Clearing Up Myths About E85 And Ethanol: 16 Things You Need To Know

[solarite_guy]

By Jeff Smith March 16, 2018

http://www.fordnxt.com/tech-stories/...-need-to-know/

Over the years we’ve seen all sorts of misinformation floating around the web on various forums and other social media interfaces with respect to E85 and ethanol fuels, so in the interest of education, we’ve taken some of those questions and put them into a Q&A format for you, dear reader. Without further ado, here are 16 things you need to know to maximize your E-xperience.

Q: What is ethanol?
A. Ethanol is a fuel created from the distillation of sugar. This fuel comes from renewable resources, such as corn and sugar cane. This fuel has certain advantageous attributes that make it a popular fuel for performance and racing. Currently NASCAR uses a race gasoline mixed with 15-percent ethanol, and the Indycar Series racers that initially switched from methanol to E98 subsequently converted to E85 in 2012.

E85 Burning Indy Car Image
http://cdn.speednik.com/wp-content/b...-32_427768.jpg

Q: What is E85?
A: Anytime you see gasoline with an E prefix, that indicates the fuel contains a given percentage of ethanol. So E10 would contain 10-percent ethanol, E30 is 30-percent ethanol by volume and so on. This makes E85 a fuel with 85-percent ethanol and 15-percent gasoline. Along these same lines, E0 would indicate no ethanol is added to the gasoline.

Q: I’ve heard that ethanol is corrosive.
A: Ethanol by itself is not corrosive. E98 will likely contain an average of 0.5-percent water. This is because it is extremely expensive to remove that last bit of water. When ethanol is mixed with sufficient amounts of water, this can cause corrosion, but the effects can be minimized with easy steps such as keeping the fuel tank full when the vehicle is stored. Oddly, ethanol is also an excellent cleaner and will remove deposits often left by “bad gas.” Ethanol is often mistaken or linked with a fuel called methanol, a wood- or petroleum-based alcohol that is especially corrosive when stored in solution with bare aluminum. Ethanol is not an acid and has little effect on aluminum fuel system components.

Q: What is E85’s octane rating?
A: Gasoline is most often rated on an anti-knock index (AKI) that averages both a research and motor octane number. Premium pump gasoline (E10) is most commonly found with either 91 or 93 AKI. E85 has an octane rating between 100 and 105. You will read claims that can vary by a tremendous amount. This number can vary depending upon some complex ways that octane is measured which do not take into account E85’s ability to cool the inlet air.

As ethanol becomes a more accepted alternative fuel, you will begin to see more blender pumps that will offer percentages of ethanol like E15, E30 or E85.

Q: Can I pump E85 into the gas tank and run it?
A: If your car is a factory-built Flex-Fuel Vehicle (FFV) the answer is yes. But for a typical late-model car the answer is no without making significant changes to the amount of fuel delivered by the fuel injectors. Older carbureted cars and performance cars can be adapted to take advantage of this fuel’s outstanding octane and cooling benefits.

Q: What is the difference between ethanol and methanol? I’ve heard that methanol is nasty stuff and really corrosive.
A: Ethanol (sometimes referred to as E98) is simply no different than distilled spirits – sippin’ whiskey, if you will. The other 2-percent is gasoline, so it should definitely not be consumed. This fuel offers many of the benefits of using alcohol as a fuel with fewer of the negative side effects. Methanol is often called wood alcohol, or it can be made from natural gas. Methanol is toxic and should not be ingested. Methanol also has a lower heat content. However the BTU (heat) content of methanol is roughly half that of gasoline, which means you have to burn twice as much to make the same heat. Methanol is also more corrosive than ethanol, which is why ethanol is a better choice for street-driven engines. Indy cars prior to 2006 used methanol, converted for a short time to E98 and now run E85. NASCAR recently switched to Green E15 for the Cup cars.

Q: What is denatured alcohol – is that different from ethanol or E85?
A: Both start as ethanol, which is a spirit derived from any number of sources, the common being corn and (or) grains. Denaturing adds a small percentage of a poison like gasoline to the ethanol to render it toxic to ingest. This is done to allow its manufacture for purposes other than for human consumption. Other than the additive, it is usually straight ethanol, although our sources indicate that fuel grade ethanol has impurities like iso-butanol, which will certainly make someone very ill if consumed.

Q: Can I just increase the size of the jets in my carburetor and use E85?
A: The simple answer is that this probably will not work. E85 has roughly 25- to 30-percent less heat per pound of fuel so you need to increase the size of the jetting by roughly that much. So if the stock jetting was 75, it would require as large as 100 to 105 jets. This becomes an issue because the rest of the carburetor is not appropriately sized to meter that much fuel. It’s better to invest in an E85-designed carburetor. There are several companies that offer E85-specific model carburetors.

A quick way to measure a percentage of ethanol in gasoline like E85 is with this simple glass vial tester from Holley. Add a measured amount of water with the fuel, and mix it. The water will separate the fuel from the gasoline and display the ethanol percentage.

Q: Why does an engine require more E85 to make power compared to gasoline?
A: This has to do with ethanol’s chemical makeup. Because ethanol contains oxygen, it produces less heat for the same volume of fuel. As an example, a gallon of gasoline typically will produce 114,000 BTUs of heat while ethanol comes in at a lower rating of 76,600 BTUs per gallon. You will read estimates of 15- to 18-percent loss in mileage-per-gallon when using E85 compared to gasoline in flex-fuel vehicles (FFV). But an interesting change occurs with E85. It has a much greater cooling effect on the inlet air than gasoline and also delivers a much higher 98 to 100 octane rating. For any engine that can benefit from a fuel with a higher octane, it’s common to see a significant power improvement when using E85. This is especially true with supercharged or turbocharged engines. For naturally-aspirated, street-driven vehicles, there will be a mileage penalty with E85 compared to gasoline.

Q: I’ve read that all gasoline sold in the U.S. contains 10 percent ethanol. Is that true?
A: Not entirely. However, currently 96- to 97-percent of pump gasoline sold in the U.S. is blended with what averages to 10-percent ethanol. This was part of the EPA’s Reformulated Fuel Standard (RFS) that eliminated or reduced the use of other octane-enhancing additives that were deemed dangerous. In certain portions of the country you can purchase E0 or gasoline that does not contain ethanol. However, these fuels are blended with much higher concentrations of octane improving chemicals called aromatics that increase the emission of exhaust toxins.

Q: I’ve read several magazine stories where supercharged engines really benefit from E85. Is there any advantage to using E85 for a naturally-aspirated engine?
A: Absolutely. First, E85 offers an excellent octane or anti-knock index (AKI) rated between 100 and 105 octane. This can allow increasing the static compression ratio up to as much as 13.0 to 14.5:1 and will certainly improve performance on engines even at 11.0:1. Plus, E85 reduces inlet air temperatures which improves power by cooling the air entering the cylinder. Cooler air is denser, which adds power. There will be significant tuning changes necessary when using E85 instead of gasoline, but high-compression engines can especially benefit from E85.

If you are interested in a more exact test of ethanol percentage of blending, Kent-Moore has a tool that accurately measures the blended percentage of ethanol in the fuel. You can find this listed under PN J44175.

Q: I hear one of the advantages of E85 is something called heat of vaporization. What does that mean?
A: The term most commonly used is latent heat of vaporization. What this refers to is the amount of heat required to convert a liquid—in this case E85—into a gas or vapor at a constant temperature and pressure. What this means is that when ethanol vaporizes, it pulls heat out of the air in the process, which cools the surrounding air. Ethanol has three times the cooling effect, by volume, than gasoline and four times the cooling based on BTU content. Cooling the inlet air simultaneously reduces the engine’s sensitivity to octane. This is why engines tend to knock or detonate with higher inlet air temperatures. When E85 fuel vaporizes in the intake manifold, it cools the air, making the engine less sensitive to detonation.

Q: I’ve heard that the percentage of ethanol in E85 can vary. Is there an easy way to test the actual percentages of ethanol and gasoline?
A: There are several inexpensive E85 testers on the market. Most of them merely have you add a specific amount of water into a tube and fill the rest with your E85 fuel test sample. The water will separate out the gasoline and you can read the percentage right on the side of the tube. This is a simple test that can have an error factor of up to five-percent. The more precise tools are the hand-held electronic devices that are within one-percent. There are also OE sensors that are designed to be permanently mounted in the vehicle’s fuel line. Percentages of E85 will vary most often during winter when the percentage of gasoline is increased to improve cold weather starting for Flex-fuel vehicles.

Production flex-fuel engines are designed to run on differing percentages of ethanol, requiring an ethanol content sensor in the fuel system. Several companies, including Innovate Motorsports, offer a gauge that will display the percentage of ethanol in the fuel using one of these factory flex-fuel sensors.

Q: I keep reading about E98. Why isn’t it just E100 – pure ethanol?
A: The term E98 is used as a more accurate accounting of the total amount of ethanol. For the practical purposes of using ethanol as a fuel, E98 is essentially just ethyl-alcohol or ethanol plus 2-percent gasoline so that it cannot be consumed.

Q: I’ve been told that if I put E85 in my older muscle car, I will have to use a special and very expensive PTFE fuel line. Is that true?
A: It is a good practice to replace the original fuel system in an older car when building a performance car, with the emphasis on eliminating corroded, bent, or otherwise damaged fuel line with fresh new material. While ethanol has taken the blame for much of the “damage” that has occurred from reformulated gasoline (RFG), it’s important to point out that 25-percent of US fuel contains aromatics that are also detrimental to fuel systems. Over time, it has been shown that it is these aromatics, and not necessarily the ethanol, that can cause fuel system damage. The polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) linings now popular for performance fuel systems is similar to what the OE manufacturers use for fuel systems today. It is not mandatory that you use the PTFE style fuel line, but it will offer long-term reliability.

Q: I know that pure alcohol burns almost invisible in daylight. Does E85 also burn invisibly?
A: Pure methanol (wood alcohol) burns with a pale blue light that is nearly invisible in daylight. This may be what you are referring to. Straight ethanol, the alcohol used in E85, burns with a pale yellow flame. Under bright daylight conditions, burning E98 will be very difficult to see. Mixing 15 percent gasoline with ethanol (E85) produces a much more orange hue to the flame, making it very easy to see in daylight and therefore much safer as it relates to seeing the flame.

Q: I hear that E85 is not really E85 anymore. What is it?
A: The American section of the International Society for Testing and Measurements (ASTM) fuel standards and other regulatory rules now call out Ethanol Flex Fuel instead of E85. This allows the fuel regulations to provide the same fuel properties throughout the entire country to be anywhere from E51 to E83. If that sounds confusing—it’s because it is! The point is you will need to be aware of the fuel coming out of that yellow-handled pump—it often will not be true E85.

We hope this has cleared up some of the misconceptions and “So I heard” questions you may have related to the use of E85 and (or) ethanol in your hot rod. Thanks for reading!

NOTE: There is a little confusion in the article, but the main points come across okay.

[GASWAGON]

Hey S.G!

E85 and LPG both have very similar octane ratings and they also both help cool the intake air/oxygen on the intake stroke which helps make a bigger bang.

One good thing i have been noticing lately is that E10 has been 4cents cheaper than 91 (United servo's) which now makes it sort of worth buying as previously i would'nt buy it as it was only 2 cents cheaper than 91.

I'm going to start running E10 in my wagon and my bike i think.

Will keep an eye on tank ranges and its also 95 octane so you should get a bit more power/performance.

[solarite_guy]

Hi CB,

Around here we can't get away from E10 or E15. But the way they formulate it, nothing changes with the octane or the cost. Nothing we can do about it legally.

Cheers.

[Trump]

It also needs to be said that running E10 in a fair amount of the cars on the road in Australia is a false economy. This is due to the increased fuel consumption more than offsetting the small discount at the pump.

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by Trump

It also needs to be said that running E10 in a fair amount of the cars on the road in Australia is a false economy. This is due to the increased fuel consumption more than offsetting the small discount at the pump.

I just happen to have my handy, dandy fuel stoichiometric mapping tables here to show your point:



Unfortunately it is incomplete for E10, but still gets the idea across at standard AFR.

It drops from 14.7:1 to 14.0:1 ~ 14.1:1 at standard AFR/stoichiometric. For folks not familiar that is a mass ratio not volume of air to fuel.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

I just happen to have my handy, dandy fuel stoichiometric mapping tables here to show your point:

image

Unfortunately it is incomplete for E10, but still gets the idea across at standard AFR.

It drops from 14.7:1 to 14.0:1 ~ 14.1:1 at standard AFR/stoichiometric. For folks not familiar that is a mass ratio not volume of air to fuel.

A simpler explanation is that there's less energy in a litre of E10 than there is in a litre of straight ULP
Unless E10 is about 10 cents a litre less, it's really not worth considering...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Trump

It also needs to be said that running E10 in a fair amount of the cars on the road in Australia is a false economy. This is due to the increased fuel consumption more than offsetting the small discount at the pump.

Thats where it pays to shop wise where possible.
We've recently had a Liberty open up in our area which carries e10, at some point in every week the e10 is as much as 30c cheaper than the 91 ulp and as a result is cheaper to run it.
We keep our cars above 50% full where possible which allows us to get through the cycle and take advantage of the cheaper e10, 35l in my wifes Camry at 30c less per litre saves around $10pw and only pushes the average consumption out by .5l/100km.
In addition, my Sons VE is a flex fuel model and runs much smoother on the e10 than 91ulp.

[Bill M]

A list of material compatibility with E85.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Thats where it pays to shop wise where possible.
We've recently had a Liberty open up in our area which carries e10, at some point in every week the e10 is as much as 30c cheaper than the 91 ulp and as a result is cheaper to run it.
We keep our cars above 50% full where possible which allows us to get through the cycle and take advantage of the cheaper e10, 35l in my wifes Camry at 30c less per litre saves around $10pw and only pushes the average consumption out by .5l/100km.
In addition, my Sons VE is a flex fuel model and runs much smoother on the e10 than 91ulp.

At a 30cpl discount compared to 91, it's a no brainer. But at the usual 2-4cpl discount, it makes no sense.

[DMXR6T]

Originally Posted by Trump

It also needs to be said that running E10 in a fair amount of the cars on the road in Australia is a false economy. This is due to the increased fuel consumption more than offsetting the small discount at the pump.

E10 is usually 94 octane so it should be compared to premuim 95 or 98. If you have an engine that needs more than 91 then E10 is good value. I do not notice an significant difference in fuel economy between E10 and "normal" petrol but I have not done an accurate test.

Other factor to consider is that E10 is 10% renewable.

[au350hp]

Great posts Gents. I happily admit I knew little about E85 so I was glad to get some facts. Out of curiosity, I went to a couple of servo's that are listed as suppliers of these fuels to find they are not stocked. It seems that only a handful carry these fuel types which must make it difficult if the car is tuned to run on it?

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by DMXR6T

E10 is usually 94 octane so it should be compared to premuim 95 or 98. If you have an engine that needs more than 91 then E10 is good value. I do not notice an significant difference in fuel economy between E10 and "normal" petrol but I have not done an accurate test.

Other factor to consider is that E10 is 10% renewable.

But no manufacturers specify “over 91 octane” generally it’ll be “95 octane or higher” so e10 at 94 octane just misses the cut. Not a risk I’d take for ethanol fuel and poorer economy.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by DMXR6T

E10 is usually 94 octane so it should be compared to premuim 95 or 98. If you have an engine that needs more than 91 then E10 is good value. I do not notice an significant difference in fuel economy between E10 and "normal" petrol but I have not done an accurate test.

Other factor to consider is that E10 is 10% renewable.

Read the first few posts of this thread, they will explain why octane rating alone doesn't describe why all things being equal, a car will use more E10 than straight RON91 petrol for a given distance.

[uniacidz]

Originally Posted by Trump

Read the first few posts of this thread, they will explain why octane rating alone doesn't describe why all things being equal, a car will use more E10 than straight RON91 petrol for a given distance.

Octane is round 94 so can be a alternative if car is tuned to E85, 95 and 98

Yes you use up more but also get more killawasps

Difference is like 5% or so more usage then comparable 95 but also 50cents cheaper per litre.

$1.10 E10
$1.59 95ron all day

Even topping up half tank 35litres I can save $17.15

Double that saving for a full tank

Oh and use the NSW Fuelcheck app if in NSW and can see prices of favourite stations in area you save as a favourite.
Great app

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

[au350hp]

Here is an interesting article related to these fuel types in the states.

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/0...el/?refer=news

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Trump

It also needs to be said that running E10 in a fair amount of the cars on the road in Australia is a false economy. This is due to the increased fuel consumption more than offsetting the small discount at the pump.

Yes that's true, but some cars from 2000 on that are really tuned for 95 but you can run 91 in as most people do, but would get an advantage in performance and economy if they ran 95 and i not mentioning the cost here say.
Now in such a case of E10 94 octane most will pick up on performance for sure and as to fuel economy generally no.
Now my VY SS could get the same economy on the highway with E10 94 and 91 an 95 and 98 proven time and time again if driven easy, but with air-con on E10 failed badly and if one drove harder E10 fails.

Their is a E10 91 getting around as well and I found it still performed a bit better than 91.

My wife's Aurion went like a rocket on E10 94 when I drove from Brisbane to Adelaide and back, out west did not have E10 and yep I could feel the difference for sure when flat to the boards over taking, I was really impressed with E10 94 and with the 91 it was like no this is not impressive at all.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

My wife's Aurion went like a rocket on E10 94 when I drove from Brisbane to Adelaide and back...

Did you test the 0-100km/h time out? I bet it was under 5 seconds on E10.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

Did you test the 0-100km/h time out? I bet it was under 5 seconds on E10.

Yes I did

Even the wife who was not driving made a point of it's performance on E10.

I am not a fan of 0 100km/h but of 100km/h and beyond is the practical test.

I would say that the car is tuned truly to run on 95 octane and that 91 is just retarding the spark timing.
It will spin the wheels easy as on take off with E10 but it will not on 91.

These Aurions flog the 3.6L Commodores and the 4.0L Falcons, not the Turbo, but I hate FWD cars myself, but just plodding about on the highway it's fine and good at overtaking not to mention it can do 230KM/H so if you had to go the Darwin it would be ok, you will not be complaining.

Dirt roads well forget it, it's just rubbish to drive on that, the understeer and noise of stones being churned up by the front wheels really gets to you.

[solarite_guy]

Sorry, I thought it was self explanatory.

What would you say, 14:1 is roughly 5% less than 14.7:1? Little less.

So to roughly break even I would want the E10 to cost about 5% less than the straight petrol.

Some times my pit road thinking doesn't translate the way I think it would.

[cheap]

The energy derived from burning fuel (which is what an engine does) is heat. Heat/Energy is measured in BTU not in Stoichiometer.

E85 has roughly 72% BTU compared to gasoline.

E10 has roughly 98% BTU compared to gasoline.

LPG has roughly 80% BTU compared to gasoline.

Diesel has roughly 113% BTU compared to gasoline.

Using BTU is a high level explanation of what is happening. An engine needs to consume more E10/E85/LPG to create the same energy as it would have to if it ran on gasoline. This explains why diesel vehicles get better mileage than their gasoline cousins too.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by cheap

The energy derived from burning fuel (which is what an engine does) is heat. Heat/Energy is measured in BTU not in Stoichiometer.

E85 has roughly 72% BTU compared to gasoline.

E10 has roughly 98% BTU compared to gasoline.

LPG has roughly 80% BTU compared to gasoline.

Diesel has roughly 113% BTU compared to gasoline.

Using BTU is a high level explanation of what is happening. An engine needs to consume more E10/E85/LPG to create the same energy as it would have to if it ran on gasoline. This explains why diesel vehicles get better mileage than their gasoline cousins too.

And all this time I thought you were Australian

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by cheap

The energy derived from burning fuel (which is what an engine does) is heat. Heat/Energy is measured in BTU not in Stoichiometer.

E85 has roughly 72% BTU compared to gasoline.

E10 has roughly 98% BTU compared to gasoline.

LPG has roughly 80% BTU compared to gasoline.

Diesel has roughly 113% BTU compared to gasoline.

Using BTU is a high level explanation of what is happening. An engine needs to consume more E10/E85/LPG to create the same energy as it would have to if it ran on gasoline. This explains why diesel vehicles get better mileage than their gasoline cousins too.

I find it interesting though, how an internal combustion, reciprocating engine converts the available energy to power doesn't exactly match the BTU charts vs gasoline. I am sure there are characteristics of how each burns and how each lends itself to getting trapped for combustion helps explain some of this. Should also mention the tuning tables are weight and not volume ratios which is probably the biggest reason for variance to the BTU table as they are often based on volume.

That's why I like the standardized tuning references expressed in stoichiometeric value. Of course those are simply baseline references. Each particular engine build will have it's own variation.

[73 4V XB]

Wish I had read up on E85 before I built my motor. I was asked what fuel I intended using I went with 98.

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by 73 4V XB

Wish I had read up on E85 before I built my motor. I was asked what fuel I intended using I went with 98.

At least with 98 you can go almost anywhere in Aus and not struggle to find fuel. For me, E85 is pointless since no local places have it.

[73 4V XB]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

At least with 98 you can go almost anywhere in Aus and not struggle to find fuel. For me, E85 is pointless since no local places have it.

The car won’t hit the streets.



The local po po have a thing about bald tyres and bonnet scoops

[solarite_guy]

It's true, from a power standpoint the E85 has the potential for more power and less chance of damaging detonation, etc. The pita aspect is in the consistency/inconsistency of what you may get from the pump.

What I've seen a lot of folks like better is VPs C85. They keep it sealed in a drum in a dark cool place. Being in drums, the dark part probably doesn't help much.

[LTDHO]

It reads like a salesmans pitch.

[solarite_guy]

It certainly is aimed at removing and reducing obstacles from decision making regarding the E fuels.

[GASWAGON]

Thers a new LPG system being developed at the moment that will blow the doors off most petrol XR6T/F6310 or V8 GT's. ( And also 6.2 Litre LS3's)

Give me a couple of months and we'll have the new website up to date with all the info on how the system works.

We're aiming for 400-500KW's from XR6T/F6310 Barra engines.

[yearby]

I sort of get the feeling a lot of people are against the idea of ethanol, but I for one are all for it.

So let look at it from my point of view.

I was travelling to work, same route, same time very day, and My BF Falcon ute was getting 16.3 litres/100km on E10 according to the vehicle average fuel meter. When the E10 was discontinued (it's no longer available here), I switched to premium 95 and was getting 16.1 litres/100km.

0.2liters/100km don't seem much to me but still, lets work it out.

Now we need a bit of back ground information here.
My ute is designated to run on unleaded 92, E10, or Premium 95.
On unleaded 92, it tends to be a little sluggish with a slight deterioration in fuel economy.
On E10 and premium 95 it seems to be more responsive.
E10 here was 95 octane.
And E10 at the time was cheaper than unleaded 92.

Today the average price for fuel is-

ULP 92 is $1.456 per litre.
PULP 95 is $1.592 per litre.

Lets do the math-
My car was using more E10 and using todays price for ULP92.

16.3/16.1 X $1.456 = $1.474.......approximately for the same distance travelled.
But premium is $159.2 for the same distance travelled.

So E10 was cheaper in the long run.

I never ever had any problems with the fuel, and I must admit I did change to the E10 because I am a bit of save the planet, but I am also an obsessive car enthusiast and it was my way of having it both ways.

Peter