Speed Radar/Laser (Hand Held) Enforcement Rules

MikeF6E · 04-04-2011, 01:01 PM

I was definitely speeding today (had to come out from side road, onto a major road, however accelerated fast to merge with oncoming traffic -so easy to do in the G6ET!!!!!!) and in the process of looking beside/behind me to merge in, whoa and behold, on the side of the road were 2 cops , one holding a hand held and the other with head down scribbling down stuff. Almost as if they were set up on the spot to monopolise on just such a situation.

So question, can a policeman operating a hand held speed detector have you booked unless you get physically pulled over and handed a ticket or alternately have a photo record of the event?

Has anyone received a speeding ticket in this manner or know of someone (ie no camera van/car), just a copper beside his bike pointing the nasty speed gun at you and not getting pulled over by another cop down the road?

**Revolver** · 04-04-2011, 01:08 PM

* chinka chinka chinka*

That's the sound of the thread chains coming after everyone debates this.

Anyway. Yes I believe so. Depends on the state. In QLD there is a few boxes they tick on the ticket. One is in person or the like. One is by mail, & so on. On that basis, I believe yes.

2011G6E · 04-04-2011, 01:09 PM

Never heard of it...at least in Queensland. But I imagine that if they were "writing stuff down", then a stat dec from the cops with your details and time and speed of the "offence", you'd be in the crap. A statutory declaration from a person is a powerful document...when it comes from a police officer, it's even more so.

prydey · 04-04-2011, 03:17 PM

i believe the answer is no. motorbike cops with hand held devices need to pull you over to fine you. they don't have a mate sitting up the road these days, they pick you up from a long way away so just wander out and flag you down.

they often have a couple of officers there.

without photographic evidence, i doubt it would hold up in court.

GS608 · 04-04-2011, 03:25 PM

I have been told that if it's a radar reading (in car/on bike radar or hand held) then they must pull you over and hand you the ticket as the radar doesn't have a camera function. Only Constable Kodak can send speed TINs in the mail.

edit: However this is pretty old info and with the new intense focus on speed related offences has probably changed.

Pedro · 04-04-2011, 04:59 PM

Might have been testing a new radar gun. Quite a few years ago I was heading to Brisbane on the M1 and noticed four cops on an overpass pointing hand radars at the traffic. Found out some time later that they were testing new radar guns.

2011G6E · 04-04-2011, 05:23 PM

I wouldn't think theres much to worry about either. But as I said, stat dec is a very powerful piece of paper...

I work with several ex-coppers, and they all said that if a speeding fine goes to court, they would give evidence along the lines of "I observed a vehicle travelling at a speed I estimated at around 70kph, and i confirmed this with the speed gun".
This allows the cop to claim that he was the one who saw you "speeding" and estimated your speed, and the radar device was only backing up his expert judgement. This also means that if you question it further, you aren't just questioning a machine, you are questioning the word of an experienced highway patrol officer as well...which the court looks upon with some hesitation and tend not to believe you.

Turbo6FG · 04-04-2011, 05:33 PM

The court needs to determine who actually was the driver though, especially if your car can be proven to be driven by a number of people. If they don't send you the fine for 6 weeks how can you remember if you were speeding at a certain time/place when you have no notification at the time of the event?
If someone said to me 'Where were you 27 days ago?' I wouldn't have a clue. Hell, I can't even remember what I did last week.

Hence in WA they fine you regardless for 'failing to take reasonable measures to identify the driver of your vehicle'. Too many people with short memories over here!

Rodp · 04-04-2011, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo6FG

The court needs to determine who actually was the driver though, especially if your car can be proven to be driven by a number of people. If they don't send you the fine for 6 weeks how can you remember if you were speeding at a certain time/place when you have no notification at the time of the event?

I think you've got that the wrong way around unless something has changed recently. The infringement is sent to the owner of the vehicle, it's up to the owner to nominate the driver of the vehicle at the time if they weren't the driver. The court doesn't need to determine anything.

As for the OP, I'm sure I've read of instances of people on here complaining that they have received a fine in the mail that wasn't taken by a camera so it is possible. All of the radar traps I've seen have had police pull them over to have a talk, though.

Turbo6FG · 05-04-2011, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodp

I think you've got that the wrong way around unless something has changed recently. The infringement is sent to the owner of the vehicle, it's up to the owner to nominate the driver of the vehicle at the time if they weren't the driver. The court doesn't need to determine anything.

It happened to someone I know in WA. They weren't charged at all for the speeding offence (something like 50 over in a 100 zone) they were charged under section 58A for failing to take reasonable measures to identify who was driving the vehicle they were responsible for. It cost them a bit over $700 but there was no speeding offence against their name or demerit points, that charge was completely dropped by the police before it even went to court.

The reason they brought the section 58A law in over in WA was apparently because John Hughes (major car dealer) had a lot of apprentices getting caught & he was saying he didn't know who was driving & the culprits were getting off scot free. So they introduced the law to ensure that even if they couldn't get their licence they'd still get the money.

As far as I can see QLD law is the same - the responsibility is on the driver so I guess they can still fine you if you can't disprove the speeding offence but I very much doubt they could take your licence or give demerit points unless they prove who was driving.

An interesting point in the case I mentioned is that the junior officer who issued the infringement essentially lied to the owner & told him he would lose his licence if he couldn't nominate another driver. It was obviously just a scare tactic because he rang the station and spoke to a senior constable who was very good about it & told him that they didn't have a basis to issue a charge without the identity of the driver.

So in response to the OP yes they can issue you with a fine in the manner you described but there are a fair few ways out of it. Smart lawyers get people off similar stuff quite often although it depends if you want to pay 2-3-4 times the money to the lawyer to keep your points.

Rodp · 05-04-2011, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo6FG

It happened to someone I know in WA. They weren't charged at all for the speeding offence (something like 50 over in a 100 zone) they were charged under section 58A for failing to take reasonable measures to identify who was driving the vehicle they were responsible for. It cost them a bit over $700 but there was no speeding offence against their name or demerit points, that charge was completely dropped by the police before it even went to court.

I do recall an ad for Today Tonight or the other drossy show with a story such as that - probably the same guy who was a serial offender and took the larger financial hit to keep his points.

Again, unless it's recently changed, I don't believe you have that option in NSW. You either nominate who's going to wear the fine and points on the back of the infringement notice or you cop the lot. May well be state specific.

End of the day there's either a large monetary penalty if you don't cop to the offence but don't nominate the driver at the time and keep your points or a lesser fine and demerits.

mick10010 · 06-04-2011, 05:50 AM

Best way to find out is to call them and ask.

Turbo6FG · 06-04-2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodp

I do recall an ad for Today Tonight or the other drossy show with a story such as that - probably the same guy who was a serial offender and took the larger financial hit to keep his points.

End of the day there's either a large monetary penalty if you don't cop to the offence but don't nominate the driver at the time and keep your points or a lesser fine and demerits.

No I know the guy. He doesn't go on tv & it wasn't actually him driving (he would have told me if it was as I'm not a cop), it was most probably one of his employees in a company car.

I was told by a lawyer about 6 months ago that WA had the toughest laws in these situations & there was no way out without copping a hit in points or $$. He said in most other states people could still get away clean if they couldn't prove anything but that they were starting to tighten it up as the state misses out in a lot of revenue in unproven fines.

xxx000 · 06-04-2011, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodp

I think you've got that the wrong way around unless something has changed recently. The infringement is sent to the owner of the vehicle, it's up to the owner to nominate the driver of the vehicle at the time if they weren't the driver. The court doesn't need to determine anything.

As for the OP, I'm sure I've read of instances of people on here complaining that they have received a fine in the mail that wasn't taken by a camera so it is possible. All of the radar traps I've seen have had police pull them over to have a talk, though.

Rod's on the money with what he says

rancidpunx · 04-04-2011, 05:37 PM

I think you will be fine make. I believe there would have been another cop up the road pulling over the offenders. As said the LIDARs dont have a camera function (yet) and I dont think a reading is proof enough. Mostly the offenders admit guilt when they are pulled over or also by paying the fine you are admitting your guilt. If its taken to court then the cops note book is then used as evidence as well.

I would also be looking at whether they were more than 100m from the change of speed zone. To be within 100m needs written authorisation from somebody high up in the force for a speed detection device to be operated. Pretty unlikely considering it was just 2 cops and being that its pretty dangerous on a Highway not only for them but also the cars being pulled over up the road.

Antwon · 04-04-2011, 06:41 PM

i rekon youll be alright, ive always been told that if you get done by a radar, they have to pull you over to fine you.

I quite often see cops on their bikes with a radar gun out, but not even doing anything, just sitting there talking. If you were accelerating to get in front of traffic they probably didnt bother because its was too much trouble getting through the traffic to catch up.

Because the other thing to remember is, majority of cops dont actually care if your speeding, they fine you because they have a quota to meet, and its what they get payed for. So if its too much trouble for them, they will just wait for the next car.

Rodp · 04-04-2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antwon

Because the other thing to remember is, majority of cops dont actually care if your speeding, they fine you because they have a quota to meet, and its what they get payed for.

What's your source for that little gem?

Antwon · 04-04-2011, 07:56 PM

Do you honestly think that cops care if your doing 10ks over? and think their doing the community a massive favour for booking someone doing 10ks over?

Jim Goose · 04-04-2011, 07:57 PM

Im under the impression that Police have to show you your speed when detected by radar etc... so you cant get a fine in the mail.

geckoGT · 04-04-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Im under the impression that Police have to show you your speed when detected by radar etc... so you cant get a fine in the mail.

Not in QLD, they often have a hand held in one place, which radios the speed and vehicle details to a point further up the road where they pull you over.

Quote:

Because the other thing to remember is, majority of cops dont actually care if your speeding, they fine you because they have a quota to meet, and its what they get payed for. So if its too much trouble for them, they will just wait for the next car.

Absolute gold, generalise much?

For the OP, it helps a great amount to provide the state in which you were as all state legislations are different, what applies in WA may not apply in QLD.

For example, last I heard in WA they have to be able to identify the driver in a camera fine, in QLD the registered owner of the vehicle is responsible for the fine unless they can provide the details of the driver, the onus is on the registered owner.

xd8you · 06-04-2011, 08:17 AM

The first point of proving the offence is identity. If they didn't intercept you, they cant prove identity of who was driving the car. Your lucky day!

xisled · 06-04-2011, 10:17 AM

In victoria, the police can send you a fine in the mail and they do not have to show you a reading from the laser.

The owner is responsible for providing the persons details who was driving. IF the owner can not give details they will be fined.

RG · 06-04-2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xisled

In victoria, the police can send you a fine in the mail and they do not have to show you a reading from the laser.

The owner is responsible for providing the persons details who was driving. IF the owner can not give details they will be fined.

WOW, common sense and correct info. There's a new one for one of these threads.

FTE72 · 06-04-2011, 10:26 AM

I would say you were scoped by a trainee operator and his trainer.
Chalk one up to good luck, and watch out next time on that on ramp.

MAD · 06-04-2011, 10:42 AM

This incident sounds a lot like merging to Princes hwy from St.Kilda Rd in Melbourne. It's a light bend and very slight downhill followed by a slight uphill. I used to always see police just up ahead taking measurements.
I used to travel the route daily and no matter how many times I went through there, I constantly found myself paying attention to the traffic, instead of watching my speedo, and ended up creeping over by 5-10 often. Luckily it was never on an occasion when they were set up.

z80 · 06-04-2011, 10:46 AM

All my cars are registered to a company.

The fines always come to the company, not a real person.

On a particular ocassion we couldn't remember who was driving, sent them a letter saying they took to long to send the infringement notice and never heard any more of the matter.

But I do know that on another ocassion it was this :-

$600 corporate non disclosure + the original fine amount= about $1000

Second offense=registration suspension for 3 months

It's a no brainer on what I would do if a licence loss fine came in the mail...

Rodp · 06-04-2011, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by z80

All my cars are registered to a company.

The fines always come to the company, not a real person.

On a particular ocassion we couldn't remember who was driving, sent them a letter saying they took to long to send the infringement notice and never heard any more of the matter.

But I do know that on another ocassion it was this :-

$600 corporate non disclosure + the original fine amount= about $1000

Second offense=registration suspension for 3 months

It's a no brainer on what I would do if a licence loss fine came in the mail...

Ah, that's what I recall. Infringements to a company and one particular guy in his M5 kept on 'forgetting' that he was the driver, opting to pay out a huge fine. Obviously they've closed that loophole.

snap · 07-04-2011, 05:01 AM

Imperial Acts Application Act - Section 8 clause 12 states that ,
All promises of fines and forfeitures before conviction of any person are illegal and void. A Commonwealth Law that ensures that by fining a person for anything without conviction is a Federal Offence.
If you are to go to court you are to be judged by a panel of your peers ( jury ) not a Magistrate. If you agree to Magistrates Court you are basically admitting guilt.
All speed devices in Australia are not registered with the Measurements Act , Cameras are digital and they have to provide evidence they have not been altered in any way.
I do not believe in speeding but we the people must stand up to these revenue raising tactics using unregistered/proven devices. If enough people voice their Will the governments must act on it.
No private company has the right to fine anyone only federal and state governments.
Some good links on ASF site.