Giving way at uncontrolled intersections

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

For those on here in Vic, I'd suggest you brush up on your knowledge of the give way rules at uncontrolled intersections. Good chance there's going to be rolling blackouts across the state for at least the next few days, maybe even a week or so.

Based on my observations this evening, there's a bunch that clearly don't know the rules. Approaching a lights controlled intersection (when they're out) on the non-terminating road at sign-posted speed is NOT a good idea!

[Citroënbender]

So what you’re saying is, “Drive to the conditions”? ;-)

Dash cam would be a good thing as well, by the sound of it.

[Tonz]

faaarrt wheres Franco?

[PG2]

Originally Posted by Tonz

faaarrt wheres Franco?

He has no electrickory, so he can't log on.

[GASWAGON]

Ye 500,000 houses in Geelong area without power.

Never seen before powerline towers totally collapsed on ground.

Wind and heat terrible today!

My ex in Dandenong ranges only just got home after 4 hour wait. Trees and power lines down everywhere.

[mad2]

Originally Posted by GASWAGON

Ye 500,000 houses in Geelong area without power.

Never seen before powerline towers totally collapsed on ground.

Wind and heat terrible today!

My ex in Dandenong ranges only just got home after 4 hour wait. Trees and power lines down everywhere.

NOT this side of town...... [yet!]

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

For those on here in Vic, I'd suggest you brush up on your knowledge of the give way rules at uncontrolled intersections. Good chance there's going to be rolling blackouts across the state for at least the next few days, maybe even a week or so.

Based on my observations this evening, there's a bunch that clearly don't know the rules. Approaching a lights controlled intersection (when they're out) on the non-terminating road at sign-posted speed is NOT a good idea!

Did Somerton Road in Campbellfield/Roxburgh Park and part of Hume Highway with no traffic lights working this afternoon,

My strategy worked, approach uncontrolled intersection with enough pace that people question whether you're going to stop, so they give way to you - I got through that section faster than I ever have when the traffic lights actually work

Just ****ing send it, they'll give way, nothing different for the northern suburns of Melbourne, road rules optional anyway

The intersection of Pascoevale Rd and Somerton Road was a bit halal, good luck everyone.

Was strange at work, humid AF and disgusting in the workshop, then on the way home for 15 minutes all the rubbish people dump around Campbellfield became airborne, flying across the road, traffic lights out, complete free for all.

We just entered Hunger Games, my time has come!

Originally Posted by PG2

He has no electrickory, so he can't log on.

Parties over, I survived and the power is back on

Better luck next time AFF, I'm like a blackberry bush, right bastard that just won't **** off that occasionally gives out fruit thats not worth the effort

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

For those on here in Vic, I'd suggest you brush up on your knowledge of the give way rules at uncontrolled intersections. Good chance there's going to be rolling blackouts across the state for at least the next few days, maybe even a week or so.

Based on my observations this evening, there's a bunch that clearly don't know the rules. Approaching a lights controlled intersection (when they're out) on the non-terminating road at sign-posted speed is NOT a good idea!

Traffic lights ! what are they ??

[EBSXR6]

No injuries.
Clayton unoccupied two storey Brick Building on our Industrial Estate.
Bricks dislodged from the top storey North and South Walls.
The North wall bricks caused the roof on one of the security guard houses to collapse.
Two second storey westward facing windows blown in on the same building and glass fell onto parked car below scratched bonnet on a colleagues car.
Several large tree branches broke off.
Flooding in several other buildings.

[whitelion65]

Franco;
My strategy worked, approach uncontrolled intersection with enough pace that people question whether you're going to stop, so they give way to you - I got through that section faster than I ever have when the traffic lights actually work “

….so the same way AH’s approach roundabouts in NSW!

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Franco;
My strategy worked, approach uncontrolled intersection with enough pace that people question whether you're going to stop, so they give way to you - I got through that section faster than I ever have when the traffic lights actually work “

….so the same way AH’s approach roundabouts in NSW!

I like the way you think
It’s all good until I meet you at an intersection
I would be doing the same thing
Skilz

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whitelion65

Franco;
My strategy worked, approach uncontrolled intersection with enough pace that people question whether you're going to stop, so they give way to you - I got through that section faster than I ever have when the traffic lights actually work “

….so the same way AH’s approach roundabouts in NSW!

I love driving in Sydney, it's like people move with intent. Roundabout rules say something about give way to all vehicles currently in roundabout - first over the line has right of way

Imagine going to the bank on pension day walking behind all the oldies - now put them in cars and that's what driving in Melbourne is like

[Citroënbender]

Some days up here, are like that. Monday morning commuter zombies particularly.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Some days up here, are like that. Monday morning commuter zombies particularly.

Same boring commute to work, the last 5km of the trip can vary by 20-30 minutes depending on traffic and when you time your exit

Hume Highway/Sydney Rd in Campbellfield/Fawkner is chaos between 3-6PM and same with the surrounding local roads,

Even getting onto the Hume Freeway can be banked up from Campbellfield through Craigieburn.

Big Islamic population in the area, looking forward to Ramadan starting because all the mussies start later in the day, it will free up some road by staggering start and finish times of the local population.

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I love driving in Sydney, it's like people move with intent.

Imagine going to the bank on pension day walking behind all the oldies - now put them in cars and that's what driving in Melbourne is like

See, thats how I see Adelaide traffic.
Drive like that in Melbourne, you'd never reach your destination.


Was behind a SUV plodding along 15ks under the limit yesterday.
Sticker on the rear window telling me the car has a 7-year warranty. I think that ran out before they got home.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ford71V8

See, thats how I see Adelaide traffic.
Drive like that in Melbourne, you'd never reach your destination.


Was behind a SUV plodding along 15ks under the limit yesterday.
Sticker on the rear window telling me the car has a 7-year warranty. I think that ran out before they got home.

Adelaide is the easiest city to drive around but the locals have by far the most hectic road rage ive ever seen and I've driven in Melbourne,Adelaide, Canberra, Sydney, Brisbane and in between.

Worst drivers hands down Melbourne and Canberra.

Adelaide indicators and lane discipline in roundabouts optional, also passive aggressive driving behavior towards any car with VIC plates is mandatory, must try to cut them off at all merge points to asert SA dominance.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I love driving in Sydney, it's like people move with intent. Roundabout rules say something about give way to all vehicles currently in roundabout - first over the line has right of way

Imagine going to the bank on pension day walking behind all the oldies - now put them in cars and that's what driving in Melbourne is like

What’s a bank?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

What’s a bank?

A pack of flogs, who always gets their cut on both ends

[Citroënbender]

Daringly, to return to topic - are the outages so bad as possibly suggested yesterday evening?

[Charliewool]

Caller on 3AW from Phillip Island said they’ve been told power could be out for 5-7weeks..

[Charliewool]

To add to above (from 9 news)
Gippsland says there is no electricity in the popular Eastern Victorian tourist town of Lakes Entrance.

He said traffic lights in the town are not working, mobile phones are down and service stations are closed.

“Woolworths is wastefully throwing out all refrigerated goods due to no back-up generator,” Mr Cunningham said.
He said stores are only able to accept cash payments and described the situation as “appalling”.

Cashless society?… yeah bananas!

[roKWiz]

Why is there still such things as domestic overhead powerlines.
Didn't these go out when someone knew how to operate a ditchwitch, our little town doesn't have many.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Why is there still such things as domestic overhead powerlines.
Didn't these go out when someone knew how to operate a ditchwitch, our little town doesn't have many.

Agree completely, should be a retrofit program to put them all under ground.

They were promising that here since the ash Wednesday bushfires with the power lines near Woodend, 40 years later they're still above ground and every time it rains or gets windy they have dramas and cause region wide power outages.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Agree completely, should be a retrofit program to put them all under ground.

They were promising that here since the ash Wednesday bushfires with the power lines near Woodend, 40 years later they're still above ground and every time it rains or gets windy they have dramas and cause region wide power outages.

You will not see existing overhead power lines going underground, no one will pay for it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Itsme

You will not see existing overhead power lines going underground, no one will pay for it.

Well now we privatised all the poles and wires in our 'gold plating' exercise, of course not,

If it was still government owned then you could put pressure on them.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Why is there still such things as domestic overhead powerlines.
Didn't these go out when someone knew how to operate a ditchwitch, our little town doesn't have many.

Because privatised assets owned by corporates don't operate that way....once again Governments getting done over by business during asset sales with no conditions in the purchase contracts for such things....and ironically in the Power industry the term "gold plating" of assets gets thrown around where the electricity distributor can spend their money upgrading assets when not necessarily needed however pass on the "cost' of such upgrades to power retailers and ultimately us the public...with not much oversite.

[chinamonty]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Why is there still such things as domestic overhead powerlines.
Didn't these go out when someone knew how to operate a ditchwitch, our little town doesn't have many.

The main problem has been the transmission lines rather than local connections. I am in Dandenong and my power and phone were only out for two hours.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Why is there still such things as domestic overhead powerlines.
Didn't these go out when someone knew how to operate a ditchwitch, our little town doesn't have many.

It is really expensive to retro fit.

On a green field site (e.g. a new housing estate), the cost differential isn't so bad. Last time I saw actual costs (about +10 years ago), it was around $4k per lot for underground in a new housing estate and about $1.5 per lot for overhead in a new housing estate. Some local councils insist on undergrounding in new estates. Others, chasing population growth, don't.

Undergrounding an old overhead network can get very expensive. Rule of thumb is about six times the cost to completely redo overhead for the low voltage and 11/22kV distribution network.

But the costs don't stop there. A spot on the ground has to be found for the local distribution transformer. If there isn't enough space on the footpath, then it requires buying or compulsory acquiring about 15m2 off someone's front garden. This makes people very shirty. Next, all the houses with an overhead connection have to be converted to an underground connection. This means digging up lawns, cutting (or tunnel boring) driveways, etc. A certain (albeit small) percentage will have their water mains / sewerage / NBN / gas accidently cut in the process. Figure $5K for the average job.

When it gets to higher voltages (like 66kV and above), long underground transmission lines have other unwanted technical characterises. The short version is they are highly capacitive and cause unwanted voltage swings and transients on the network. (Even underground transmission cables around town can cause issues.) Cost of underground transmission can be up to 16 times that of overhead transmission. It is usually only cost effective to underground transmission in heavy urban areas where it would be impossible to run a new overhead transmission line.

Some other unexpected engineering issues can pop up as well. For example, underground cables don't like trees. Underground cables require some moisture in the soil, so that the soil wicks away heat loss in the cables. Obviously, trees require soil moisture to live, and during droughts, they will aggressively go chasing soil moisture. This dries out the soil near the underground cable, and dry sandy soil is more like a thermal blanket. The heat becomes trapped around the cable, which drives more moisture away. Cables run hotter and this shortens the cable asset life (under good conditions should be between 80-100 years).

There is also technology change on the horizon to consider as well. It costs considerable money per household to go from overhead to underground. Effectively, the asset owner gets a massive loan and pays it back over the next 40 years.

The cost of undergrounding is borne by everyone, regardless whether they can afford the cost or not, and regardless whether they want the extra reliability or not.

So, there is this ongoing discussion inside the electricity industry. Instead of forcing customers, should we leave it to the customer to make their own decision on reliability? Or even should we go as far as disconnecting the grid at the fringes of the network and leave it to the customer to install their own power supply.

Consider the cost of, say, a 5kW solar PV system, a 13kWh Tesla Powerwall, and a Tesla gateway is around $25k installed. The Tesla Powerwall and Gateway effectively gives the customer 13kWh UPS level resilience. And the 5kW solar PV gives them a chance to recharge the next day.

Or an alternative solution, about $7K installed, one can get a 6kW standby generator with auto-start and auto-changeover.

One final point, there are a lot of Australian based technical papers on the web that discuss the pros and cons of undergrounding, and the cost to the community. Worth having a read through them.

[Citroënbender]

Another great read - thank you!

[chinamonty]

Originally Posted by whynot

It is really expensive to retro fit.

On a green field site (e.g. a new housing estate), the cost differential isn't so bad. Last time I saw actual costs (about +10 years ago), it was around $4k per lot for underground in a new housing estate and about $1.5 per lot for overhead in a new housing estate. Some local councils insist on undergrounding in new estates. Others, chasing population growth, don't.

Undergrounding an old overhead network can get very expensive. Rule of thumb is about six times the cost to completely redo overhead for the low voltage and 11/22kV distribution network.

But the costs don't stop there. A spot on the ground has to be found for the local distribution transformer. If there isn't enough space on the footpath, then it requires buying or compulsory acquiring about 15m2 off someone's front garden. This makes people very shirty. Next, all the houses with an overhead connection have to be converted to an underground connection. This means digging up lawns, cutting (or tunnel boring) driveways, etc. A certain (albeit small) percentage will have their water mains / sewerage / NBN / gas accidently cut in the process. Figure $5K for the average job.

When it gets to higher voltages (like 66kV and above), long underground transmission lines have other unwanted technical characterises. The short version is they are highly capacitive and cause unwanted voltage swings and transients on the network. (Even underground transmission cables around town can cause issues.) Cost of underground transmission can be up to 16 times that of overhead transmission. It is usually only cost effective to underground transmission in heavy urban areas where it would be impossible to run a new overhead transmission line.

Some other unexpected engineering issues can pop up as well. For example, underground cables don't like trees. Underground cables require some moisture in the soil, so that the soil wicks away heat loss in the cables. Obviously, trees require soil moisture to live, and during droughts, they will aggressively go chasing soil moisture. This dries out the soil near the underground cable, and dry sandy soil is more like a thermal blanket. The heat becomes trapped around the cable, which drives more moisture away. Cables run hotter and this shortens the cable asset life (under good conditions should be between 80-100 years).

There is also technology change on the horizon to consider as well. It costs considerable money per household to go from overhead to underground. Effectively, the asset owner gets a massive loan and pays it back over the next 40 years.

The cost of undergrounding is borne by everyone, regardless whether they can afford the cost or not, and regardless whether they want the extra reliability or not.

So, there is this ongoing discussion inside the electricity industry. Instead of forcing customers, should we leave it to the customer to make their own decision on reliability? Or even should we go as far as disconnecting the grid at the fringes of the network and leave it to the customer to install their own power supply.

Consider the cost of, say, a 5kW solar PV system, a 13kWh Tesla Powerwall, and a Tesla gateway is around $25k installed. The Tesla Powerwall and Gateway effectively gives the customer 13kWh UPS level resilience. And the 5kW solar PV gives them a chance to recharge the next day.

Or an alternative solution, about $7K installed, one can get a 6kW standby generator with auto-start and auto-changeover.

One final point, there are a lot of Australian based technical papers on the web that discuss the pros and cons of undergrounding, and the cost to the community. Worth having a read through them.

As well as the cost being between 10 and 20 times the cost of overhead transmission the thing that everyone misses in discussions about putting high voltage underground is the cost of the thousands of signs they would have to put in telling you not to dig (same as they do with gas).
You also need to have geologically secure land when burying cables - look at what happened in Christchurch from the earthquake. Fortunately this is less of an issue for Victoria and other Australian States.