Drag racing with a toploader

XDOUBLEU · 23-03-2013, 11:57 PM

Do any of you guys have any tips and tricks for racing with a toploader?

I have been having trouble with my shifts, especially 1st to 2nd at full noise. If I try to grab second in the burnout, It crunches and won't go into gear, and then second crunches after the launch too. But if I stay in first during the burnout, then I can get second ok after launch.

Is this an inherent problem with pushing a toploader hard? Or do I have a problem with my setup

The synchro looks ok, but I am considering removing every second tooth off the synchro cone in an attempt to get a better shift at hi rpm . Has any of you guys done this mod before, and do I need to mod the gear as well?

I am running an xw in full street trim with 393 clevo, toploader, centre force dual friction clutch, and 4.11 rear. 6 cyl front springs, koni shocks, 235 et streets

Last week, with a new clutch I ran a pb of 12.07 @ 119 mph and watching the vid. I could have had a cut lunch between gears . What can I do to make my toploader work? I am determined to delv deep into the 11 s before I can it And fit an auto
Cheers

tex · 24-03-2013, 04:37 AM

How hard are you spinning the clevo on gear change? Maybe try dropping the revs in 100rpm increments until you find the point it takes the change ok?

It might have some clutch drag under maximum attack, a clutch swap may also fix it, but that's a tad expensive to try at this stage me thinks. Does the pedal move at all as you run down the track?

Why don't you just start the burnout in second gear, it's not like it will have any trouble with the second gear clutch drop.

I know they're no way similar, but my tremec won't take changing beyond 6700-6800, it baulks, and can even just plane refuse to swap closer to 7000. I only do 2nd gear burnouts in staging, and I drop the clutch in second so to avoid the 1-2 shift. I've done a few 3rd gear burns, but it seems a little less brutal on the driveline side stepping 2nd!

shrek378 · 24-03-2013, 08:21 PM

If you are useing a toploader for racing you are only playing :put a auto in it:!!

shrek378 · 25-03-2013, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

If you are useing a toploader for racing you are only playing :put a auto in it:!!

By the way I am speaking from experience not out my a-&e I ran 11.6 with full weight xy Gt with toploader after a lot of $$$ and sorting at the end of the day with what I spent I should of went hi stall auto.

Rural 351 · 25-03-2013, 04:06 PM

What ever you do don't put a bleeder in it stick with the manual, good syncros and a old school V gate shifter, you don't really need to take off every second tooth if your not going over 7500rpm, Ive done the tooth thing before its good but no comparison to the liberty gears I later fitted, If you want to run into the 10s give up on it and get a Jerico D4R (that's the latest version of the DR4 ) but a pretty much stock toploader will get low 11s depending on your engine and traction

If you do the syncros be careful there are some crap ones around and make sure the taper they run on is flat and then give them a little lap in before you chuck it back together, even think about a muncie input shaft if you still have the stock item they do break
A short shift into second would still be better than a slow shift
As for the burnout I always dump it in 2nd in the water
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvkgvHljfjc

XT302 · 27-03-2013, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

If you are useing a toploader for racing you are only playing :put a auto in it:!!

The owner of this says once he is over 40 he'll stick an old mans gearbox in it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PonbkUuAt4g

shrek378 · 28-03-2013, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XT302

The owner of this says once he is over 40 he'll stick an old mans gearbox in it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PonbkUuAt4g

Run whatever box you want;if you don't want a fast car you run a toploader!!!

XT302 · 29-03-2013, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

Run whatever box you want;if you don't want a fast car you run a toploader!!!

10.91@125 with toploader just with big input and output shaft, oh yeah and with dual plane airgap manifold, pump 98 octane, 3.89...

10.6@129 with Jericho, still 3.89, just had a change to single plane...10.704@128.77mph (airgap)

Not fast enough for you Shrek? whats yours run?

shrek378 · 29-03-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XT302

10.91@125 with toploader just with big input and output shaft, oh yeah and with dual plane airgap manifold, pump 98 octane, 3.89...

10.6@129 with Jericho, still 3.89, just had a change to single plane...10.704@128.77mph (airgap)

Not fast enough for you Shrek? whats yours run?

I have been out of the racing seen for ten years ten ago 10.2 351 clevo 131 mph xw falcon and just built another xw with 610 hp at the tyres have not run that car yet!!!

HEMI POWER · 29-03-2013, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XT302

10.91@125 with toploader just with big input and output shaft, oh yeah and with dual plane airgap manifold, pump 98 octane, 3.89...

10.6@129 with Jericho, still 3.89, just had a change to single plane...10.704@128.77mph (airgap)

Not fast enough for you Shrek? whats yours run?

Thats a great effort, toppies are pretty **** so kudos to the driver.

We know autos are better

Rural 351 · 27-03-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

If you are useing a toploader for racing you are only playing :put a auto in it:!!

I always think of going down the drag strip as playing, are you trying to say that when you have an auto its not fun anymore ?

GTB 351 · 27-03-2013, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

If you are useing a toploader for racing you are only playing :put a auto in it:!!

I went on to fit a 460 and full manual C6 into the black coupe in the mid 90's; it took all the fun out of it for me, thats why it will change back to a manual when it hits the track again!

Oh, and I'll probably be over 50 by then.

tex · 24-03-2013, 08:53 PM

Hahahaha, sound advice.

Legit290 · 24-03-2013, 08:58 PM

you can get some pretty trick after market shifters for the toploader...that may be an option?

XT302 · 25-03-2013, 09:50 PM

Search raging rhino in this section xygt toploader 31 input/output and aftermarket shifter 393 , 3.89 gears ran 11.2.... STILL manual but running pb 10.6

XDOUBLEU · 25-03-2013, 11:07 PM

Thanks for the info fellas
I have only done one meet with a clutch that doesn't slip. I will try 2nd gear burnout next time, and mayby try to short shift into 2nd too

I am shifting at 7000 rpm and as said a few less rpm on the first shift will be better than crunching

Any ideas what brand the good synchros are? I am also trying to find out what the max mainshaft end float should be. I have .030" at the moment and it seems excessive to me.

GTB 351 · 26-03-2013, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XDOUBLEU

Do any of you guys have any tips and tricks for racing with a toploader?

I have been having trouble with my shifts, especially 1st to 2nd at full noise. If I try to grab second in the burnout, It crunches and won't go into gear, and then second crunches after the launch too. But if I stay in first during the burnout, then I can get second ok after launch.

Is this an inherent problem with pushing a toploader hard? Or do I have a problem with my setup

The synchro looks ok, but I am considering removing every second tooth off the synchro cone in an attempt to get a better shift at hi rpm . Has any of you guys done this mod before, and do I need to mod the gear as well?

I am running an xw in full street trim with 393 clevo, toploader, centre force dual friction clutch, and 4.11 rear. 6 cyl front springs, koni shocks, 235 et streets

Last week, with a new clutch I ran a pb of 12.07 @ 119 mph and watching the vid. I could have had a cut lunch between gears . What can I do to make my toploader work? I am determined to delv deep into the 11 s before I can it And fit an auto
Cheers

Hi XDOUBLEU,
My black XB Coupe was running very similar numbers back in the mid 90's running a 351 4V clevo, toploader and 4.56 lsd. 12.1 @ 117mph. I was running a V-Gate shifter and no mods to the box.
The synchro mod was something I was going to do but I think a change in lubricant has the most dramatic effect. Switch to Dextron III ATF or transmax-z.
I always did my burnouts in third and accasionally even 4th gear (with slicks) as it is easier to tell when the tyres have gotten grippy and I was well known and photographed for my burnouts. I changed gears at 7300 - 7500 rpms which was a little beyond the limit of my oiling system.
Your car is good for at least 3 to 4 more tenths with some work. If you have input shaft problems(as I did: they'd break shifting into 4th if you had too much clutch) then check out toploader heaven or david kee toploaders, theres plenty of stronger affordable bits for them.
In the old days I saw some people send there toploaders to shops for lots of mods (layshaft lubrication mods, special synchros etc and spend lots of dollars and there boxes didnt seem to work any better than those with the ATF added.
I'm planning on running a toploader behind a 460 in the coupe in the next year or 2. I'll look at using a wide ratio big shaft set up from one of the vendors list above with a bull nose input, 31 spline output, transmax-z and my old V-Gate shifter, but being the lazy ***** that I am it will probably be the old box exactly as it was in the 90's.
Plenty of people told me I shifted too slow and when I was in plaster and couldnt race I let them put their money where there mouth was; I let 2 guys run my car and the quicker one kept missing gears, the other couldnt launch it and neither criticised my gear changing after that. The hardest thing to teach yourself is to change gears without lifting your foot from the accelerator! It stops the car falling over on each gearchange.

TC200six · 28-03-2013, 09:29 PM

IMO Toploaders may be a very durable box, but they would be terrible for racing where you shifting all the time. Maybe it's because I'm too soft after driving cars with other manuals

tex · 29-03-2013, 07:13 PM

^^^^^^^^^thats some awesome driving right there^^^^^^^^^^

shrek378 · 29-03-2013, 08:10 PM

Question How many 7-9 second pro streeters do you see with a Toploader?

mex351 · 05-04-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

Question How many 7-9 second pro streeters do you see with a Toploader?

Question how many 3 speed autos do you see in Pro Stock? And they are the fastest NAT ASP manual cars on the planet!

Why don't we see top loaders because there 30 years old and we have better now days and they can't handle 1500hp and launches @ 7500 rpm thats why.Your not that silly so why say such a silly comment.

shrek378 · 05-04-2013, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mex351

Question how many 3 speed autos do you see in Pro Stock? And they are the fastest NAT ASP manual cars on the planet!

Why don't we see top loaders because there 30 years old and we have better now days and they can't handle 1500hp and launches @ 7500 rpm thats why.Your not that silly so why say such a silly comment.

Totally agree with pro stock there engines are built with a power spread to run a six speed man or what ever they are" the original topic was I said I would not bother with toploader again because with our type of engine combos and vehicles you will go faster with a hi stall auto every day of the week a high ten toploader car is very fast yes"but a high stall auto car will be faster and sorry but the first one at the end of the track is the winner.

jcxr · 05-04-2013, 08:11 PM

Yep, run auto trans fluid as your gear oil. Its an old trick that I used in the '70's. It also puts lesser loads on bearings and a better load area on the gears. Some blokes have been known to add friction modifier to gear boxes and completely stuffed all synchros in the 'box.

mex351 · 05-04-2013, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

Totally agree with pro stock there engines are built with a power spread to run a six speed man or what ever they are" the original topic was I said I would not bother with toploader again because with our type of engine combos and vehicles you will go faster with a hi stall auto every day of the week a high ten toploader car is very fast yes"but a high stall auto car will be faster and sorry but the first one at the end of the track is the winner.

Did old mate say he had a 7-9 second car either?He wants to run a top loader bro,how hard is that for you to understand?

Id ask some track racers for advice as some still use top loaders.

Rural 351 · 07-04-2013, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shrek378

sorry but the first one at the end of the track is the winner.

. Or a break out

XW WA · 30-03-2013, 01:36 AM

Personal preferance i reckon. I would rather a 10.9 toploader than a slush box. Thats probably quicker than my car will ever go anyway . Obviously worked autos are quicker down the strip when you get to the very low numbers but you get extra credit running a stick on the 1/4 IMO. Have seen some pretty awseome numbers from the mustang guys running toploaders in the states tho . Probably change the clutch a fair bit tho , but go the manual s . clevo ,toploader ,9 inch .that is all

XW WA · 30-03-2013, 01:46 AM

Why is there not a class for manuals and one for autos at the drags ?

shrek378 · 03-04-2013, 08:56 AM

That's what the car run mate 2003 2004 in tassie some people on the forum would remember it.

shrek378 · 03-04-2013, 09:01 AM

I sold it to a guy in Sydney he gassed it and it run 8.90 150!!!

shrek378 · 03-04-2013, 09:09 AM

When chi heads came out I bought one of the first lot of heads they made had them handported by pavtek in melb it was the fastest street ford in tassie back then,there was a mag I think it was performance ford they did top ten of every state it is in some of the magazines.