Cop loses job for giving small fines

divine_afg · 25-11-2009, 01:32 PM

A VICTORIA Police sergeant has been sacked for using his discretion to give speeding drivers smaller fines than the law required him to do.

The officer is believed to have booked about 500 people over two years around Avondale Heights, in Melbourne's west.

He reduced the penalty for drivers through means such as increasing a zone's speed limit on a ticket.

If a motorist was caught driving 80km/h in a 60km/h speed zone, the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h so the driver would be fined less and receive one instead of three demerit points off his licence.

A police spokeswoman said the officer had been dismissed following an Ethical Standards Department investigation into allegations of misconduct and perverting the course of justice.

Victoria Police argue that Deputy Commissioner Ken Lay sacked the officer because he had not been honest about what he was doing.

"All police officers are entitled to use discretionary powers when handling speeding offences, whether that be through the issue of infringement notices, cautions or other form of lawful action," the spokeswoman said.

"However we expect that the exercise of this discretion must be transparent and open to scrutiny."

The officer is appealing his sacking at the police appeals board with the support of the Police Association.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 01:35 PM

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

Brazen · 25-11-2009, 01:47 PM

YellowFire he was using his discretion, next time an officer pulls you over for speeding and notices a tailight out will you demand that he give you a ticket for both infractions or would a warning on the taillight be more appropriate?

The police are there to enforce the law, which may mean using discretion or giving cautions. Reducing the vehicles speed may also be a way of giving the equipment a margin of error, the difference between one and three demerit points is sizable and by allowing a buffer it is fairer to the motorists. He also issued 500 tickets over two years which is a bloody lot, so not as if he wasnt doing his job.

It does not suprise me at all that this is happening in Victoria, absoloutely disgusting.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

YellowFire he was using his discretion, next time an officer pulls you over for speeding and notices a tailight out will you demand that he give you a ticket for both infractions or would a warning on the taillight be more appropriate?

Would I demand it? no. Would I accept it? yes. I recently got fined for something similar to your example and I took it on the chin. I'm not a fan of police only applying the law to certain people as they see fit. If the law is unfair it should be changed, not left to police to ignore or modify.

Brazen · 25-11-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

I'm not a fan of police only applying the law to certain people as they see fit. If the law is unfair it should be changed, not left to police to ignore or modify.

Incorrect, they are allowed discretion to ignore or modify it. It is quite common for a person committing numerous offences to be fined or charged with less. Many of the laws, guidelines and procedures have a preamble which explains the intent or the law. The intent may be to modify driver behaivour or improve road safety, in my opinion he is still enforcing the intent of the law. Of course discretion can be abused, but I think someone getting the sack for this particular issue is extreme.

For me it reflects the nanny-state culture permeating the state governments of this country for the last 10-15 years.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Incorrect, they are allowed discretion to ignore or modify it. It is quite common for a person committing numerous offences to be fined or charged with less.

"the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h"

He didn't use discretion. He issued tickets with falsified information.

BOSHOG · 25-11-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

agreed 100%

ive been given softer penalties before but never by raising the speed limit on the ticket, by saying i was doing less than i actually was. there is a difference, not to me really, but to his superiors.

flappist · 25-11-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

agreed 100%

ive been given softer penalties before but never by raising the speed limit on the ticket, by saying i was doing less than i actually was. there is a difference, not to me really, but to his superiors.

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

Isn't that what engineering reports are for? If your car is modified do it legally or keep it for the track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

I'm not aware of the law regarding confiscating cars for dirty windscreens or noise. Your local laws may differ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

Why not? It happens to me every time. No licence = stay off the road.

BOSHOG · 25-11-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

what are you getting at?

flappist · 25-11-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOSHOG

what are you getting at?

The various laws are normally interpreted to take into account all circumstances.

e.g. It is unlawful to have your number plate obscured from view. If you are driving on a muddy road there is a good chance that there will be mud on your number plates and headlights.
If the law must be always as per the text then you must be fined for this as your car is unroadworthy.

It is unlawful to have a dirty windscreen.
If you drive through a bug storm your windscreen will be dirty.
Again you should be fined for this as your car is unroadworthy

So if you are randomly pulled over for a breath test or license check, which happens not uncommonly and you have just passed through a bug storm or left a muddy road and you are stone cold sober and fully licensed under the "yellow fire" system you will be fined and your car deemed unroadworthy so you cannot even take it to the nearest servo to clean the bugs or mud off.

Luckily common sense is normally used by the police and the above does not happen, but the law says it should......

OLDFORDNUT · 29-11-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

So as soon as it is noticed that your car has been modded it should be put off the road until it can be confirmed to comply with all ADRs.

And if your modded car is found not to comply or is not roadworthy even by the smallest margin like dirty windscreen or lights or maybe 1db too loud or whatever it should be confiscated and towed at your expense.

EVERY TIME you are random breath tested or licensed checked.

Well that is the law..........

great post.
Do Gooders are the reason our country is almost a Police State that we all feared 20 years ago.
A Fair and reasonable copper gone and all other cops scared into submission.
do gooders beware what you wish for and try forcing down others throats, you will regret it when it effects you later at some time.

platinumXR · 29-11-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLDFORDNUT

do gooders beware what you wish for and try forcing down others throats, you will regret it when it effects you later at some time.

Correct, there needs to be a ballance maintained.

Bent8 · 25-11-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

The police are there to administer the law not make it up as they see fit.

Even if these laws infringe upon your personal freedoms and have absolutely no justification other than milking the population of their hard earned money?...

It's kinda sad when you think about it though, this cop was thinking with his heart and although I agree he went about it in the wrong way, the people he works for are criminals who have no interest in our safety or freedoms.....very very sad!

But then what would you do as the population explodes and the only way to maintain your monopoly of power and manipulation is to take away our freedom and dignity?

At the very least, it shows that not every law enforcement officer is in it for the power trip...

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent8

Even if these laws infringe upon your personal freedoms and have absolutely no justification other than milking the population of their hard earned money?...

Maybe if these unjust laws were enforced 100% of the time the population would wake up & vote out the clowns that keep making them?

Just a dream I have I guess.

MO · 25-11-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Fire

Maybe if these unjust laws were enforced 100% of the time the population would wake up & vote out the clowns that keep making them?

Just a dream I have I guess.

LOL vote them out mwuhahahaha,wake up if it makes money for any gov't it stays.I think its time to pull your head out of the sand and see the world for what it really is.

Yellow Fire · 25-11-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MO

LOL vote them out mwuhahahaha,wake up if it makes money for any gov't it stays.I think its time to pull your head out of the sand and see the world for what it really is.

...and this is why the system stays the same.

LowEL2XR8 · 25-11-2009, 02:07 PM

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.
Maybe he just should of cautioned them instead which is legal, instead of falsifying the ticket which is not.
He was doing the right thing but going the wrong way about it.

FalconXR6 · 25-11-2009, 02:12 PM

This now sets the standard.

Expect all traffic officers to issue accurate fines - no more figure fudging if you've got nice cleveage.

It's now game on moles.

Iggypoppin' · 25-11-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconXR6

It's now game on moles.

Not nessecary or needed.
I think what's happened here is he has used discretion- in the wrong context. As a police officer, you are allowed to choose to issue a ticket for infringements; it has happened to me. However, if you "use discretion" to decide whether to issue a fine or not, and you do, then the right to use discretion any further ceases. You must issue a ticket that matches the numbers on the radar gun and the corresponding speed limit. Whether he then issues additional infractions against your vehicle is again, up to discretion. Once he makes that decision however, he must follow the rules.

Wretched · 26-11-2009, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 76txcoupe

Not nessecary or needed.
I think what's happened here is he has used discretion- in the wrong context. As a police officer, you are allowed to choose to issue a ticket for infringements; it has happened to me. However, if you "use discretion" to decide whether to issue a fine or not, and you do, then the right to use discretion any further ceases. You must issue a ticket that matches the numbers on the radar gun and the corresponding speed limit. Whether he then issues additional infractions against your vehicle is again, up to discretion. Once he makes that decision however, he must follow the rules.

Bingo!

He had good intentions but went around it the wrong way.
Whether anyone likes it or not he broke the law, falsified a legal document (possible court evidence) and should be punished.

Iggypoppin' · 27-11-2009, 12:55 AM

We all make mistakes in life. Hopefully this police officer is re-instated and given a lesser penalty, and he can continue with his life.

Peter B - CV8 · 25-11-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.
Maybe he just should of cautioned them instead which is legal, instead of falsifying the ticket which is not.
He was doing the right thing but going the wrong way about it.

That's the way I see it as well. His heart was in the right place - but he shouldn't have fabricated the speed zone figure. Don't know why he just wouldn't mark down the offenders actual speed..... (unless these stat's are held somewhere & looked poor on his record/quota).

Riksta · 25-11-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

Don't know why he just wouldn't mark down the offenders actual speed..... (unless these stat's are held somewhere & looked poor on his record/quota).

I was done back in May by an Officer heading in the opposite direction on the highway, with a roof mount laser.

I asked him nicely if he could perhaps drop the recorded speed he got me at on the fine (cheaper/less demerits), he said if it was up to him he probably would as I wasn't giving him any attitude, but they get audited on what the recorded speed was on the system compared to the fine and stuff. Not sure how true it was, whether he was just making it up to keep the fine higher.

dom_105 · 25-11-2009, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Seems like he was trying to do his job but also help those people out at the same time.

We can't have any of that in the People's Republic of Brackistan

4Vman · 25-11-2009, 02:41 PM

Right idea executed in the wrong manner... tough love but he did the wrong thing.

outback_ute · 25-11-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by divine_afg

If a motorist was caught driving 80km/h in a 60km/h speed zone, the sergeant allegedly falsely increased the speed limit to 70km/h so the driver would be fined less and receive one instead of three demerit points off his licence.

I think the bold bit is where he went wrong - if he reduced the motorists speed that is what police are entitled to do as per their discretion. I must say it is a pretty heavy penalty however.

joolz · 27-11-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outback_ute

I think the bold bit is where he went wrong - if he reduced the motorists speed that is what police are entitled to do as per their discretion. I must say it is a pretty heavy penalty however.

I dont think they can reduce the speed detected as the readings are recorded.

MO · 27-11-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joolz

I dont think they can reduce the speed detected as the readings are recorded.

Depends on whether it was off his car speedo or a detector.

SB076 · 27-11-2009, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joolz

I dont think they can reduce the speed detected as the readings are recorded.

Good point and if he was using a detector (and the recordings are recorded) how can he show discretion? Only reason I ask is that on the news someone stated (forget who) that they encourage police officers to use their discretion, however in this instance the officer had provided falsified information. Makes you wonder how they could use discretion if the recordings are recorded and the zones are known technically they cant use any discretion.

Driving used to be so much more enjoyable, you used to be able to occasionally go a little over the limit without having to worry about getting a fine or having a photo taken. These days it seems the worse thing you could do on our roads is drive at 5 - 10k's over the limit.