Why do Australian police keep cars for such a short time?

MrZ · 29-06-2015, 04:26 AM

I've noticed that there are hardly any police cars over 3 years old in Australia. In the USA, the average age is more like 10 years, with some cars even exceeding 15 years of age (though this is rare).

If you buy a brand-new cop car and sell it within a few years, you're losing an enormous amount of money, versus keeping that car for 10 years or so.

What's the logic here?

**aussiblue** · 29-06-2015, 05:41 AM

Quote:

In the USA, the average age is more like 10 years, with some cars even exceeding 15 years of age (though this is rare).

Not always so see: http://www.government-fleet.com/arti...-agencies.aspx . But sometimes so see: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commu...-cars-9747.ece

So the real reason is probably that in North America many police vehicles are funded by municipalities rather than States and the simply don't have the required tax base and funding to turn over their fleets as often as they would like or should. It used to be like this in the old days at least in WA when shires employed the speed cops. They also have special Police vehicles (used to be Crown Vics) that don't change much fro year to year so the cars may not be as old as they look.

If it's like WA most police vehicles in Australia are probably leased through a large fleet management company and the related contracts impose maximum age and mileage replacement conditions. And as the first article notes, keeping old vehicles ultimately hurts your bottom line (you are not really saving money) as well as creating OHS issues. Note also that in Oz State agencies and their leasing fleet management companies get the savings of bulk buying under contract and no State fees/taxes or GST. The price difference used to be such that you could often sell a used Government vehicle for more than its replacement cost so there was even more incentive to turn them over every few years. So in a nutshell you (and/or the fleet management company) lose money if you keep on old cars on the fleet and the lease contracts have maximum age and mileage conditions.

MrZ · 29-06-2015, 04:47 PM

But even if the car itself is leased, you still have to add the cost of fitting the car out with police equipment. This would not be cheap. Having to fit out a car once every 10 years would be more cost effective than having to do it every 3 years, surely?? And what's the advantage of leasing over purchasing?

foxtrot3 · 29-06-2015, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrZ

But even if the car itself is leased, you still have to add the cost of fitting the car out with police equipment. This would not be cheap. Having to fit out a car once every 10 years would be more cost effective than having to do it every 3 years, surely?? And what's the advantage of leasing over purchasing?

Hi. The changes in police technology and communications equipment means it all needs to be changed in a 3 or 4 year period anyway. Cheers MD

LTDHO · 29-06-2015, 05:46 AM

If you thrashed a car from new, would you want it more than 3 years?

**russellw** · 29-06-2015, 05:47 AM

The logic is quite simple. The purchase price is ridiculously low for the major fleets and most of them have 3 year or 50,000 km turnover as this is deemed to be the sweet spot between maintenance costs and resale values.

Cheers
Russ

**aussiblue** · 29-06-2015, 05:51 AM

.. and hey Government car purchases was what helped keep the Oz motor industry going up to recently.

**Cav** · 29-06-2015, 07:33 AM

If we can't buy a car at fleet pricing, are we being fleeced?

danzvtil · 29-06-2015, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cav

If we can't buy a car at fleet pricing, are we being fleeced?

Go out and buy 100 cars, and tell me how you go on pricing. Are you suggesting bulk buyers shouldn't get discount?

**Elks** · 29-06-2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Go out and buy 100 cars, and tell me how you go on pricing. Are you suggesting bulk buyers shouldn't get discount?

This. I recently had a conversation with a customer about financing trucks and the same rules applied. He wanted a deal he had heard another fleet got. He buys 2 to maybe 4 trucks per annum. The other guy buys 100 ish per annum. And had just ordered 36. My answer was simple. Sure give me an order for 36 and I'll go and get you that pricing. Oh you only want 2. Let's start this again.

The Monty · 29-06-2015, 05:46 PM

Its mostly reused between cars.

Express · 29-06-2015, 06:35 PM

Many years ago I used to purchase them at very low tender prices for Local Council’s with the advantage of no government charges.

You kept them for 40,000k then traded them at market price for more than you paid for them.

I know it's not quite the same today as I understand there is now some government charges but the same basic principles still apply, the only difference is that the fat in the change over isn’t as good.

Let them get too old and you lose more and more as their second value decreases.

Trevor 57 · 01-07-2015, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Express

Many years ago I used to purchase them at very low tender prices for Local Council’s with the advantage of no government charges.

You kept them for 40,000k then traded them at market price for more than you paid for them.

I know it's not quite the same today as I understand there is now some government charges but the same basic principles still apply, the only difference is that the fat in the change over isn’t as good.

Let them get too old and you lose more and more as their second value decreases.

no fat anymore, rules changed pre-2000, I was involved in part of the process

**Jastel** · 29-06-2015, 08:28 PM

You are reading a board that is made up of 75% people having problems with Fords and you want to know why cops trade in cars??
(Applies to all models but)
A new mechanical thing is more reliable than an old thing, basically.
And when you pay no taxes on it and can sell it at a profit and upgrade its a no brainer.

Also unions and safety standards influence decisions as well.

**Elks** · 29-06-2015, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jastel

You are reading a board that is made up of 75% people having problems with Fords and you want to know why cops trade in cars??.

But logically, being that this Forum is full of Ford owners they aren't likely to have a problem with a Jeep. They will have an issue with the car they own. Not one they don't. If you own an XR6 you won't have a problem with a Camry.

All cars have issues. Go on the Jeep forums, VW forums, LS1, OZ Benz. They're all full of people trying to find their way through the maze of quality vs reliability vs low cost or no cost.

Police departments change over all their cars Ford Holden Subaru Toyota. Like all fleets do because that's the most cost effective way to do it.

**Jastel** · 30-06-2015, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elks

But logically, being that this Forum is full of Ford owners they aren't likely to have a problem with a Jeep. They will have an issue with the car they own. Not one they don't. If you own an XR6 you won't have a problem with a Camry.

All cars have issues. Go on the Jeep forums, VW forums, LS1, OZ Benz. They're all full of people trying to find their way through the maze of quality vs reliability vs low cost or no cost.

Police departments change over all their cars Ford Holden Subaru Toyota. Like all fleets do because that's the most cost effective way to do it.

That's exactly what I said??
The multiple problems that you read about on forums regarding older cars of any type have means get rid of them as soon as allowed to. I doubt you would find any cop or worker who doesn't pay for the car saying "NO Boss, save your money, I want to keep my BA, there's another 200000kms in it yet".

I have bought dozens of ex cop cars for taxis, they have no more problems that any other car IMHO. The interiors are a bit rougher sometimes.
You cant flog a car and damage it anymore, its not 1970 or even 1990, the computer wont allow you to. You CAN drive it into kerbs, speed bumps and other objects and damage it THAT way, but sometimes for Police it may be necessary.

You are paying around half new price for a secondhand car, that generally has been better looked after than many private ones.

jaydee · 29-06-2015, 09:07 PM

Often they can sell them for more than what they paid because they have been well maintained.
Also, even though they maybe 3 years old, the kays are up around the 100,000 mark.
I know the Police cars from the Eucla area on the WA SA border are disposed of after about9-12 months in some cases due to high mileage.

XR5 · 29-06-2015, 10:11 PM

As far as NSW goes (don't know about the other states) we (HWP) had leases on the cars based roughly on what kilometres the car was expected to do. Country cars would have shorter leases due to higher kilometres travelled sooner whereas metro cars would have a longer lease due to same amount of kilometres taking longer to accumulate. I got out 5 years ago but back then the average lease for a country car was anywhere from 9 to 15 months and a city car was anywhere from 12 months to 3 years.

As far as cost of fit out it was all done in house by Police fleet services and equipment was reused upon return in another vehicle. This included all the radar equipment, mobile data terminals, auto number plate recognition, police radio, UHF if fitted, calibrated speedo etc.

As we were HWP we only used SS Commodores and XR6 Turbo's (we stopped purchasing XR8's back in the BA model days as they had a tendency to stall for some reason when trying to do quick turns and neither ourselves or Ford could work out why. The turbo's didn't do this but man could we get them to glow red hot).

As far as GD's went they generally used to run only falcon or commodore sedans but as the bean counters moved in more and more at fleet services who organise the leasing you started to see more 4 cylinder cars like Camry and such popping up. This will only get worse and worse for the poor old GD's. The bean counters wanted to put us all in SV6's but were told they were not allowed to touch us so we kept the V8's and turbo 6's.

They especially hated the fact that they had to pay a bit extra for the XR6 turbo's because they were running the Brembo brakes and wheels from the FPV's on them. The standard brakes failed our requirements so Ford fitted all vehicles delivered to us with the brembo's and wheels to match from the FG onwards. So if you ever come across a FG XR6 turbo running factory fitted Brembo's odds are it is ex NSW HWP.

Cheers

BA Supa Pursuit · 30-06-2015, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR5

As far as NSW goes (don't know about the other states) we (HWP) had leases on the cars based roughly on what kilometres the car was expected to do. Country cars would have shorter leases due to higher kilometres travelled sooner whereas metro cars would have a longer lease due to same amount of kilometres taking longer to accumulate. I got out 5 years ago but back then the average lease for a country car was anywhere from 9 to 15 months and a city car was anywhere from 12 months to 3 years.

As far as cost of fit out it was all done in house by Police fleet services and equipment was reused upon return in another vehicle. This included all the radar equipment, mobile data terminals, auto number plate recognition, police radio, UHF if fitted, calibrated speedo etc.

As we were HWP we only used SS Commodores and XR6 Turbo's (we stopped purchasing XR8's back in the BA model days as they had a tendency to stall for some reason when trying to do quick turns and neither ourselves or Ford could work out why. The turbo's didn't do this but man could we get them to glow red hot).

As far as GD's went they generally used to run only falcon or commodore sedans but as the bean counters moved in more and more at fleet services who organise the leasing you started to see more 4 cylinder cars like Camry and such popping up. This will only get worse and worse for the poor old GD's. The bean counters wanted to put us all in SV6's but were told they were not allowed to touch us so we kept the V8's and turbo 6's.

They especially hated the fact that they had to pay a bit extra for the XR6 turbo's because they were running the Brembo brakes and wheels from the FPV's on them. The standard brakes failed our requirements so Ford fitted all vehicles delivered to us with the brembo's and wheels to match from the FG onwards. So if you ever come across a FG XR6 turbo running factory fitted Brembo's odds are it is ex NSW HWP.

Cheers

Exactly ^^^^^

In nsw at the moment it's going on max Kms of 80000 or three years whatever comes first. As you rightly stated country hwp cars are going back anything from say 9 months to 15 months, some city cars do the entire 3 years.

I'm not bias toward any brand but the Holden's put up with this type of work much better. Yes they feel slower, the brake package is average at best, but they take the abuse without failure, and handle much better at speed. Plus the interior is a nicer place to be.

It is nice to get into a turbo every now and then, the power and brembo brake package is impressive to say the least. But the handling and interior let the car down IMO. There seems to be a re-occurring problem with the mk 2 fg's, in relation to heater cores. Ford say that it's because of all the sitting around at idle. Apparently according to one of our local ford mechanics the heater core or piping is in a slightly different location than on the fg mk 1. When the core goes the car is gone to ford for at least a week or two. The hint that it's about to happen is the coolant smell in the cabin. It's not uncommon for more than one failure in the 80000kms.

We had an f6 on loan for a while. Nice car to say the least but less suited to (IMO) to police work. Yes suspension and handling was better, but wheels were too soft and big, and the power delivery with the bigger turbo was a bit late and laggy compared with the xr6t.

Nsw currently have a srt8 core being evaluated. This will proabably be the only real alternative once the falcons and commodores cease. The gear that needs to be carried only just (with a tight squeeze) fits into the current cars. There has been additional equipment added recently in the way of fire protection kits.

I haven't driven the core but from what I'm told its a great package, but the traction control will need adjustment for police work.

Back to the theme of the post, I can tell you that by the end of a lease a hwy car really starts to feel tired. They are worked hard. Having said that I recently drove one that was about to go back that had been assigned to two older fussy guys. It was particularly tidy and drove really nicely, I even made the comment that it would have been a good one to locate at auction.

HULK_I6T · 30-06-2015, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR5

As we were HWP we only used SS Commodores and XR6 Turbo's (we stopped purchasing XR8's back in the BA model days as they had a tendency to stall for some reason when trying to do quick turns and neither ourselves or Ford could work out why. The turbo's didn't do this but man could we get them to glow red hot).

Cheers

thats the reason... Cops absolutely thrash these cars from the get go... 3 years changeover is all about when warranty expires... make it someone elses problem after they thrash the guts out of them..

40,000km in a police pursuit car is equivalent to 200,000km in a private well loved car. The Police absolutely flog the guts out of them... (per above quote)

Ive inspected some ex copper cars and they look like a wild animal has been loose inside them, everything marked up, scratched, loose. Inside and out, completely worn out.

XR5 · 30-06-2015, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

thats the reason... Cops absolutely thrash these cars from the get go... 3 years changeover is all about when warranty expires... make it someone elses problem after they thrash the guts out of them..

40,000km in a police pursuit car is equivalent to 200,000km in a private well loved car. The Police absolutely flog the guts out of them... (per above quote)

Ive inspected some ex copper cars and they look like a wild animal has been loose inside them, everything marked up, scratched, loose. Inside and out, completely worn out.

They are flogged all right. They need to be. Go jump in a pursuit and have to comply with police guidelines in relation to safe driving policy relating to pursuits when it comes to things like running red lights, crossing intersections, calling the pursuit on police radio all while trying to keep up with the dirtbag you are chasing whose only thought is to get away and has no responsibilities towards other members of the public. Also urgent duty runs where you are trying to get to persons trapped prangs or fatals or to the domestic where hubby is flogging the missus to death. Contrary to popular belief HWP will and do attend these jobs. We may not do the charge but we are often the first ones there involved in the fight with the drunken/violent/drug induced idiot or idiots.

Most people don't realise any of this when they see the HWP car fly by them at a million miles per hour and the ridiculous reality HWP shows shown on the tv are so restricted, scrutinised and screened before airing. I was offered the chance to do one episode a few years ago when I worked in a patrol in South West Sydney. I ended up not doing it but our briefing told us what to ignore, what to do, what to say and where to go while the cameras were with us. It is about as far from reality policing as it gets.

So yes the cars are driven hard and flogged and most city cars have been put hard over median strips etc but that is part of the job. Policing isn't your average 9 to 5 jobs and the vehicles used don't get treated and are not asked to do what your average fleet vehicle gets asked to do. It's got nothing to do with flogging the cars because you can, it's because they are needed to be when people's lives and public safety is the major priority. I'm sure if anyone's family member was trapped in a car or being bashed senseless they wouldn't mind if I drove the tyres off the rims and blew the engine to hell in order to get to them and help them

HULK_I6T · 30-06-2015, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR5

They are flogged all right. They need to be. Go jump in a pursuit and have to comply with police guidelines in relation to safe driving policy relating to pursuits when it comes to things like running red lights, crossing intersections, calling the pursuit on police radio all while trying to keep up with the dirtbag you are chasing whose only thought is to get away and has no responsibilities towards other members of the public. Also urgent duty runs where you are trying to get to persons trapped prangs or fatals or to the domestic where hubby is flogging the missus to death. Contrary to popular belief HWP will and do attend these jobs. We may not do the charge but we are often the first ones there involved in the fight with the drunken/violent/drug induced idiot or idiots.

Most people don't realise any of this when they see the HWP car fly by them at a million miles per hour and the ridiculous reality HWP shows shown on the tv are so restricted, scrutinised and screened before airing. I was offered the chance to do one episode a few years ago when I worked in a patrol in South West Sydney. I ended up not doing it but our briefing told us what to ignore, what to do, what to say and where to go while the cameras were with us. It is about as far from reality policing as it gets.

So yes the cars are driven hard and flogged and most city cars have been put hard over median strips etc but that is part of the job. Policing isn't your average 9 to 5 jobs and the vehicles used don't get treated and are not asked to do what your average fleet vehicle gets asked to do. It's got nothing to do with flogging the cars because you can, it's because they are needed to be when people's lives and public safety is the major priority. I'm sure if anyone's family member was trapped in a car or being bashed senseless they wouldn't mind if I drove the tyres off the rims and blew the engine to hell in order to get to them and help them

Game, set and match.... I applaud the police for their duty, they are exceptional people.. The cars are a tool of trade and understandably so.

But its the next owners of these cars that always try and say they have been driven lightly and its a detectives personal car etc etc.. As above the police have thrashed the guts out of them.

Franco Cozzo · 29-06-2015, 10:54 PM

Waste of tax payer money IMO,

I was pulling looms and furniture out of fully maintained 40,000km Mercedes Vitos to put them in new VW Transporters.

Then out of 40,000km old VW Transporters into new VW Transporters again.

On the other hand Ambulances were going to 200,000km+ and they spend all their life loaded up, and how many code 1 calls would they do a day where its lights, sirens and thrashing the crap out of it vs cops?

50% of the Ambos to be put out of their misery would come limping in the door with engine lights on, running like a bag of dicks, to be pulled apart and sold at auction to a courier.

Victoria Police had no problems buying new vans but for some reason didn't want to buy new wiring looms, its 10x easier just putting a new loom into a new van than cutting out the old one and rejoining it again in the new one and spending so much more labour time **** farting around to 'save money'.

They could go to 100,000km no problems I reckon, if I was a high up in the state government I'd be cutting back on Victoria Police getting new vehicles so quickly, at least double or triple the distance before they can turn them over.

**Giant Cranium** · 30-06-2015, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Waste of tax payer money IMO,

I was pulling looms and furniture out of fully maintained 40,000km Mercedes Vitos to put them in new VW Transporters.

Then out of 40,000km old VW Transporters into new VW Transporters again.

On the other hand Ambulances were going to 200,000km+ and they spend all their life loaded up, and how many code 1 calls would they do a day where its lights, sirens and thrashing the crap out of it vs cops?

50% of the Ambos to be put out of their misery would come limping in the door with engine lights on, running like a bag of dicks, to be pulled apart and sold at auction to a courier.

Victoria Police had no problems buying new vans but for some reason didn't want to buy new wiring looms, its 10x easier just putting a new loom into a new van than cutting out the old one and rejoining it again in the new one and spending so much more labour time **** farting around to 'save money'.

They could go to 100,000km no problems I reckon, if I was a high up in the state government I'd be cutting back on Victoria Police getting new vehicles so quickly, at least double or triple the distance before they can turn them over.

kept you in a job, i never complain if i have a job because of it

superyob · 30-06-2015, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Waste of tax payer money IMO,

I was pulling looms and furniture out of fully maintained 40,000km Mercedes Vitos to put them in new VW Transporters.

Then out of 40,000km old VW Transporters into new VW Transporters again.

On the other hand Ambulances were going to 200,000km+ and they spend all their life loaded up, and how many code 1 calls would they do a day where its lights, sirens and thrashing the crap out of it vs cops?

50% of the Ambos to be put out of their misery would come limping in the door with engine lights on, running like a bag of dicks, to be pulled apart and sold at auction to a courier.

Victoria Police had no problems buying new vans but for some reason didn't want to buy new wiring looms, its 10x easier just putting a new loom into a new van than cutting out the old one and rejoining it again in the new one and spending so much more labour time **** farting around to 'save money'.

They could go to 100,000km no problems I reckon, if I was a high up in the state government I'd be cutting back on Victoria Police getting new vehicles so quickly, at least double or triple the distance before they can turn them over.

Off topic alert! Big Damo, do you know where I could get a gearbox for a 2005 Vito?

nstg8a · 29-06-2015, 11:12 PM

But if they're selling them on for either a profit, or breaking even then it doesn't really matter.
If they waited longer to rack up more Kay's, to save money on buying less cars then it would backfire because those cars with higher Kay's will fetch that much less at auction.

**Revolver** · 30-06-2015, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nstg8a

But if they're selling them on for either a profit, or breaking even then it doesn't really matter.
If they waited longer to rack up more Kay's, to save money on buying less cars then it would backfire because those cars with higher Kay's will fetch that much less at auction.

The Funny thing is, the original 4 bright yellow "Fatal 4" HSV Club-sport SVR's sold for a profit when they went for Auction up here in QLD a few years ago.. I dont know when the next 4 are up for it, but it was an interesting note.

I wonder what the original 10 Red Monaros went for.

danzvtil · 30-06-2015, 08:43 AM

SA govt several years ago changed their general fleet from 2 yr 40k to 3 yr 60k, it was deemed the price difference on the auction floor was minimal.
The local councils will often have 2-3 yo passenger cars with really low kays (corolla etc), a broker I used to deal with said they would fetch only a grand or 2 below new car replacement at auction because dealers can class them as demo at a stretch.
SA even self insures its cars, as the cost of repair and replacements is vastly less than insuring the whole fleet over a year.

mechanic · 30-06-2015, 10:21 AM

Having worked at Ford dealerships in the past I think the reason would be that they're flogged from day one. Of course some cars aren't used in that manner and some coppers buy them for themselves.
No problem to do wheel alignments on the same vehicle twice in a week, nothing like running over a few kerbs to knock things out of kilter.
Could be different these days maybe.
Do police have their own service departments now or is it still done by the dealers?

Smoke Pursuit · 30-06-2015, 12:02 PM

Lol.....

Yes Hulk...

Ive seen plenty of ex police Falcon's and Commodores go through the auctions and they are not as bad as you suggest. They service them more regularly, and when they are decommissioned they are refinished to near new (including a roadworthy certificate), atleast in QLD.

Like any fleet operator some of them are better looked after then others but most of the HWP ones are mint. In QLD they run HSV R8's, FPV's etc and most of them who drive them are enthusiasts themselves, plus they are under strict fleet policy to take care of them.