351 vs 360 vs 350

[knighty01]

i'm going to throw this in some other forums just for a laugh, to see if we can decipher an educated overall leader here.. should be interesting results going from a mopar forum to a chev to a ford lol



so who found what to be a more useable engine, who got better EASY horsepower out of what? and why you would pick it.??



but heres the thing, i don't want to just hear the usual v8 supercar banter about someones mill being the greatest, i want to know why??



Cheers.

Knighty

[Ridin-High]

Originally Posted by knighty01

i'm going to throw this in some other forums just for a laugh, to see if we can decipher an educated overall leader here.. should be interesting results going from a mopar forum to a chev to a ford lol



so who found what to be a more useable engine, who got better EASY horsepower out of what? and why you would pick it.??



but heres the thing, i don't want to just hear the usual v8 supercar banter about someones mill being the greatest, i want to know why??



Cheers.

Knighty

350 chev would win easily, has a massive aftermarket in the US

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Ridin-High

350 chev would win easily, has a massive aftermarket in the US

What evidence is that statement based on ?


If we are talking aftermarket try this for size:

The annual Engine masters competition in the U.S is dominated by Ford.
Windsor blocks with Clevo heads. (new Clevo block has just hit the market.)

2002: Runner up
2004: 1st and 5th
2006: 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th.

And my money is on Ford to win this year too.

Against stiff competition from:

Chev
Mopar
Buick
Oldsmobile
Pontiac

Ford came out on top.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en...challenge/2006/

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/en...sters/articles/


Final results here

[|||]

the 360 because bigger numbers = better skids

[Allen]

Who cares? Im not going to put a chev of mopar engine in any Ford, so why would I ever think about which is a better more reliable engine?

If your that concerned about it, start with a Dart or World block ;)

[mcnews]

360 as it has by far the strongest bottom end and easy power for cheap $. Has very long stroke which makes for good torque. Track down the rockers from a 273 as they are ductile iron adjustable that are very strong which saves you lots of $ on aftermarket rockers. Standard heads have plenty of meat to hack in to in order to get good flow. Only real drama is getting good off the shelf headers that seal to the head well and clear our right hand drive layout in some cars. 360 engines complete are a dime a dozen and widely available and generally have a decent magnetic trigger electronic ignition set-up on them as far back as the late sixties which is another area dollars can be saved.

If you have an unlimited cheque book and just want to go in a shop and spend lots of money on all the name brand bits then for sure Chevs might be easier. There is nearly as much aftermarket stuff available for 360 Chrysler series small blocks also out of the states of course.

If you want to go auto then Chrysler's 727 Torqueflite is a well regarded transmission and these days can be upgraded to four speed I believe.

[T3man]

Originally Posted by knighty01

but heres the thing, i don't want to just hear the usual v8 supercar banter about someones mill being the greatest, i want to know why??



Cheers.

Knighty

jeez, you don't want much do ya?

[fou_bleu]

351's are bullet-proof! Come'on!!!!!!!!!!!!

[4Vman]

Extremely difficult question and complex topic, and will depend on application etc.. but "generally speaking"...

350 Chev: Avaliable from the factory in many different configurations, 2 bolt, 4 bolt, low compression, high compression, 2 barrel, 4 barrel etc.. depending on combo they made good power, has limited potential in 2 bolt form, the 4 bolt 010 block was stronger, "fuely" heads were the best early factory chev head. Has the worlds biggest aftermarket support, virtually anything is possible "aftermarket".

351C: Similar to the 350 chev in that different head and carbs were offered, 2 bolt and 4 bolt were offered but the 2 bolt is the same block minus the 2 extra bolts and is almost identical in strength. 4V big port heads had enourmous power potential out of the box and as a result the 4V BOSS 351 was the most powerful small block engine ever factory made. 351C has by far the beefiest bottom end and crank out of the 3.
See a 350 chev beside a 351C upside down and its chalk and cheese, the 350 looks realitively weak and less rigid.

360 Chrysler: suspect really, from memory it was designed more as a light truck engine, strange bore stroke relationship, not a performance engine.. but there is a limited supply of stuff for them. nuf said.

[burnz]

basicly what 4v said
as for the other coment about gearbox's
love the 727 "torque/power flite" but still can't go past the 2speed (power glide)

[nugget378]

Just look at where power is made,in the cylinder head there is no contest at all,clevo first daylight second...
Clevo big port heads are best compared to big block heads,if you want to find anything comparable that is...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Just look at where power is made,in the cylinder head there is no contest at all,clevo first daylight second...
Clevo big port heads are best compared to big block heads,if you want to find anything comparable that is...

Yep, from a power perspective the short motor is just a pump, the heads control the amount of potential power, and on that front the 4V heads are a stand alone winner.

[1TUFFUTE]

my limited knowledge tells me that the chev is crap, the mopar is god, but the 351 is untouchable. Those americans now what to do with em, but those comps mean they are spendind alot off money. Probably not in line with what your asking right...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

my limited knowledge tells me that the chev is crap, the mopar is god, but the 351 is untouchable. Those americans now what to do with em, but those comps mean they are spendind alot off money. Probably not in line with what your asking right...

Limited knowledge is a dangerous thing...im Blue blooded, but the 350 Chev is a venerable motor, with countless motorsport runs on the board.. but ultimately the 4V bigport Cleveland is a better factory "hot up" prospect, none the less respect needs to be paid to the chev, regardless of brand loyalty..

The only decent mopar products were Hemi V8's.. which were awesome.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Limited knowledge is a dangerous thing...im Blue blooded, but the 350 Chev is a venerable motor, with countless motorsport runs on the board.. but ultimately the 4V bigport Cleveland is a better factory "hot up" prospect, none the less respect needs to be paid to the chev, regardless of brand loyalty..

The only decent mopar products were Hemi V8's.. which were awesome.

Agreed, there are some dam tough Chev's around.
Mopars ? i like the 440 !

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Agreed, there are some dam tough Chev's around.
Mopars ? i like the 440 !

Yep, i hate to admit it but the small block chev is a damn good engine, BUT.. mostly because of what the aftermarket has done for it, not so much what can be achieved with factory made parts.
If we're talking STRICTLY "factory" here the bigport clevo is a standout amongst the small block world.

Honerable mention to the 426 Hemi for factory stakes though, along with the Ford 427 "hemi" SOHC, and Chev LS7 454.

[GTPete]

Wasnt the 340 the weapon of choice for the chrysler fans.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by GTPete

Wasnt the 340 the weapon of choice for the chrysler fans.

Not just Mopar fans. This was just about unbeatable on the track....just ask Richard Petty.

As a Mopar man from way back, and somebody who is eagerly awaiting the 2008 Challenger (if we get it here), I like the 360. At the same time I have had a couple of nasty 351 Clevos, so it's a tough choice as each has it's good points. The Clevo revs better, but if you can pull more torque at lower revs then why not.

Really it comes down to make of vehicle, for engine choice. Personally though the 340 is a better proposition than either of them if it is going into a Chrysler product.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Quasi

Not just Mopar fans. This was just about unbeatable on the track....just ask Richard Petty.

.

now now.... lets not get too carried away... dont forget NASCAR banned the 4V HEAD because it was too dominant.. and they also banned a few other alloy versions too..

[CAMS290]

Originally Posted by GTPete

Wasnt the 340 the weapon of choice for the chrysler fans.

Certainly was, a great motor that was strangled here in the E55

[Walkinshaw]

It would be fantatsic to see the links to where you have asked the same question on chev/mopar sites?

Chev 350 is the mainstay of pushrod v8's. Huge aftermarket support and as mentioned above no failure of runs on the board. (early 2bolt 2bbl units right though to the LT1 32valve beast)

Mopar 360...as mentioned above I would have expected to see a 351/350/340 comparison not 360....

351c. 4V cantered heads, 270-300cfm stock. end of story.

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by knighty01

i'm going to throw this in some other forums just for a laugh, to see if we can decipher an educated overall leader here.. should be interesting results going from a mopar forum to a chev to a ford lol

Be carefull Knighty, educated and forum shouldn't be used in the same paragraph.

[RACE38]

Hi Lads,
While putting my MOPAR hat back on, the MOPAR 360 is the winner hands down, no if's no but's...

They get some serious HP outta the mighty MOPAR in the USA and Canada, and the reason is MOPAR stuff is layed on over there.
Where as "ANY" media on the Big 3 here was so lop sided it wasn't funny.

They never compared apples with apples, and thus the Motoring Media gave the readers their opinion and it was deemed fact. WRONG

They always compared a 351 & at that point a 308 or a 350 that were packing a 4BBl carb and free flowing exhaust where the 360 & the 318 was packing a wheezy 2BBL and an exhaust system about the same diameter as your "NUDGER".

MOPAR was always behind the 8 ball, even with the fact that the E55 340 was gonna be raced at Bathurst as the next giant killer to the E38 & E49 R/T Charger. Again a Myth!
The E55 "WAS NEVER" gonna be a Bathurst Race Car, and I can back myself up here as I was the Owner/Editor of Australia's most successful Mopar Magazine.

Even the tuff as teak 340 was crippled by a 318 cam shaft, and a Torque Flite auto, no manual was avaliable.

Put simply a 340 or a 360 is easy to get good grunt out of!

I agree the 351 is a TRUE performer, the Chev is simply everywhere and go fast goodies are availble EVERYWHERE from Real Estate Agents to general Lolly Shops!
Ya can shove ya Chev's! A good bit of chain and a Chev will give you a great mooring for ya boat if ya use enough concrete.

[Racecraft]

from an average punter that heads to the drags each week, I'll take the question to mean what is best for me: What would I build if I wanted a fast 'budget' (ie 20k) or less combo.
1. 350 Chev, plethora of bits and a huge wealth of runs on the board
2. Clevo but not in 351 form would be the new benchmark but 15k for 650hp + driveline to match would blow my 20k budget.
3. I have seen a few mean 360's but as my knowledge of the Chrysler is as limited to calling it a Valiant I'd not throw my coin at it wihout alot more background research.

[Quasi]

Don't make me laugh.

Why do you think Chrysler pulled out of racing in the USA? The political wrangling and rule changes in Trans Am and NASCAR during the 70s, designed to stop Mopar products from winning, are legendary.

In fact Petty was so dominant, it was believed he was running a big block, as he had in years past, when in fact it was a 340.

[schnoods]

360 for sure. Just not the ones we got over here.

The one in my CL has a crappy 2 barrel 500 holley (standard fitment), single pea shooter exhaust (standard again) and apparently a torquey camshaft more suited to towing / low revs than power and revs.

But a have had the priveledge to ride shotgun in a Plymouth Duster 360 and boy did it fly.

[ozrunner]

Why do you think Chrysler pulled out of racing in the USA? The political wrangling and rule changes in Trans Am and NASCAR during the 70s, designed to stop Mopar products from winning, are legendary.

Dunno about that as the 351C was definitly eventually banned from NASCAR.

Also banned from NHRA Pro Stock drag racing which most would have thought was the province of the 350 Chev. Wrong !!!!

Ask Bob Glidden . He eventually retired and one of his comments on retirement was the 351C was the most penalised engine of all time.

Every time he won they added more weight.

"Until John Force surpassed him in 2001, Bob Glidden owned more NHRA national event victories than any other racer in the history of the sport. Bob grabbed 111 points in our contest, and almost certainly would have finished higher had he not retired in 1995. At times in the 1980s, Glidden had his fellow Pro Stock competitors covered by a tenth, even when SHUTTING OFF his Fairmont so he wouldn't adversely affect the weight breaks assigned to his dominant 351 Cleveland Ford."

Game Over

.

[northey]

Bob Glidden was an unfair advantage.
I was one of his biggest fans but until Bill Jenkins and then his next driver (can't remember his name) stopped for a while Glidden never had it all his own way. He was also known as Mad Dog as he used to work 20 hrs per day for 7 days a week. Christmas Day he'd work in the shed, have dinner and then back to the shed.
One of his competitors said "Glidden could make a refrigerator competitive in Pro Stock". When he left Ford (was dumped) he went to Plymouth and won in them too. Straight away.
A great great drag racer.

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by northey

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

Yes they use 3V's,and they are totally within the rules,just because they are alloy dont mean they are something exotic.
The chevs dont compete as they have to use there "factory type" alloys as well,have a look at a 3v up close,its just an alloy 4V type head with a little different port location and size...
Have a read of this years EM rules here...

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng.../0701em_rules/



CYLINDER HEADS
Any domestic OEM passenger car or commercially available aftermarket OEM replacement, 2-valve per cylinder, cylinder heads that meet all other rules are acceptable. Raised runner heads as defined by a cylinder head requiring spacer plates or that is not compatible with the OE-width intake manifold for the engine type, are prohibited. Purpose-built racing heads such as; GM DRCE, Dart Big Chief and other similar racing heads are not allowed. Multiple spark plugs per cylinder and/or overhead camshafts are not allowed.

Contestants will be required to inform the rules committee of their cylinder head type for approval no later than July 15, 2007.

"Domestic OEM passenger car" and "aftermarket OEM replacement" cylinder heads must retain compatibility with unmodified OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds. Slotting of intake manifold bolt-holes to attain alignment is not allowed. Aftermarket cylinder heads that maintain compatibility with OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds are not allowed if the aftermarket manufacturer has altered the valve angles from the original OEM design. Valves must retain OEM valve angles (+ or -1 degree). Cylinder head decks may be milled as long as the milling does not affect the valve angle more than the 1-degree variance allowed by the rules.

Any valve seat size and/or valve size is acceptable. Any commercially available stainless steel valve is acceptable. Titanium valves and/or springs are not allowed.

Unlimited porting, polishing, welding, and/or filling the inside of the intake and/or exhaust ports is acceptable. Modifications to the exterior surfaces of the intake and/or exhaust ports, such as welding and/or adding additional material to increase port size or to alter the port design, is not allowed. Welding inside the combustion chamber to alter the chamber design and/or the placement of the valves or sparkplug is prohibited. The exterior surfaces of the ports, which include the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating flanges, must remain "as-cast" by the manufacturer and cannot be altered in any way. Fastener holes on the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating surfaces must remain as manufactured and cannot be altered in any way. Flange adapters that connect the exhaust ports to the header are not allowed. MOPAR W-2 small block intake and exhaust bolt patterns are allowed.
CHEVROLET Big Block 24-degree cylinder heads are allowed.
FORD MOTORSPORTS Big Block Cobrajet and Super Cobrajet heads are allowed

[gs1973]

Originally Posted by northey

Bob Glidden was an unfair advantage.
I was one of his biggest fans but until Bill Jenkins and then his next driver (can't remember his name) stopped for a while Glidden never had it all his own way. He was also known as Mad Dog as he used to work 20 hrs per day for 7 days a week. Christmas Day he'd work in the shed, have dinner and then back to the shed.
One of his competitors said "Glidden could make a refrigerator competitive in Pro Stock". When he left Ford (was dumped) he went to Plymouth and won in them too. Straight away.
A great great drag racer.

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

Yeah but on the same token don't you think G.M is advantaged? Considering that they have more than twice the followers and racers mean's there development cost's are halved and the chances of one of them getting one cracking are higher.. G.M have nothing but the aftermarket to thank for there ability to run with a top flight Clevo's.Because if you compare there factory head options they're Shite.