re: lidar and speed certified report

[kyro_02]

Hi guys, I recently got pulled over detected: 129 alledged: 127, I admitted 120 - cause i'm not gonna lie to him, I also told him I believe my speed is incorrect

he asked me if I would like to see the reading,I said yes.. there it was, 129... but either it wasn't my car, or he calibration is incorrect, I admitted 120(worst case), but it doesn't even feel like I was going 120kmh.. I know I should have said "no comment" but anyways, I wanted to be honest, I was going a little over, but not by neckbeard breaking speed..

If I get a report, and it states my speedo is out by 5-10-15km or whatever, would this be satisfactory for them? and would the fine be adjusted?

[05_ENFORCER]

Nope, the speed detecting device is deemed as calibrated and therefore is admissible evidence.

You can dispute that evidence, that is your right.

Doesn't matter what you do to your speedo now, good for the next occurence though

(Go the Pies)


.

[kyro_02]

Originally Posted by 05_ENFORCER

Nope, the speed detecting device is deemed as calibrated and therefore is admissible evidence.

You can dispute that evidence, that is your right.

Doesn't matter what you do to your speedo now, good for the next occurence though

(Go the Pies)


.

The other option I can do is for an internal review, as my brother was detected at 130 many years ago and it was found the unit was not calibrated properly

cheers
nate

[flappist]

How big is your money bucket?

They will fight you until hell freezes over and should the evidence stack up so that there is no possible way for them to win they will withdraw leaving you with a probable 6 digit legal bill and no ruling that could be used against them in the future.

In Australia if you kill, rape or cause damage to private individuals or property they will chase you while there is a chance they might catch you at reasonable cost but if you steal for the Government or interfere with the revenue stream they will hunt you, your family and anyone you have ever met until the end of time........

[xisled]

Looks like you will have a holiday from driving for a month.

If you think you were not traveling at that speed, speak to a solicitor and work out the best option for you.

No point taking on the cops your self as you will not win.

[kyro_02]

Originally Posted by xisled

Looks like you will have a holiday from driving for a month.

No point taking on the cops your self as you will not win.

yeah, 1 month holiday... i hate the princess fwy, theres no way you can stay on it at 100kmh with a straight face..lol

like i said to the police officer, for the past 8 years I drive this section of road, and I will sit cruise on at 110-115, every day..

I just have my license as a convenience, so spending thousands defending myself to a system that is always right, isn't justifiable

he is from brunswick station, but was in werribee

now I need to hire a chauffeur

[Matty4]

First thing you did wrong was admit to speeding....even if it was a different speed to what they alleged. You yourself have just proven the offence, not them.....game over.....unfortunately for you.
Secondly, he showed you a number display on the rear of an electronic device, that is not proof of the offence. Did he clear the display from the last infringement issued?
You need to ask them to show where on the device that it was YOUR car speeding. They can't.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Matty4

First thing you did wrong was admit to speeding....even if it was a different speed to what they alleged. You yourself have just proven the offence, not them.....game over.....unfortunately for you.
Secondly, he showed you a number display on the rear of an electronic device, that is not proof of the offence. Did he clear the display from the last infringement issued?
You need to ask them to show where on the device that it was YOUR car speeding. They can't.

But in saying that, the officer does not even have to show you the reading, and you can be booked even if the officer refuses to show you.

[Matty4]

Of course they don't, but if they refuse then you have more grounds and arguments if (when) you take it to court as to the validity of the device.
Was the Officer hiding something?
Did he calibrate it correctly?
Is he/she authorised to test and certify the device?
Did it have a pattern approval?

Etc, etc,.....

[GasoLane]

If you take it to court you will need a solicitor and probably expert witnesses. One expert in speedo calibration and one in the field of the type of radar that Mr Plod was using.

You will also have to pay for these people to attend.

If you lose the case you will also have to pay for the Police expert witnesses. (which they WILL call)

Just cop it sweet and move on.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

If you take it to court you will need a solicitor and probably expert witnesses. One expert in speedo calibration and one in the field of the type of radar that Mr Plod was using.

You will also have to pay for these people to attend.

If you lose the case you will also have to pay for the Police expert witnesses. (which they WILL call)

Just cop it sweet and move on.

Exactly....It'll cost you more doing this than what the fine is actually worth. So unless you're prepared to throw money down the toilet, I'd be taking GASOLANE's advise...

[Kable72]

Only been done twice for speeding, both times I admitted and was as nice as I could be. Both times had the offence reduced cos "it was a nice change of pace not to be sworn at".

Just cop it with the fine. You're lucky your car didn't explode totaling several nearby childrens hospitals and a small dog.

[2011G6E]

Nope, no way out.

We all know that speed cameras and laser and radar measuring devices used by the police are the only measuring device of any sort in the world that gives an absolutely 100% accurate reading in all conditions at all times of the day or night in any environmental conditions you can think of.

Amazing devices! NASA and every scientific laboratory in the world who uses pesky plus or minus allowances from every device from a thermometer to an atomic clock could take a few tips from them...

And to think stupid scientists, when asked to measure the speed of something, would demand ridiculous things like a stable known environment with carefully controlled repeatable conditions and every know variable taken into account before they could give a reading, and even then the idiots would give you a speed with a plus or minus allowance...morons...all they need is a LIDAR detector from the police!


In all seriousness, "just cop it and carry on" is exactly what they rely on...the system is set up to be so costly to fight and with such a small chance of being found innocent that they count on people just paying up. Also, from ex-coppers I work with now, the usual tactic is, if called to court on such a fine challenge, to say something along the lines of "I observed the vehicle approaching me at a speed I estimated to be approximately 70kph in a 60kph zone...I then confirmed this with the radar gun, finding the car to be travelling at 72kph."

That way, you are standing there not questioning a soulless lump of technology...you're challenging the observational skills of a trained and qualified police officer who was merely using the technology to back up his keen observational skills...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Nope, no way out.

We all know that speed cameras and laser and radar measuring devices used by the police are the only measuring device of any sort in the world that gives an absolutely 100% accurate reading in all conditions at all times of the day or night in any environmental conditions you can think of.

Amazing devices! NASA and every scientific laboratory in the world who uses pesky plus or minus allowances from every device from a thermometer to an atomic clock could take a few tips from them...

And to think stupid scientists, when asked to measure the speed of something, would demand ridiculous things like a stable known environment with carefully controlled repeatable conditions and every know variable taken into account before they could give a reading, and even then the idiots would give you a speed with a plus or minus allowance...morons...all they need is a LIDAR detector from the police!


In all seriousness, "just cop it and carry on" is exactly what they rely on...the system is set up to be so costly to fight and with such a small chance of being found innocent that they count on people just paying up. Also, from ex-coppers I work with now, the usual tactic is, if called to court on such a fine challenge, to say something along the lines of "I observed the vehicle approaching me at a speed I estimated to be approximately 70kph in a 60kph zone...I then confirmed this with the radar gun, finding the car to be travelling at 72kph."

That way, you are standing there not questioning a soulless lump of technology...you're challenging the observational skills of a trained and qualified police officer who was merely using the technology to back up his keen observational skills...

you drag out this argument every time, but i'd hazard a guess that most people who get caught speeding by a hand held device, know they have been caught with their pants down. when the cop turns on his light, or steps out in the road with his arm up, (or whatever method he/she uses to get your attention) the first thing most would do is check their speed.

the OP admitted that he knew he was speeding. he admitted he speeds every day.

if you are prepared to take the risk, be prepared to pay the price.

[Agent86]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

If you feel like a day off work, take it to court, represent yourself, cop the fine anyway and learn something about the system. It is your right to be able to do this. When found guilty (inevitably) they cannot charge you any more than the fine itself at court, and may award costs against you (highly unlikely), but Vic Magistrate Court costs are about $50.00, which goes to charity anyway.

i can tell you there is one inaccuracy here.

The magistrate CAN charge you more than the on the spot penalty, up to the maximumperscribed in the traffic act ( or whatever it is called).

I recently was intercepted by a Task Force vehicle, which is thePC way of saying we target heavy vehicles to generate revenue.

During the course of discussions with the officers, their little book of fines came out and was shown to me.

There was an on the spot minimum, and the next column was maximum penalty.

That said, a magistrate is highly unlikely to go over the mimimum unles the situation is severe.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by Agent86

That said, a magistrate is highly unlikely to go over the mimimum unles the situation is severe.

They can also reduce the amount of the on-the-spot fine if you are still found guilty.
What they don't have discretion on is the holiday and the points you will receive.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by prydey

you drag out this argument every time, but i'd hazard a guess that most people who get caught speeding by a hand held device, know they have been caught with their pants down. when the cop turns on his light, or steps out in the road with his arm up, (or whatever method he/she uses to get your attention) the first thing most would do is check their speed.

the OP admitted that he knew he was speeding. he admitted he speeds every day.

if you are prepared to take the risk, be prepared to pay the price.

Yes I do drag it out every time. We have it drummed into us that radar and laser speed detection doesn't have an error in it, it's perfect, it's infallible. People don't realise that this simply can't be true of any measuring device, especially one operating in the constantly variable conditions a speed trap is, and there should be serious questions asked about true repeatable accuracy of the traps.
Many people, myself included, would have been stung by radar or got a picture in the post and just shrugged and decided that they must have been speeding, and pay up. I got one fine where I know for a damn fact I wasn't speeding ("140 meters from his position" I was actually still in my parking space and just pulling out onto the road...), contested it via a stat dec and detailed map and measurements, but still got a notice to pay up. Go to court? Why? To be told to pay up again?
People shrug and pay up because they assume that the lie they have been told that radar and laser is 100% accurate and can't make mistakes is actually the truth.

Speedo accuracy: some time back the police here in Queensland during one christmas blitz had it mentioned to them about the error allowed and the error in car speedos, and said the onus was on you to make sure your speedo is "calibrated correctly", and to "simply go and get it fixed".
The one time I asked about it at a VDO instrument shop, the guy was reluctant to give a quote as it could be a long involved job, but did say "The most I could estimate is to recommend that you should be sitting down when I told you the price though".

[prydey]

i think you are clutching at straws. its very cheap and hassle free to check a speedo via gps.

most auto workshops with a rolling road (dyno) can also check your speedo v road speed.

radar/lidar equipment is as accurate as it needs to be. most of the other equipment you always mentioned needs to be accurate to the 15th decimal place (for example). a speed detection device doesn't.

and for all the hype about 'zero tolerance', i don't know 1 single person, or read one single story, where a person has been done for 1km/h infringement.

[Ducati888]

You don't need a solicitor or witnesses (what witnesses?). The onus is on the cops to prove guilt, not on you to prove innocence.

That said, you can't get off them. Even if they are not telling the truth, the magistrate will give a sworn officer of the law the benefit of the doubt every time against a member of the public.

If the police prosecutor finds that you actually may have a point in law, and could get off, they will negotiate with you outside of court, get you to plead guilty and not record a penalty against you. They do that often, so that they don't set precedents in court before a magistrate that others could use. People take the offer, because it's easier, cheaper and gets them off (the fine).

If you feel like a day off work, take it to court, represent yourself, cop the fine anyway and learn something about the system. It is your right to be able to do this. When found guilty (inevitably) they cannot charge you any more than the fine itself at court, and may award costs against you (highly unlikely), but Vic Magistrate Court costs are about $50.00, which goes to charity anyway.

You get a day off work, you get to waste their time, you get to observe others in the court room and how they operate, you get something for your money.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

You don't need a solicitor or witnesses (what witnesses?). The onus is on the cops to prove guilt, not on you to prove innocence.

That said, you can't get off them. Even if they are not telling the truth, the magistrate will give a sworn officer of the law the benefit of the doubt every time against a member of the public.

If the police prosecutor finds that you actually may have a point in law, and could get off, they will negotiate with you outside of court, get you to plead guilty and not record a penalty against you. They do that often, so that they don't set precedents in court before a magistrate that others could use. People take the offer, because it's easier, cheaper and gets them off (the fine).

If you feel like a day off work, take it to court, represent yourself, cop the fine anyway and learn something about the system. It is your right to be able to do this. When found guilty (inevitably) they cannot charge you any more than the fine itself at court, and may award costs against you (highly unlikely), but Vic Magistrate Court costs are about $50.00, which goes to charity anyway.

You get a day off work, you get to waste their time, you get to observe others in the court room and how they operate, you get something for your money.

I take it that you say all this from your own experience?

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

I take it that you say all this from your own experience?

Yes, that is correct GasOLane.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ducati888

You don't need a solicitor or witnesses (what witnesses?). The onus is on the cops to prove guilt, not on you to prove innocence.

That said, you can't get off them. Even if they are not telling the truth, the magistrate will give a sworn officer of the law the benefit of the doubt every time against a member of the public.

If the police prosecutor finds that you actually may have a point in law, and could get off, they will negotiate with you outside of court, get you to plead guilty and not record a penalty against you. They do that often, so that they don't set precedents in court before a magistrate that others could use. People take the offer, because it's easier, cheaper and gets them off (the fine).

If you feel like a day off work, take it to court, represent yourself, cop the fine anyway and learn something about the system. It is your right to be able to do this. When found guilty (inevitably) they cannot charge you any more than the fine itself at court, and may award costs against you (highly unlikely), but Vic Magistrate Court costs are about $50.00, which goes to charity anyway.

You get a day off work, you get to waste their time, you get to observe others in the court room and how they operate, you get something for your money.

You don't need a gun in a gun fight, a knife will do if you know you can't win.

Of course should you suddenly find you may have a chance to win remember that you have still taken a knife to a gun fight.......

[2011G6E]

Wrong...all you get is a day off work alright...but you get "we're right, you're wrong, pay the fine...plus costs".

Speeding tickets are just about the only area of the law where you are absolutely positively guilty until you can somehow prove yourself innocent. Even a murderer with firm DNA evidence against him and a bloody knife in his hand standing over a body has more of a presumption of innocence when compared to Average Joe Motorist who's been caught going 10kph over the limit on an empty road...

[Ducati888]

Are you saying that you would learn nothing from the experience of going to court?

[Ducati888]

Also, as I stated earlier, it's highly unlikely they would make you pay costs if you lose. This happens only very rarely in magistrates court and often only if the accused is obstinate, difficult and disrespectful.

I have been twice and never paid costs. It is your right to contest, and they are paid to be there. Its paid for already whether you choose to go or not.

Your choice.

[Ducati888]

Do you speak from experience? I do.

It cost you nothing to go to court. It is your constitutional right. thats why court is there in the first place. The police will not have "witnesses" present on standby.

Seriously. Go and have a look for yourself. Its free entry and open to the public.

Or else just sit back, cop it sweet and let the system own you, as has been suggested here by others.

Your choice. You could do some research as well. Google is your friend.

[Matty4]

Ducati888 is on the money.
First time I contested I hired a solicitor. I could have done a better job than he did.

Since then I have represented myself.
You don't need to have witnesses, the police will not have "expert" witnesses sitting there ready to go, it will be you, the officer who wrote the ticket and the police prosecutor in front of the Magistrate.

Arm yourself with as much info as possible, even down to the details of the conversation had with the officer at the time. Then compare that to the brief of evidence tendered to court (you'll have this well before time to study it)

the ones I have were littered with inaccuracies, typos and just plain wrong details.
If they can't even type up a statement correctly, how the hell can they operate a radar accurately and within accordance with the instructions and guidelines set down by the police and the manufacturer.

Contest it and make sure it is a learning experience for the future.
You could do a lot worse by having a look here.
www.aussiespeedingfines.com

[kyro_02]

Cheers for all the replies,

I am just going to cop it sweet this time due to some facts I stated earlier regarding admitting to an offence. You can only be honest for so long, if there is a next time that I'm pulled up I will not be making any comment to the officer, and I will take it to court

cheers for the advice,
and when you think about it, half the system is screwed.
lenient sentences for killers, rapists, theives..etc
but just don't get caught out on the road, or they'll come down hard on you...

[Ducati888]

"Admitting to the offence" means nothing. You can't waive your rights verbally or by signing them away, in spite of what so many think.

[zilo]

I have always represented myself....(4 times)

3 times I was discharged without penalty.

I simply stated that i was periodically checking my speedo which I admit was not accurate, but whithin the manufacturers specs, and that at the time of the offence I admit i was speeding...but not as alleged.

On all ocassions I pleaded guilty...but not as alleged.

That is what you would need to do since they entrapped you with the standard roadside questions...

However....

On one ocassion I had the book thrown at me becuase I carelessly pleaded innocent...yet at the roadside I admitted to being over the limit.

The magistrate heard that the police officer was not trained properly in the use of the device
That the officer did not have his glasses on that night.
That it was dark, raining and other vehicles in the field of view.

The magistrate let me go on and on and on.

I thought it was in the bag...

He asked me to stand and asked me to give him a reason why he shouldn't take my licence for a year ???


He said I already admitted guilt and that I should read up about the law before wasting his time......

Bang...original fine, 300 court costs, 4 demerit points.


I haven't speeded for ages since getting my get out of jail free card....

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11391412