FWD in Large cars?

Crazy Dazz · 27-10-2010, 08:56 PM

Read some really strange comments lately, regarding the benefits of FWD over RWD.
Can someone knowledgeable explain what these benefits are, without resorting to clichés, urban myths, or gobbledegook, and without foaming at the mouth and insulting all RWD drivers.

I accept that in many ordinary circumstances a well-designed FWD is just as effective as RWD, especially with traction control, power steering etc, but I am still left asking why?
Yes, many European makers who have been doing FWD for 50 years are still streets ahead of Falcons in terms of handling, but I don’t see that as being due to FWD.

My XR4 is FWD, I love it to bits, and it works well, but turn off the DSC and it will spin it’s wheels of the line and be completely uncontrollable.

In a compact 4cyl, FWD saves weight and space, as it makes for a very compact package up front, and obviously there’s no tunnel or humps. Compare something like a Yaris to a 1970’s Corolla, and you can see just how far FWD packaging has come.
But as far as I can see, that is it’s only advantage? There are still many inherent obstacles to overcome, and I just don’t see the need for it in big cars.
Jump into a Camry/Aurion and you’ve still got a massive centre consul, so I’m not sure how much space you really gain in the front.
The majority of cars are already unbalanced to the front, and FWD simply exacerbates that, especially when the engine is pushed out in front of the front wheels. Contrary to what some believe, when you accelerate hard, most of the mass of the car is born by the back wheels. Which is why every race car, drag car, speedway car, etc is RWD. (Again, I accept that this is probably irrelevant for 90% of applications, I’m just making a point.)

I imagine that some weight is saved, even in a large car, by eliminating the tailshaft, and combining the gearbox and diff. Perhaps it also enables them to share components and development with their smaller stablemates?
Is it perhaps easier to assemble FWD?

Is it perhaps telling that the Americans (whose idea of a sports car is a Lounge Room powered by a 500ci V8) happily accept FWD for their large cars, but in Europe most of the large saloons are still RWD?

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 09:09 PM

I was always anti FWD till i bought one. IMO i think a FWD in the handling stakes (Standard) is alot better then a RWD car.
Also it seems RWD is used in most application where the power is higher ie falcon/commodore (although my XR5 almost has as much go, and some do.) i couldnt imagine a FWD V8 there wouldnt be much room not to mention driveshaft longevity, HSV Coupe4 anyone front drive system in that required smaller headers reducing power.
They both have there positives and negatives i guess.

But can we not turn this into a FWD bashing thread please

04redxr8 · 27-10-2010, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

i couldnt imagine a FWD V8 there wouldnt be much room not to mention driveshaft longevity,

Cadillac Eldorado. 500 c.i. V8 -Fwd .

Personally, I do not like the concept of fwd. Torque steer is one reason, and the other is I like conventional things. Thats just me.

But fwd does have benefits.

Road_Warrior · 27-10-2010, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

Cadillac Eldorado. 500 c.i. V8 -Fwd .

Personally, I do not like the concept of fwd. Torque steer is one reason, and the other is I like conventional things. Thats just me.

But fwd does have benefits.

I don't like it either. I like having the control wheels and the drive wheels at opposing ends of the car.

Ben73 · 27-10-2010, 09:15 PM

RWD cars are still so popular because they are like racing cars and bring joy of driving... well that's what the manufactures like to say in their ads.

In everyday driving FWD is probably definably the best all rounder, you never even notice the difference between a RWD and a FWD and a AWD in normal driving conditions.
When I first got my licence I only drove FWD cars. One day I got in a RWD ute in the wet, and I drove it like I drove my FWD sedan... I ended up sideways turning right at the lights.
It's a lot harder to get sideways in a FWD and that's a good thing for the average driver who probably doesn't know how to correct oversteer.
AWD is also hard to get sideways in, but they generally use more fuel then a FWD, so FWD is probably the best for your average driver.

JimNiki · 27-10-2010, 09:19 PM

Isn't cost saving/fuel effieciency via weight saving 99% of the justification for FWD?

vztrt · 27-10-2010, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimNiki

Isn't cost saving/fuel effieciency via weight saving 99% of the justification for FWD?

You'll also get more cabin room with FWD. For smaller cars it makes sense.

Marquis 351 · 27-10-2010, 09:20 PM

I think could be a balance thing maybe? BMW have advertised in the past (in europe) That may have some truth to it. As BMW have sold a few cars to be fair. I Personaly would rather a RWD. Rather be pushed than pulled!

dylancox · 27-10-2010, 09:23 PM

Is FWD less likely to get bogged? Had the unfortunate experience once of doing a 3-point turn on a narrow dirt road and didnt notice that the sides of the road were thick mud covered with fresh grass. Needless to say, while reversing, somehow reversed a bit too quick (useless BA reverse gear that takes 3 seconds to engage and then thuds into reverse). Got back into forward gear and all I have is both rear wheels free spinning and creating a 6 metre mud shower. Tried putting wood under the rear wheels and just steam and burning rubber. Gave up and had to be pulled out by a mate's hilux.

Yellow_Festiva · 27-10-2010, 09:31 PM

My thoughts on the reasons.

Costs less to make.
Weighs less when finished.
Less distance to transfer power means less loss of power.
Easier to keep driveline smooth due to less distance for power transfer.
Suits 98% of driving public.

tranquilized · 27-10-2010, 11:26 PM

FWD's benefits in small cars a well known and obvious, but I think fuel consumption is the main driving force behind the spread of FWD to larger cars.

In terms of FWD in large cars being unnecessary, I think the point is adopting FWD allows the large car to shrink while retaining interior space thereby reducing fuel consumption.

My memory is a bit sketchy here, but I'm pretty sure GM and/or Ford stated the case for GRWD, and RWD cars in general, diminished due to the US government tightening the CAFE standards again.

Anyway, the benefits of FWD are definitely there, but they're all practical and economic - nothing to do with driving pleasure or performance. (not knocking the many great and fun FWD cars out there)

dannyhilton · 27-10-2010, 09:56 PM

Every drive pattern has its advantages. Packaging, efficiency, manufacturing costs, reduced weight are why FWD works among others. It's also much better on ice/snow. FWD is also (IMHO) more predictable for the average driver, having turned a ute sideways on gravel with a simple push of the throttle, I'll be the first to say RWD can take some mastering. The fact that the majority of the car driving public isn't an enthusiast proves FWD is here to stay.

Glad you like your XR4. The Fiesta, and more so the XR4, has gone a long way to prove FWD can be fun!

glavas · 28-10-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

Every drive pattern has its advantages. Packaging, efficiency, manufacturing costs, reduced weight are why FWD works among others. It's also much better on ice/snow. FWD is also (IMHO) more predictable for the average driver, having turned a ute sideways on gravel with a simple push of the throttle, I'll be the first to say RWD can take some mastering. The fact that the majority of the car driving public isn't an enthusiast proves FWD is here to stay.

Glad you like your XR4. The Fiesta, and more so the XR4, has gone a long way to prove FWD can be fun!

how can a na fwd 4 cylinder be fun? i cant find one posative about it.

slow
small
ugly
bad seats
bad in interior
no leg room
carnt tow
small boot.

weres the fun?

Chopped · 28-10-2010, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

......weres the fun?

Where is the fat !

Most modern large sedans are FAT (like western people!!).

Less Weight / More Fun

Bucknaked · 28-10-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

how can a na fwd 4 cylinder be fun? i cant find one posative about it.

slow
small
ugly
bad seats
bad in interior
no leg room
carnt tow
small boot.

weres the fun?

Mondeo is a 4cyl. It tows, boot the same size as a falcon, plenty of leg room. I think you need to go away and do your research. But then, wheres the fun?

**DJM83** · 28-10-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Mondeo is a 4cyl. It tows, boot the same size as a falcon, plenty of leg room. I think you need to go away and do your research. But then, wheres the fun?

And more features

XRSEX · 28-10-2010, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

how can a na fwd 4 cylinder be fun? i cant find one posative about it.

slow
small
ugly
bad seats
bad in interior
no leg room
carnt tow
small boot.

weres the fun?

My AE92 corolla was pretty fun. Weighed bugger all, was manual, comfy as, lots of leg room, who need a boot when you have a big stereo in it :P

dannyhilton · 28-10-2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

how can a na fwd 4 cylinder be fun? i cant find one posative about it.

slow
small
ugly
bad seats
bad in interior
no leg room
carnt tow
small boot.

weres the fun?

I'm not even going to grace that comment with an educated answer. By the sounds you have no knoledge of small cars so me offering an educated point of view would be useless

Happy spamming!

glavas · 28-10-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

I'm not even going to grace that comment with an educated answer. By the sounds you have no knoledge of small cars so me offering an educated point of view would be useless

Happy spamming!

i driven evos and wrx's i can see were the "fun is" so i know about small cars but again how can a 4 cylinder na fwd be fun???? i just cant understand it.

slow=no fun
lack of power and torque= no fun
unsupportive seats=no fun

WERE IS THIS FUN?????????????????????

im not having a go im just expressing my thoughts on this fourm im just curious to this so called fun.

vztrt · 28-10-2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

i driven evos and wrx's i can see were the "fun is" so i know about small cars but again how can a 4 cylinder na fwd be fun???? i just cant understand it.

Honda, alfa, mini seem to be able to do it quite well. So maybe think about it.

dannyhilton · 28-10-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

again how can a 4 cylinder na fwd be fun???? i just cant understand it.

slow=no fun
lack of power and torque= no fun
unsupportive seats=no fun

WERE IS THIS FUN?????????????????????

Winner in its class for the 2006 and 2007 Motor Magazine Bang For Your Buck Award. And third overall in 2007. Pretty much everyone found the fun in this car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

im just expressing my thoughts

Might want to do some research into FWD cars and then touch up on your grammar.

mondo_broady · 28-10-2010, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

how can a na fwd 4 cylinder be fun? i cant find one posative about it.

slow
small
ugly
bad seats
bad in interior
no leg room
carnt tow
small boot.

weres the fun?

you've obviously never driven an XR4 then mate. i'd back my unmodified XR4 against an XR8 up a mountain pass any day of the week.

if you're idea of fun is laying rubber and driving fast in a straight line, then go for your big heavy powerful RWD monsters. i'll stick to climbing and descending winding hills because that is where the real fun is...

oh, XR4 fits 5 adults, has leather interior with soft touch plastics and looks grouse...

XR6Runner · 28-10-2010, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

you've obviously never driven an XR4 then mate. i'd back my unmodified XR4 against an XR8 up a mountain pass any day of the week.

Mate, how much weight difference is there between XR4 and XR8? How about compare XR4 to Mazda MX5. I know who I would go for through this 'mountain pass'.

But that's illegal anyway. If I was to bet between XR4 and XR8 (both stock) on a proper race track, I would go the XR8 any day and all day. You are just kidding your self mate... Have you ever been in an XR8? I would guess you haven't.

Edit: Spelling

mondo_broady · 29-10-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6Runner

Mate, how much weight difference is there between XR4 and XR8? How about compare XR4 to Mazda MX5. I know who I would go for through this 'mountain pass'.

But that's illegal anyway. If I was to bet between XR4 and XR8 (both stock) on a proper race track, I would go the XR8 any day and all day. You are just kidding your self mate... Have you ever been in an XR8? I would guess you haven't.

Edit: Spelling

hahahahaha is an MX5 a large car??

for the record, yeah i have been in an XR8 when i did an advanced driving course. i've also owned a commodore V8 in the past.
in fact of the 21 cars i've ever had, about half were RWD and one a AWD.

my comments re: the 8 & 4 were in response to Glavas' continued claims that a small FWD 4 cyl could not be fun. I will state again, i would back my XR4 against an Xr8 in a run up a winding mountain pass. if you've ever driven spiritedly up some mountain twisties, you'll know just how much fun that is.

there's no doubt the 8 would eat the 4 on a track, but you could be damn sure the 4 driver would still be having fun. although somewhere like the driver training track at Marulan in NSW, i don't think there'd be a hell of a difference.

if you want evidence of how good some FWD's have become, take a look at the video i posted earlier in this thread. it shows a mate's moderately modded XR5 on a track day at Lakeside on the gold coast. in the vid he easily takes a VL Brock Director V8 and then later is overtaken by an ex-V8 supercar but after being blasted on the straight, holds his own through the next series of corners (supposedly where torquesteer is an issue) before being blasted on the next decent straight... he was running 1:06. craig lowndes was running 1:01 on the same track in his group a "supercar" in '96 a year or two before they stopped racing there...

the major problem is RWD guys are prejudiced against the "bum draggers" and refuse to admit how good they have become compared to the old days...
again like i said before, it's a bit like

Bobman · 27-10-2010, 10:13 PM

Ever driven a Taurus?

Torque steer is one thing I really hate on V6 FWD large sedans.

AWD Chaser · 27-10-2010, 10:54 PM

I would say FWD cars are more of a pita to work on. Usually the engine bay is so full, it's hard to get to anything...

Also, for bigger jobs, like a trans R&I - it's easier on a RWD...

martinijosh · 27-10-2010, 11:02 PM

To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves.

My car is a RWD, and all the sedans and hatches at work are FWD, they have **** all power but they still battle your hands on the steering wheel if accelerating mid corner.

RWD is a more effortless and comfortable drive I find and is kinder on tyre prices because bum draggers steer and power through the same wheels wearing out tyres prematurely.

FWD's advantages are as has been mentioned, cost saving and weight. You also don't lose as much power through the driveline.

**DJM83** · 27-10-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinijosh JWM I6

To anyone who says FWD feels no different to RWD... stop, you're kidding yourselves.

My car is a RWD, and all the sedans and hatches at work are FWD, they have **** all power but they still battle your hands on the steering wheel if accelerating mid corner.

RWD is a more effortless and comfortable drive I find and is kinder on tyre prices because bum draggers steer and power through the same wheels wearing out tyres prematurely.

FWD's advantages are as has been mentioned, cost saving and weight. You also don't lose as much power through the driveline.

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving i noticed NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
But yeah the more power you make the more most will torque steer though my car isnt too bad

cheap · 27-10-2010, 11:22 PM

There would be how many +300KW FWD cars being manufactured today?

martinijosh · 27-10-2010, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving i noticed NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
But yeah the more power you make the more most will torque steer though my car isnt too bad

I came from a V8 AU into my XR5 and average day to day normal driving the is NO difference what so ever.
Giving it some hurry is where yes there is some difference
No power you say eh?

Unless you consider 4 cylinder camry and corolla sedans, yaris hatch and i30 TDI to be powerful?

The i30s are the worst - all of these cars are automatics too...