when the bus merged onto the freeway, so why didn't they clear the left lane for the bus in the beginning? because why the hell should they, right?

ultimately, had a collision occurred, the bus would have been at fault and that's the law, but a bit of common sense and foresight could have seen everyone flowing through without tyre smoke or tempers flared.

[pertuan]

Originally Posted by Unco

when he argued his point in court, the judge told him that he expected the member to come to a complete stop if need be to allow traffic on the freeway to flow first before he could merge.

Thats possibly one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard. Yes, lets just stop at the end of the ramp then enter a freeway in 1st gear while everyone comes at you at 100kph and backing up the entire on-ramp.

Smart judge that one...

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Unco

there was something like this a few months ago in here. from memory: member sped up to be able to merge in front of traffic on a freeway. in doing so, he exceeded the speed limit and got busted for it.

when he argued his point in court, the judge told him that he expected the member to come to a complete stop if need be to allow traffic on the freeway to flow first before he could merge.

personally, i think it would be nice to see some common courtesy displayed from time to time on our roads. from the description of events, the next lane to the right was clear, otherwise the truck and OP would not have been able to move to the next lane when the bus merged onto the freeway, so why didn't they clear the left lane for the bus in the beginning? because why the hell should they, right?

ultimately, had a collision occurred, the bus would have been at fault and that's the law, but a bit of common sense and foresight could have seen everyone flowing through without tyre smoke or tempers flared.

Id like to see a transcript of that judgment.

The rules on lane changes are if youre in the lane they are changing too, and you can see the rear indicator of the car changing lanes, you need to slow down and let them change lane, I dont see how merging onto a freeway would be any different. If the car indicates as you approach its rear door, they still need to indicate for 30 metres or so before that, so in that case you keep going past them. But if you are behind them albeit in a different lane, they indicate while you are still behind them, youre a fool if you try to shoot past them. Obviously if youre doing 80 in an 80 zone, and they are doing 20, there are complications.

However, in the case of the freeway, the intention of the bus is well known long before that question arises. You do have to merge, it is much less safe to enter a freeway from a standstill (esp in a bus), that why there is an onramp and not an intersection.


I often hear of Judges doing this and that, but it never turns out to be true. Ive studied law and read the cases often alleged to have said something or other, they are usually wives tales, or half truths.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Id like to see a transcript of that judgment.

The rules on lane changes are if youre in the lane they are changing too, and you can see the rear indicator of the car changing lanes, you need to slow down and let them change lane, I dont see how merging onto a freeway would be any different.

Ive studied law

Not enough it would seem. For a start you refer to lane changing - this thread is about merging - two very different things in the eyes of the law. In any event what you have stated about lane changing is inaccurate - any driver's vision of another car's indicator is NOT a requirement of ANY thing at all. The law regards merging in all states of Australia are as I stated above.

Oh, hang on ... has Queensland finally succeeded from the Commonwealth? Maybe your laws are different in that case.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by T3man

Not enough it would seem. For a start you refer to lane changing - this thread is about merging - two very different things in the eyes of the law. In any event what you have stated about lane changing is inaccurate - any driver's vision of another car's indicator is NOT a requirement of ANY thing at all. The law regards merging in all states of Australia are as I stated above.

Oh, hang on ... has Queensland finally succeeded from the Commonwealth? Maybe your laws are different in that case.

So what youre saying is, Im supposed to realise the old school XR Im door to door with, but his bumper is ahead of mine, Im supposed to know he is changing lanes and allow him to merge? Yeah, I have to be able to see his indicator, you know, to indicate his intention. Door door, there is no side repeater so I ave no idea he wants to change lanes. What you suggest is I have to assume every car without side repeaters wants to change lanes. Door to door, he indicates, I dont have to pull back and let him in, he folds in behind me. If I see his indicator (then clearly my windscreen is behind the back of his car), I ease off and continue behind him once he changes lane.

Lane changing was raised as its the closest situation to reason by similarity. However, merging is a more dangerous situation, more so if the entering vehicle has to stop. There is a ramp, not an intersection, I wonder why that is? I dont know its law, buts it what I was taught when I obtained my licence. You dont study law by examining every last law, you do so by analogy and general principles.

The reference to law, was in context of a misrepresented judgment and the frequency of that, and the media perpetuation of the all too common misrepresentations. It was not in reference to the topic itself, that would be the context you conveniently removed in your quote. Given your comprehension, Ill refrain from following your interpretation. I stop if need be for safety reasons, not because I think I have too.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by fmc351

This is a freeway?

Hate to tell ya, but the bus had right of way if he was able to pull in front of the truck (obviously the truck had not passed the point where the bus needed to fall in behind the truck). You know those signs, MERGING TRAFFIC? Yeah, they mean to allow the bus to slot in to the flow of traffic, it would be better if the bus was at the speed limit, but that isnt always possible. Being able to travel at a constant 100 is not a freeway right, there are times like the above where you slow down to let traffic merge.

The truck either moves to the right lane, or if he cant, slows down. The bus shouldnt be expected to come to a stop at the end of the on ramp if noone lets him merge, and enter the highway in 1st gear. Given you both ended in the right lane, obviously the truck driver failed to actually pay attention and drive with due care and attention, he should have indicated and moved there long before the bus pulled out.


But yeah, many do think that sign on the back gives them the right to pull out without consideration for traffic.

Not quite true - sorry.

the bus would have been facing a dotted line as it entered, this is pretty much a Give Way line and so should be giving way if they can't enter safely.

Mind you I believe the truck driver (and I am /was one) should pay lots of attention to all on ramps, as that is what is going to impact on you as a driver more than anything.

The truck should have seen it earlier, then done either of two things, moved right if possible, if not possible then put his foot on the brake earlier.

I am not saying the bus driver is right, just read my first comment, but two wrongs don't make a right.



And BTW, if the sign is the same as the ones in Victoria, it is a legal sign, however it only applies to buses pulling out from kerbs after a pick up. Not all buses have them.

And you are required by law to give way to the bus pulling out from the kerb if it has a sign and has its right indicator on. You can be booked for not giving way to them

[ST]

I had some random guy, must've been at least 70 do this in his car. I was driving and he put his indicator on and starting changing into my lane when he was RIGHT next to me, I was dead even with him. There was someone right behind me so I had to put my foot down to avoid him hitting me. He went back in the other lane just before he went into the other car.

Then what happens? There is a red light so he is in the other lane, one car back and he sees the red P on my rear window and decides he'll try and make me look like the one at fault by yelling. Lucky enough the car behind me was already having a go at the idiot, saving me the trouble. :P

Still made my blood boil though.

[Allen]

I cannot pass a bus on the side of the road without fearing that it is about to pull out in front of me... I have on many occasions been cut off or had to take evasive action to miss one of these idiots.

Before I had my licence and I was at the mercy of the public transport system, I witnessed many near misses and a few minor accidents from buses just pulling out with no warning and not looking...

[RogueDriver]

Want to hear it from the other side of the coin? I'm a bus driver (in Adelaide) and I can tell you that I trust most of my colleagues and the drivers of other heavy vehicles way more than I trust car drivers (yep, even those in Fords!).

The law is (at least in SA) that after a bus has been indicating away from the gutter for 5 seconds you are required to give way. Carrying on past the bus as though you can't see the bright, orange lights flashing on the back and sides of it means that you are failing to give way.
Obviously some guys take it to the extremes and pull out without waiting the required 5 seconds but it's the typical story of bad apples.
I, personally, and most of my colleagues will indicate and then look for a decent gap to pull into. When I pull away from a bus stop I do so only if there is a gap that allows you to move into the right lane safely or if I know I can get up to speed before you need to hit the brakes. You may think that I've "cut you off" because you had to slow down but if you thought about it calmly instead of going into a panic like most people do, you'd see the right lane beside you is clear or I'm miles in front of you.
There are times where I'll push my way into traffic when I've been sitting on the side of the road for way more than 5 seconds and the right lane is clear but the line of traffic continues past me in the left lane (this is usually accompanied by hand gestures - it's insanely frustrating to watch every single car fail to give way as though it's fine).
It's simple: move into the right lane or slow down and flash your headlights if it's safe to do so. An intelligent driver will allow the bus out and then overtake him. Done properly you can get away with 5 seconds of inconvenience.

But while everyone is feeling self-righteous, let me pose a question:
Why do so many car drivers change lanes in front of a bus without leaving a gap? It almost never happens to me in my car but when I'm in the bus it'll happen every couple of minutes - sometimes with more than 1 car at a time. Obviously spending 10+ hours on the road per day gives me time to see a lot more than just being cut off but it's my biggest pet peeve. People do understand that a bus requires more room to stop than a car, right?

I don't mean to come across as a pr1ck but the bottom line is this: the driving standards in Adelaide (in all types of vehicles) is pathetic. I'm sick of watching near misses and road rage incidents that could be avoided by stricter licence testing/training and some courtesy and common sense.

Mind you, this may all be a non-point soon. Most of us are leaving the industry and the drivers being hired to replace us are... how to say this diplomatically... not native to Australia? Most of them can barely speak English and they have no idea how to drive. Things are about to get worse ;)

[Gaz]

Originally Posted by RogueDriver

The law is (at least in SA) that after a bus has been indicating away from the gutter for 5 seconds you are required to give way. Carrying on past the bus as though you can't see the bright, orange lights flashing on the back and sides of it means that you are failing to give way.
Obviously some guys take it to the extremes and pull out without waiting the required 5 seconds but it's the typical story of bad apples.
I, personally, and most of my colleagues will indicate and then look for a decent gap to pull into. When I pull away from a bus stop I do so only if there is a gap that allows you to move into the right lane safely or if I know I can get up to speed before you need to hit the brakes.

While i agree the bus has right of way, it can all depend on the situation. If its busy traffic and a 70 zone and the bus has its own slip lane for its stop, for the bus to indicate and think they can just pull out into 70km/h traffic cause they have right of way is stupid.

In peak hour road rage follows if someone jams on the brakes at 70 to let a bus in - if the traffic is slowing or there is a gap where a car has to slow, but not jam the brakes on or stop then i got no problem.

[T3man]

The bus did not have right of way. Merging traffic at an on-ramp must give way if they have to cross a "short-and-wide" broken merge line. The sign at the back of the bus has no relevance in this situation - it is just another vehicle.

If two lanes (with normal lane divide broken lines) are merging, then the vehicle which is furthest along the road has right of way regardless of which lane it is in or at what speed the vehicles are travelling. This may be stupid at times but it IS the law. Plain and simple.

The "give way" sign on the back of buses only applies in areas with lower than 80km/h speed limits and then only when the bus is pulling out into traffice from a bus-stop.

PS RogueDriver> You just beat my post as I was typing ... like you, I too drive buses for a living and I agree with everything you have posted.

[poolkeeper]

Anyone driven a bus? I havent...

[T3man]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Anyone driven a bus? I havent...

Yep, ... today I drove five different buses. They all have huge blind spots, are slow to accelerate into traffic and need a lot of space on the road to manouvre. Some also have very agricultural steering and braking systems. But the biggest problem is that other road users DO NOT recognize any of these facts and it can be very frustrating for heavy vehicle drivers to have to deal with inept drivers surrounding them all day long. It is too much for some and they at times use their "might" to force their way through/around traffic. I'm not condoning this but I can certainly understand where the "bad @rse attitude of many heavy vehicle drivers stems from.

[Feathers]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Anyone driven a bus? I havent...

Yep.

Here's the NSW RTA Heavy Vehicle Handbook.
Page 52 has the current wording for buses pulling out from kerbs.

I used to have the book here, but I can't find it at the moment.

What RogueDriver said is correct about buses having right of way in built up areas 70kph or under.



The other thing to remember is that a lot of these buses never usually see the expressways, and there is no way in hell they could get to 100.

I drive a 1984 Volvo B6FA, and even though it's a turbo, is speed limited by gearing to 80.

It's not just frustrating for you behind stuck behind me...I want to get that load of screaming annoying kids off my bus as soon as possible!



What really peeves me are the people who don't understand what the red and yellow reflective stickers on the back of the bus (or any vehicle over 7.5m) mean.
Sometimes we need more room, or 2 lanes, to turn left due to narrow raods, traffic, trees, or posts/islands in the way.

Late last year I was sitting fairly close to the centre of a narrow suburban street with a load of school kids waiting to turn left, and some moron in an Echo who saw my left hand blinker on, and the "Do not overtake turning vehicle" sign, thought he'd sneak up the left and undercut me.
Then had the audacity to honk at me because I was in his way!

[TadKa]

I remember the driving quiz with King Eddie years ago. You had to give way to busses pulling out from bus stops but not in any other scenario. Unless of course its a zip merge.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by TadKa

I remember the driving quiz with King Eddie years ago. You had to give way to busses pulling out from bus stops but not in any other scenario. Unless of course its a zip merge.

"you took the words right out of my mouth"

[deesun]

The bus is merging over what is esentially a give way line and it is the bus which must give way to the traffic comming along the freeway. T3MAN is correct regarding the short and wide broken line, it is basicaly a give way line. The same goes for the same line at the end of a slow lane. Slow lane gives way as it is them who are merging into the other lane as the slow/left lane ends. As for changing lanes if you are moving into (changing into) another lane you must make sure it is safe to do so. This doesn't mean the traffic in the lane you are moving into has to give way at all no matter where your car is situated in respect to the other car. Of course there is or should be some courtesy given to cars either merging or changing lanes but they are the rules. Moreso recently i have noticed in NSW on free/motor/tollways if there is room the traffic in the lane nearest the onramp will move into the next lane to facilitate merging from the onramp and then move back when safe to do so. This is of course a courtesy and mostly helps tremendously in the flow of traffic.

[Mechan1k]

OK ... here's what the Australian Road Rules State:

149 Giving way when lines of traffic merge into a single line of traffic
A driver in a line of traffic that is merging with one or more
lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver
must give way to a vehicle in another line of traffic if any part
of the vehicle is ahead of the driver’s vehicle.




So ... in this scenario ... the bus has the right of way.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

OK ... here's what the Australian Road Rules State:

149 Giving way when lines of traffic merge into a single line of traffic
A driver in a line of traffic that is merging with one or more
lines of traffic travelling in the same direction as the driver
must give way to a vehicle in another line of traffic if any part
of the vehicle is ahead of the driver’s vehicle.




So ... in this scenario ... the bus has the right of way.

That's 2 lanes merging into one, so in that case the bus would have right of way.

The scenario initially described is the merging on to a road/freeway from an on-ramp, and this usually involves the broke white line mentioned by T3man. Different rules apply. The bus does not have right of way in that situation.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by JC

That's 2 lanes merging into one, so in that case the bus would have right of way.

The scenario initially described is the merging on to a road/freeway from an on-ramp, and this usually involves the broke white line mentioned by T3man. Different rules apply. The bus does not have right of way in that situation.

Ahhh ... I did find the other rule for this ... and you are right.
Weird thing is it wan't put the current Australian Road Rules ... but is in General Rules in the Road Users hand book.

Although there is another clause for Entering a Motorway:

"The approach to a Motorway is usually from a road on the left. Watch for a gap then increase your speed to safely merge with the traffic. Do not stop except in an emergency."

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

"The approach to a Motorway is usually from a road on the left. Watch for a gap then increase your speed to safely merge with the traffic. Do not stop except in an emergency."

That is in the handbook for guidance, it is not law.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

That is in the handbook for guidance, it is not law.

The handbooks offer tutorials based on enacted road traffic law, including that which you quote, but are not 'absolute' translations of it, nor are all troad traffic laws imparted in totality.

Most handbook tutorials are focussing on the defensive driver components (owing incresingly harmonised graduated licensing systems and ARR) and increasingly offer practical safety advice.

A much better situation that that applying say 25 years back.

I'd expect NEW editions out mid to late 2008 once the new ARR amendments are gazetted by each parliament.

[Laminge]

I broke down in front of an angry bus driver once who continued to pull out into traffic without using his indicator...

I had to reverse the car up to his bumper as well to make sure he knew I was broken down.

Im sure he used his indicator after he helped me look under the bonnet, the radiator cap must have been hot as he was shouting allot but he seem to calm down when I reached for the car jack...

[superpursuit83]

Originally Posted by Laminge

I broke down in front of an angry bus driver once who continued to pull out into traffic without using his indicator...

I had to reverse the car up to his bumper as well to make sure he knew I was broken down.

Im sure he used his indicator after he helped me look under the bonnet, the radiator cap must have been hot as he was shouting allot but he seem to calm down when I reached for the car jack...

Love ya style man, and beleive it too...lol

All this debate over who's right, just treat everyone on the road like they are an idiot and keep out of trouble. Buses scare the hell out of me too, but its not all bus drivers, only a few arrogant ones and the ones in a bad mood because of all the crappy car drivers. Buses, trucks, Cranes! all the same, most drivers have no respect for them.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by superpursuit83

All this debate over who's right just treat everyone on the road like they are an idiot and keep out of trouble.

Spot on!