Who will buy an electric car when they are available?

[Stagg]

Ok so half the people on this thread know that I'm really into the whole sustainable living idea, and I for one know that as soon as I can I'm financing an electric car.

recently the Tesla model S was released in America, and I found it to be practical, attractive, actually ahs a decent range, and isn't bad on performance. Have a look:









Apparently the price is going to be anywhere from US $50k to about US $75K depending on how many batteries and which package etc.

I would sure as anything buy one for $50k if they are available in Australia any time soon. Would any one else be sold on the idea of electric cars if they were all practical?

[dylby1]

No. I wont

[2011G6E]

I will, given a few provisions...
* It must not cost any extra over a "normal" car.
* It must seat five adults with decent room.
* It has to have a minimum range of 500km.
* It has to recharge from a normal household power point at home in three or four hours.
* It has to refill at a "filling station" in ten minutes or less.
* They have to guarantee that the batteries will last at least ten years.
* It can sit on 110kph for hours with a full load on board in typical central Queensland summer heat reliably. With air con going.

Too many of these things are spruiked as being the latest and greatest solution to everything...but when you start asking a few hard questions, they say something like "Well they're not really targeted at country people".
Too bad...you can't make a car for a limited city-based market and expect it to sell in big numbers, not everyone lives in the city, and if it's "really only meant for the city", then it defeats the environmental purpose because you have to then buy a second car when you want to go on trips.

A few awkward questions also spring up about "filling them up"...who pays for the chain of stations that will have to be built across the nation every couple of hundred kilometers? Who pays for the upgrades to the power network to cope with the extra demand and also the extra transmission lines to the various stations?

You also have to ignore a few uncomfortable things going on in the background...the filthy process of mining rare earth minerals and shipping them around the world to process into raw materials for the vehicles, the "tailpipe exhaust shifting", where you are simply shifting the exhaust from your tailpipe to a coal fired power station somewhere else...

I'm not saying electric-only cars won't become more common...but there's quite a few large and expensive hurdles to overcome before they become truly useful for everyone except a few trendy people in the big cities...

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I'm not saying electric-only cars won't become more common...but there's quite a few large and expensive hurdles to overcome before they become truly useful for everyone except a few trendy people in the big cities...

Undoubtedly agree.

Essentially a huge proportion of Australia's infratructure is going to have to change inevitably, including renewable energy as well as electric cars.

EV companies are still in their baby stage, it will pick up eventually.

I just don't see the point in Hybrid cars, they use a small petrol motor to power an electric motor, although they still rely on petrol which defeats the purpose of being green. EV's can of course be powered by grid power, although there is the option of going solar as well to power them.

What some companies in the US are doing is selling a package, so you buy an EV with a PV system big enough to power the car for what you need to do for your weekly driving.

[demood]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

A few awkward questions also spring up about "filling them up"...who pays for the chain of stations that will have to be built across the nation every couple of hundred kilometers? Who pays for the upgrades to the power network to cope with the extra demand and also the extra transmission lines to the various stations?

You also have to ignore a few uncomfortable things going on in the background...the filthy process of mining rare earth minerals and shipping them around the world to process into raw materials for the vehicles, the "tailpipe exhaust shifting", where you are simply shifting the exhaust from your tailpipe to a coal fired power station somewhere else...

I'm not saying electric-only cars won't become more common...but there's quite a few large and expensive hurdles to overcome before they become truly useful for everyone except a few trendy people in the big cities...

Totally agree, the only way we'll be able to generate enough power for these vehicles to become mainstream is by....

Putting in a couple of Nuclear Power stations!!

[fou_bleu]

I think it's important to define what kind of electric car we are talking about here, because as we know, different cars are designed to do different things.

As we know, hybrids were the first step to cleaner motoring (whilst turning out to being even dirtier in the long run). Plug-in hybrids (PHEV) are the next big thing and ultimately refine the basic hybrid principle - cleaner to produce, further pure electric range and only need small engines to charge them. Full battery electric vehicles (BEV) are not that far off from becoming mainstream (Ford Focus Electric) what we should be focusing on when discussing electric vehicles - these are the cars that will be replacing the fleet of ICE vehicles in the not too distant future.

For this thread, I think pure BEVs, designed from the ground up to be BEVs are the best example to use - and Tesla is the most promising / biggest electric only car company out there.

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I will, given a few provisions...
1. It must not cost any extra over a "normal" car.
2. It must seat five adults with decent room.
3. It has to have a minimum range of 500km.
4. It has to recharge from a normal household power point at home in three or four hours.
5. It has to refill at a "filling station" in ten minutes or less.
6. They have to guarantee that the batteries will last at least ten years.
7. It can sit on 110kph for hours with a full load on board in typical central Queensland summer heat reliably. With air con going.

1. For a while BEVs will cost more than the equiv. ICE car - new technology is always expensive, you'll never escape it.
2., 3., 4. & 5. - http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/specs
6. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/faq - "Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)." Will only get better...
7. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/faq - "Accessory use does not have a dramatic impact on driving range. Exact range fluctuates based on vehicle speed, driving style, road conditions, and weather. Holding these factors constant, using higher consumption accessories like climate control will reduce range approximately five to ten percent."

Too many of these things are spruiked as being the latest and greatest solution to everything...but when you start asking a few hard questions, they say something like "Well they're not really targeted at country people".

Any one affiliated with the auto industry would never say their product is the solution for everyone - quotes and sources are needed for that one I'm afraid. Affordable BEVs (Focus BEV etc.) won't suffice for longer trips than around 100km return, so there is work to be done there - cue Tesla and their 480km range on the Model S (of which the technology will trickle down from).

Too bad...you can't make a car for a limited city-based market and expect it to sell in big numbers, not everyone lives in the city, and if it's "really only meant for the city", then it defeats the environmental purpose because you have to then buy a second car when you want to go on trips.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but I'm pretty sure that the majority of our population do live in urban areas that even the most basic BEV's can cater for. Remember, as technology advances, range gets further and recharge time drops. If you frequently make long trips, keep your / buy an ICE car or a BEV that can go further (if funds and desire allow).

A few awkward questions also spring up about "filling them up"...who pays for the chain of stations that will have to be built across the nation every couple of hundred kilometers? Who pays for the upgrades to the power network to cope with the extra demand and also the extra transmission lines to the various stations?

I agree, this is the biggest issue AT THE MOMENT with BEV (especially in Australia, the U.S. and Europe are going gang busters on making viable networks) - but to think the industries haven't thought of this and aren't working on solutions?! As for grid demand? There's already solar charging kits available from Ford (of all companies) for the Focus BEV - a must buy IMO to make the most out of the prospect of an electric car.

You also have to ignore a few uncomfortable things going on in the background...the filthy process of mining rare earth minerals and shipping them around the world to process into raw materials for the vehicles, the "tailpipe exhaust shifting", where you are simply shifting the exhaust from your tailpipe to a coal fired power station somewhere else...

I agree that something has to be done, but as with everything else, with time and money comes improvements. If you're buying a BEV for its environmental benefits, you'd buy things like said solar panels to potentially create true emission free driving.

I'm not saying electric-only cars won't become more common...but there's quite a few large and expensive hurdles to overcome before they become truly useful for everyone except a few trendy people in the big cities...

Yes, there are hurdles, like all new technology, but those "trendy people in the big cities" are the ones that will make future BEVs more accessible and more viable to replace the ICE family car.

[bullfrog]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Too many of these things are spruiked as being the latest and greatest solution to everything...but when you start asking a few hard questions, they say something like "Well they're not really targeted at country people".
Too bad...you can't make a car for a limited city-based market and expect it to sell in big numbers, not everyone lives in the city, and if it's "really only meant for the city", then it defeats the environmental purpose because you have to then buy a second car when you want to go on trips.

Unfortunately "most" people live in cities. Of the 5 million or so people in Victoria 3.5 million live in Melbourne, Ballarat or Bendigo. All of these eco-friendly cars are designed around a "commuting" lifestyle.
I live in the country, I know where your coming from, these cars won't work for us.

[HULK EF]

It' a lot of coin to cough up to be free of petrol stations..

any commo or falcon especialy on LPG would take along tim to get anywhere near the total outlay in ownership of this $50G + model.

+add alot to the total if those are the "American price's"..

[Stagg]

Originally Posted by HULK EF

It' a lot of coin to cough up to be free of petrol stations..

any commo or falcon especialy on LPG would take along tim to get anywhere near the total outlay in ownership of this $50G + model.

+add alot to the total if those are the "American price's"..

It seems to me like for starters it would be in the same bracket as luxury cars, namely Jaguar etc.

There is also the Nissan Leaf:

http://www.caradvice.com.au/152116/n...ing-announced/

Not as fancy, although currently being trialed in Melbourne, seen a few of the blue ones passing on the tram

[kaniSS]

I will only buy one if;

1 - They charge up to FULL real quick.
2 - 1 full charge can take me further than 400km at least.
3 - If they go hard and sound nice.
4- If the design is appealing and not like a stupid Prius.
5 - If the costs are reasonable and I am not gouged a premium because it electric.
6 - and finally when they stop calling them stupid names....


I don't see why not.

[2011G6E]

I think Chevypower said it all with point four in his little list...

4. They have uncompromised performance.

That covers everything that we've brought up here..."uncompromised performance" can mean everything from seating to range to driving performance to convenience to costs and so-on when compared with a normal car...it covers the lot...


I could also add "Guaranteed buyback by the company when the batteries are near the end of their life if you want to sell it"...because face it, the thing will be worth bugger all on the second hand market if the potential buyers know the batteries are nearing the end of their life...no one wants that cost not long after buying what is an expensive car anyway...

[chevypower]

I would like a Fisker Karma, but I can't afford one. I prefer it to the equivalents (Panamera, Quattroporte, Rapide).

I would buy an electric car when:
1. I have the money.
2. They charge within a few minutes.
3. They have good range.
4. They have uncompromised performance.

[Bad Bird]

But then you're going to get the people who hear the word 'nuclear' and get into an irrational, non-fact-based panic...

[pottery beige]

hippies.....

[dimka100]

Any petrol car sold out there is far more efficient at generating power than a coal power station! so while the marketing material is talking about electric vehicles being green, when power by coal power they are actually worse than 7ltr V8s from the 60s ...

Until the world switches over to proper green power such as nuclear (e.g. France) such cars are a mere marketing spin for idiots.

In Australia, with one of the worlds dirties methods of generating electricity, buying such a car could only mean two things:
1. You are a total ignorant idiot.
2. You are a total ignorant idiot who wants to be seen as a green hipy.

[Barnaby]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Any petrol car sold out there is far more efficient at generating power than a coal power station! so while the marketing material is talking about electric vehicles being green, when power by coal power they are actually worse than 7ltr V8s from the 60s ...

Quote your source...

Lithium ion technology is taking over the bad, heavy metal based battery technologies (NiCad, NiMH etc), its easy to recycle and chemically inert.

People forget the used oil from conventional engines at the moment, the energy to recycle, dispose of or dump and the environmental impact.

My next car will most likely be a hybrid or full electric. I'm happy to be a guinea pig just like the people who bought the model T while the others bitched about never giving up their horse & cart!

Having said all this, my next weekend cruiser/toy will have a V8 in it.

[madmatty]

Didn't they test a tesla on top gear.it stopped dead after a few laps at pace.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Barnaby

Quote your source...

Lithium ion technology is taking over the bad, heavy metal based battery technologies (NiCad, NiMH etc), its easy to recycle and chemically inert.

People forget the used oil from conventional engines at the moment, the energy to recycle, dispose of or dump and the environmental impact.

My next car will most likely be a hybrid or full electric. I'm happy to be a guinea pig just like the people who bought the model T while the others bitched about never giving up their horse & cart!

Having said all this, my next weekend cruiser/toy will have a V8 in it.

i would just like to add "nickel metal hydride" (NiMH) a superior battery owned by the chevron oil company who patended it not to be used in comesial vehicle's...

[noosacuda]

My first and only electric car will be a mobility scooter! I wont need one for another 30+ years and that's about the same time a reliable,quick charging, respectable looking and affordable electric car will be available to the public.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by noosacuda

My first and only electric car will be a mobility scooter! I wont need one for another 30+ years and that's about the same time a reliable,quick charging, respectable looking and affordable electric car will be available to the public.

...and even when it comes time for a mobility scooter, I've got a worked mid-sixties 125cc Vespa engine and 4-speed transmission unit sitting on a stand in the corner of my shed...that should fit nicely...fastest granddad on the block!

[dylby1]

Its also worth mentioning that the damage building a prius does to the environment by the time the batteries are made and shipped, and all the steel is mined and shipped etc etc. actually does more damage than a land rover would in its entire expected operating life

ill try to find the story i read that in for reference

EDIT: FOUND IT. Turns out its a hummer, not a land rover

PRIUS OUTDOES HUMMER IN ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE

The Toyota Prius, the flagship car for the environmentally conscious, is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America, and takes more combined energy to produce than a Hummer, says the Recorder.

Consider:
The nickel contained in the Prius' battery is mined and smelted at a plant in Ontario that has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the 'dead zone' around the plant to test moon rovers.
Dubbed the Superstack, the factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist's nightmare.
Acid rain around the area was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside, according to Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin.
After leaving the plant, the nickel travels to Europe, China, Japan and United States, a hardly environmentally sound round the world trip for a single battery.

But that isn't even the worst part, says the Record. According to a study by CNW Marketing, the total combined energy to produce a Prius (consisting of electrical, fuel, transportation, materials and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime), is greater than what it takes to produce a Hummer:
The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles -- the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles.
That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use almost 50 percent less combined energy doing it.

Source: Chris Demorro, "Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage," The Recorder, March 7, 2007.

[klawsterfobik]

If I could generate the electricity myself, ie. Solar I can't see why it wouldn't be a viable option me. As long as it wasn't super expensive, there would be nothing stopping me. I currently travel less than 50kms per day and the car sits in the drive way from 4:30pm until about 6:30am, on weekends most around trips that I do are under 200k.

I think the main thing with a Prius and alike is that the technology in them is relatively new for that application. They're not as effiecient to run, nor environmentally friendly to produce as a combustion engine powered car. I'm sure its all time though, the first "cars" were terribly inefficient means of transport. If it fit the bill the same as a petrol powered car, I'd probably go for the electric.

[Franco Cozzo]

All its power and torque the moment the electric motor starts spinning? Hell yeah, I'd buy that.

But not until you get something decent for $35K with a 500km minumum range, so maybe 10 years from now depending on how fast battery/capacitor technology advances and the take-up of electric cars.

[1TUFFUTE]

i like the cool tech ford developed for the electric focus they sell...it has its own cooling system for the batteries which lengthens the batteries life by 1million times haha. But seriously its good tech because heat is the biggest killer for electric car batteries....good thinking ford

[z80]

I would definitely buy it....in a heartbeat at $50k

No...I would probably buy two or more of them.

(a) it has a decent range
(b) I have 11kw of solar panels that could charge it in under 3 hours FREE
(d) It has outstanding performance and range.

Unfortunately it will be around $200k by the time it hits the shores in Aus.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by z80

Sound of the motor ?

Who cares about engine noise when this is standard equipment?

Model S comes equipped with 17" touchscreen, a 200-watt, seven-speaker stereo system with AM/FM and HD radio tuners .


Power?

0-100km/h in 5.6 seconds....


"Whatever"?

-480 km range on one charge

-Top speed 200km/h

30 minute fast charge available...a coffee and snack and you're away again.



So what else have you got to complain about in an electric car?

read this page...

http://www.teslamotors.com/models/features#/performance

IT's rear wheel drive too....
,

Originally Posted by z80

Unfortunately it will be around $200k by the time it hits the shores in Aus.

You've pretty much pointed it out for us...

[mik]

the electric car has it`s good points, but too many bad points, even if it was way cheaper i`d still buy a real car.

[Craney]

That is a beautiful car... all it needs is a five litre windsor.

[DJR-351]

Not in this lifetime......

[Polyal]

For a daily if I lived in a CBD and did a ~100km round trip...yeap Id do the maths on running costs and ownership and if it showed a saving id be all over it.

I dont understand peoples fear over these cars. Things like this will help us have our toys on the weekend.