Newsflash: Front Wheel Drive is rubbish!

[388cube_edxr8]

Lo all

I keep hearing things about Front Wheel Drive cars and how they are more fuel and space efficient and so on and so forth. Everyone who builds them (pretty much every car maker nowadays - even Ford has the godawful Taurus) seems to quietly omit the fact that Front Wheel Drive is dynamically unstable for anything larger or heavier than a Corolla, and borderline dangerous for a large car like a Magna.

I had a think about it, and I reckon I've figured it out. Why doesn't someone build a car where the FWD drivetrain is in the boot, powering the rear wheels, and the front of the car would be the cargo space? Think Toyota MR2. Or Lotus Evora. Still just as efficient and cheap and practical, but more stable.

It could even be called 'sporty' as technically the engine would be in the middle, as a FWD engine sits forward of the driven axle.

4 doors, mid mounted V6, rear wheel drive, no loss of cabin space or cargo space, or economy.

Who wouldn't be tempted by that?

Am I the only one that thinks this is a good idea?

[Yellow_Festiva]

I mentioned this once in a thread regarding the future of the Falcon and FWD debate.

If they went V6, how costly would it be to engineer a rear mounted / RWD "Global" platform? You would prob save 50-100kg from the driveline but would pose a whole lot of other problems such as the heavy engineering involved and the heavy weight biased towards the rear.

I think it is a good idea... but it will probably never happen.

[Pat Riley]

Porsche have been using engines in their rear for many moons - this is not a new idea. I once asked a well-known dealer why don't they put the engine in the rear for a family sedan and his response was that people buy family sedans so they can carry people and their belongings. You won't be able to carry the shopping with the cargo area in the front - just won't have enough space. Would people drive around with half a bike sticking out of what would otherwise be their bonnet? No

They also mentioned the unevenness of the weight of the car, and the fact that the crumple zone on a car setup this way would not be as safe. A large family sedan with bulk room at the front for storage which is largely unused, plus rear passengers and a heavy engine in the back, would make the car handle like crap too.

[Ghiadude]

No, ive often thought about it and the only problems i can foresee is that cooling is compromised(but has been over come in the past) and cargo space in the front would be not as usefull because of the sloping front end on modern cars. Theres also the fact that rear engined cars can be a bit of a hand full when driven at/past the limit of adhesion. They can tank slap like crazy! a good dsc should sort this out though.
DOABLE but unconventional....

[388cube_edxr8]

Despite the problems, I think most informed people would prefer this over a Magna.

I see plenty of applications for a cheap family sports car.

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

You will have enough space, we are not adding things to the vehicle, just moving stuff around.

Are you telling me that the entire engine bay of a Falcon is not big enough for your groceries? You must have one massive family.

It's not necessarily the width, it's the depth. Unless you have the storage area scrapping the road, you aren't going to be able to fit much in there based on the downward sloping of cars.

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Despite the problems, I think most informed people would prefer this over a Magna.

Nothing wrong with a Magna - they are still a solid car. Below is a list of other FWD cars that are fairly large and don't fall under the same banner:

Audi A6 (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Honda Accord (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Hyundai Grandeur (LONGER AND WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Toyota Aurion (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Toyota Camry (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Honda Accord Euro (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Hyundai Sonata (WIDER THAN A MAGNA AND FWD)
Nissan Maxima (ALMOST SAME LENGTH AND WIDTH AS MAGNA AND FWD)

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by BA Falcon

Nothing wrong with a Magna - they are still a solid car. Below is a list of other FWD cars that are fairly large and don't fall under the same banner:

Toyota Aurion
Toyota Camry
Audi A6
Honda Accord
Honda Accord Euro
Nissan Maxima
Hyundai Sonata
Hyundai Grandeur

All of those cars make me physically sick when I even think about them. I suspect I may have some sort of Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

All of those cars make me physically sick when I even think about them. I suspect I may have some sort of Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

Frontwheeldriveaphobia:
This illness afflicts a large proportion of Australian males and is sadly going largely untreated. It afflicts the patient with an unnerving fear of all vehicles not driven by the rear wheels. Acute sufferers might even be afraid to walk through shopping centre carparks for fear of exposure to a front wheel drive car. Symptoms can be treated with a short blast down a winding road in a ford falcon or similar and although holden commodores profess to be rear wheel drive - these should be avoided by sufferers as the commodores handling from its cheap and nasty macpherson strut front end can lead to patients being dazed confused and asking how a car with rwd can handle that bad. This disease is also related to cantgetintoanythingwithlessthanfivelitreitis and wontdriveanythingwithoutaturbothesizeofaplanetitis . The treatments of which are very similar to Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

Frontwheeldriveaphobia:
This illness afflicts a large proportion of Australian males and is sadly going largely untreated. It afflicts the patient with an unnerving fear of all vehicles not driven by the rear wheels. Acute sufferers might even be afraid to walk through shopping centre carparks for fear of exposure to a front wheel drive car. Symptoms can be treated with a short blast down a winding road in a ford falcon or similar and although holden commodores profess to be rear wheel drive - these should be avoided by sufferers as the commodores handling from its cheap and nasty macpherson strut front end can lead to patients being dazed confused and asking how a car with rwd can handle that bad. This disease is also related to cantgetintoanythingwithlessthanfivelitreitis and wontdriveanythingwithoutaturbothesizeofaplanetitis . The treatments of which are very similar to Frontwheeldriveaphobia.

Wow. Just... wow. Seriously, do you know me? That's exactly what I have!

[Pat Riley]

I think with the dynamics of new cars these days, the whole FWD vs RWD debate is largely void. Unless you are after a performance car which the vast majority of the population are not, you would not need to drive a RWD.

If you drive a car within the rules of the law, there's very little difference.

I know people who have bought new cars such as the Toyota Aurion and Honda Accord and assumed they were rear-wheel drive, only to find out months after owning them (from me) that they were front-wheel drive.

P.S. I think the owner of an Audi A6 would laugh at the idea of driving an ED Falcon. Seriously I have driven all of the FWD large family sedans on the market cars and there's no comparison in say an Aurion or 380, which both handle very well to your car, an ED Falcon which handles like a boat without power steering.

[Windsor220]

I drove a 380 the other day. Been about 6 months since I've driven one. I remembered thinking at the time the handling and grip was quite good. You just dont realise when you drive them all the time. Need to drive other cars to compare.

[DOC]

Volkswagen / Pequot from memory also rear wheel drive / motor

[388cube_edxr8]

So aside from being a large car with a boot the size of a mid size car, are there any other potential faults?

The nutty professor in me wants to build one...

[388cube_edxr8]

Well that's funny because I am an ED Falcon owner and I laugh at the idea of someone buying a FWD from Audi, a car maker world famous for its AWD systems.

And my ED handles like a kart, it weighs 1500 kilos with sports suspension and tyres as wide as your chest.

Show me FWD Aurion that handles that good and Ill show you how to bend physics and the space time continuum.

[Pat Riley]

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

And my ED handles like a kart, it weighs 1500 kilos with sports suspension and tyres as wide as your chest.

Show me FWD Aurion that handles that good and Ill show you how to bend physics and the space time continuum.

Do yourself a favour and have your dad drive you to a car dealership, have him drive any car, caravan, bus or truck with at least 4 wheels and power steering, and have him tell you that it drives better than an ED Falcon.

[388cube_edxr8]

Do yourself a favour and have your dad drive you to a dealership, compare an Aurion with any modern RWD car of similar price and tell me that the Aurion drives better.

[Ghiadude]

P.S. I think the owner of an Audi A6 would laugh at the idea of driving an ED Falcon. Seriously I have driven all of the FWD large family sedans on the market cars and there's no comparison in say an Aurion or 380, which both handle very well to your car, an ED Falcon which handles like a boat without power steering.

So let me get this straight - your telling a guy thats never driven an aurion etc to drive one because it handles better than a car that you yourself havent driven.....youve put his car down saying it doesnt handle and you havent even driven it. your not a very nice bloke are you?

[snappy]

I dont think rear engine falcon would work , I you want a idea of a car for the future. I seen it some where on telly no idea who's idea it is or who made it.

But bascally they had a platform That had interchanble bodies .
So say today you need a ute you drop that shell on to that platform and away you go . Next day people mover lift the ute off drom the suv/van shell on again away you go
So you coud have all these varients on one platform in your own shed . Tell me that would not be handy

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by snappy

I dont think rear engine falcon would work , I you want a idea of a car for the future. I seen it some where on telly no idea who's idea it is or who made it.

But bascally they had a platform That had interchanble bodies .
So say today you need a ute you drop that shell on to that platform and away you go . Next day people mover lift the ute off drom the suv/van shell on again away you go
So you coud have all these varients on one platform in your own shed . Tell me that would not be handy

Car of the future? You could do this with a Ford Model T


Rear engined passenger cars have been done as well; The Chevrolet Corvair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Rear engined passenger cars have been done as well; The Chevrolet Corvair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

Family roadtrip porn right there. If i ever see one of these on the road i think i will fall to the ground immediately and die laughing. I'm not saying they are a bad car, i don't know anything about them really, but that is the ugliest ball sack of a vehicle i have ever witnessed.

EDIT: Mum looks hot though. When the shame of riding around in that monster gets too much for her i'll give her a lift back to civilization :

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Family roadtrip porn right there. If i ever see one of these on the road i think i will fall to the ground immediately and die laughing. I'm not saying they are a bad car, i don't know anything about them really, but that is the ugliest ball sack of a vehicle i have ever witnessed.

EDIT: Mum looks hot though. When the shame of riding around in that monster gets too much for her i'll give her a lift back to civilization :

Wow what a machine! I didn't even see that pic. That thing is based on the corvair, but the standard version was a competitor for the first Falcon in the states. It got an entire chapter devodted to it in Ralph Naders "Unsafe at any speed" book.

[chevypower]

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

[snappy]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

actually with dsc and traction control any advantage fwd drive had in slippery conditions is gone

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

Mate, you hit the nail on the head. RWD cars are what most Aussie blokes grew up with when they were kids and therefore purchase down the track. But, as the large car segment(and its RWD format) dwindles, enthusiasts will keep their RWD cars while the rest of the car driving public move on. Enthusiasts and the motor media will cry. Unfortunately, Aussies will lose jobs.

I see nothing wrong with the new American Taurus, it looks a lot better than the one Australia received in the '90s. If it is economic to own and run and has similar proportions to the Falcon, I see no reason why it cannot replace the Falcon in a shrinking segment. Marketing will be a challenge locally because if it isn't a Falcon, the dealers aren't interested. Ford here would probably call it a Falcon anyway to solve that problem.

Ford, I guess, will have to ask themselves whether it is viable investing money in a car that apart from the antipodes, doesn't exist anywhere else. With tariffs here coming down and a free trade agreement with the United States, it only makes sense for the One Ford plan and dump the Falcon and import the Taurus for masses and the Mustang for the enthusiasts.

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I think Rear-wheel-drive is such a buzz term in Australia, people would prefer a Kingswood to a sophisticated Taurus SHO. Yet it's ok for Audi or Subaru to have AWD based on FWD layout because they are good no matter what. But the real reason we want RWD Falcons is for burnouts. Americans should just forget they suck in the snow right? I mean you go to Mt Buller once every few years..you know what it's like, it's not that bad right?

Actually both Audi and Subaru have a north/south layout on their cars (except audi A3) even on audi's front drivers. VW Passat and Phaeton also mounted this way, must look up the Skoda superb, not sure on it.

Stoney!

[Stoney!]

Sorry, forgot to mention current model Passat is transverse mounted, previous was North West mounted. They swapped from using the Audi V6 engine in the North/South position to their own VR6 which is essentially an Inline 6 so it's width packages easier into transverse layouts, which is how it fits in the golf, and also why mercedes used it in their vans for a long time.

Stoney!

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Stoney!

Actually both Audi and Subaru have a north/south layout on their cars (except audi A3) even on audi's front drivers. VW Passat and Phaeton also mounted this way, must look up the Skoda superb, not sure on it.

Stoney!

I stand corrected then! A4, A6 and Passat have most of the torque going to the front wheels on AWD models though, right?

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I stand corrected then! A4, A6 and Passat have most of the torque going to the front wheels on AWD models though, right?

The VW system transmits the power to the wheel with the most grip, and the Audi system is a 40/60 split that's rear biased, good for hanging the rear out!

Stoney!

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I stand corrected then! A4, A6 and Passat have most of the torque going to the front wheels on AWD models though, right?

It's FWD until it detects slip, then it'll shuffle power to the rear. Having driven one of these setups for nearly 2 years, it seems to work quite well. In extreme wet conditions and engaging launch control, 0-100 times are virtually identical.