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06-02-2012, 10:19 PM | #1 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 650
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Hello guys
At first i had the idea of getting a second hand car gas tank and filling that up with normal gas from the servo and using it to replace my bbq swap and go bottle Has anyone filled their 8.5 kilo bbq gas bottle from a servo? I know once this was done around 10 years ago, now its all swap and go Does anyone still take their bottle to their sevo and fill it themselves? |
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06-02-2012, 10:22 PM | #2 | ||
Awesome
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In my own little world..Everyone here knows me :)
Posts: 9,401
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I don't think you can fill them up yourself anymore. Even at Supagas, they refill them for you.
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06-02-2012, 10:23 PM | #3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NSW Central Coast
Posts: 1,266
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yeah i do...but not the servo ..our local corner shop.
$17.00 cheap as |
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06-02-2012, 10:27 PM | #4 | ||
Where to next??
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,893
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Isn't the mix for cars slightly different than to bbq fuel? (ratio of butane and propane?)
Providing you want to use the gas for the bbq? Remember reading about doing what you suggest a few years ago. Prob against the emissions laws? |
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06-02-2012, 11:09 PM | #5 | |||
meh.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Was Central Coast, Now Sydney NSW
Posts: 8,584
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Quote:
From what I was told by numerous servo's when I get the BBQ bottle re-filled, they use the same stuff in normal LPG, as they do for the LPG in BBQ bottle's...
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06-02-2012, 10:30 PM | #6 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 786
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My local service station still offers the refill service.
From what I have observed, the refill service must still be viable, as he now has three massive elgas bottles to decant from versus the one he had when I worked there as a young lad. The swap and go is very convenient but you pay for it. |
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06-02-2012, 10:44 PM | #7 | |||
Where to next??
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 8,893
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Quote:
Having said that - heaps of petrol stations in Sydney still display a price for BBQ gas refills. So I guess they still do it. Several years ago I remember the servo wouldn't fill my tank as it needs a service every 10 years and the one I had was ancient.... was cheaper to buy a new empty one off the shelf at Big W. |
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07-02-2012, 12:19 AM | #8 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 598
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I think its pure propane for BBQ and butane/propane for cars.
The connections are different between the two as well? |
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07-02-2012, 08:39 AM | #9 | |||
Silhouette TS AWD
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Ocean Reef, WA
Posts: 166
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Quote:
Yes the BBQ bottle doesn't have the bigger fitting but it's only an adaptor away (I still fill my own BBQ bottle from my house bottles). Cheap as. (My dad was an authorised LPG Mechanic from way back in the 80's but he has since retired) |
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07-02-2012, 01:38 PM | #10 | |||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 934
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Quote:
Sometimes the Autogas at servos is 50/50, or 60/40 or 100%Propane. A lot of regional areas have servos with straight Propane, sometimes this is due to the extra cost of having a tanker with a blend load doing the servo and then another tanker going to the same town to the local LPG depot. So it's easier and more cost effective to split a load of 1 propane tanker to different drops around the same town. Even in the cities sometimes during the year, the servos will have straight propane. This is usually because of the high demand for Butane in different parts of the world in the manufacturing sector eg, plastics, which makes butane more expensive than propane at times. Some Melb servos are getting straight propane at the moment for cost reasons. Sometimes a refinery will be doing a planned maintenance shutdown on a certain piece of equipment which will cause a local shortage of one of the products. Sometimes it's climatic conditions that determine what you get at a servo for Autogas. In extremely cold weather, the butane has no vapour pressure and sits in the tank like water, so it won't flow properly with pumps and such. We have certain Alpine area customers that must get straight propane during winter months. And there are a lot of people will tell you that you can run your vapour fed BBQ or other LPG appliance with Autogas. There are some real risks in doing this due to the high boiling temp of the butane. Depending on ambient temps, the butane will remain as a liquid instead of boiling off to a vapour and your vapour draw appliance gets a gut full of liquid which puts the flame out and then you have bigger problems. Always put straight propane into a cylinder that is going to be used for a propane appliance. -Craig |
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07-02-2012, 01:56 PM | #11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,882
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07-02-2012, 02:01 PM | #12 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
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A well written doc but I must disagree with the point above. If you are using a vapour system and providing you don't upset the bottle there is no way of getting a liquid past the valve and into the regulator of your BBQ system. Its a different story if you topple or invert the bottle.
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07-02-2012, 02:20 PM | #13 | ||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 934
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Yep, you guys are right on that. Thanks for pointing that out as I don't want to provide wrong info either.
I think I would only be correct on a Liquid draw cylinder via a regulator, then passing liquid due to extreme low temps keeping butane below its boiling point. For example a large liquid draw LPG tank supplying liquid up to a regulator to provide high volume vapour to industrial burners or something like that. -Craig |
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07-02-2012, 02:45 AM | #14 | ||
Call me Spud
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,995
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All this talk about propane reminds me of Hank from king of the hill. Butane is the bastard gas.
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07-02-2012, 08:51 AM | #15 | |||
Former BTIKD
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sunny Downtown Wagga Wagga. NSW.
Posts: 53,197
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Quote:
As for refilling your own Gas bottles don't go to a servo or anywhere that does the Swap 'n Go thing, BBQ's Galore and many other places will refill it for about half the Servo price.
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07-02-2012, 09:49 AM | #16 | ||
Ford Nut
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Coast NSW
Posts: 72
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BCF and BBQs Galore still do refills - i usually take mine to BCF so i can go check out the fishing gear as well LOL
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07-02-2012, 12:48 PM | #17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 650
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Yeah i was thinking about using the car gas bottle as a bbq bottle but i was going to place it on the trolley for easy moving
Didnt know that bbq's galore or bcf did refills Its just a big joke isnt it about people wanting to charge you about 5 times the price |
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07-02-2012, 01:07 PM | #18 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: outback S.A...hiding in a workshop
Posts: 3,513
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used to be able to buy the adapter off ebay to go from servo pump to barby bottle
I knew a couple of fellers who did this, they'd fill the car then fill the gas bottle at the same time one other thing about those swap and go bottles.....they are never full!...rip off!
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11-02-2012, 08:49 PM | #19 | |||||
Life begins at 40
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Melbourne. Socialist capital of Victoriastan.
Posts: 3,715
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It always concerns me when I read about people wanting to make adaptors so they can fill BBQ bottles at bowsers. Carkrz, Pcman and MarkAW have pretty much summed everything up.
I’ll just throw a few figures out there for people to consider if things go pear shaped. For those not familiar with the properties of propane, the expansion ratio is approximately 1:273. A 9KG BBQ bottle holds just over 17 litres of liquid because the density is around 0.51. 17.3 litres of liquid will expand to form 273 times that amount in vapour. 17.3 x 273 = 4,725 litres of vapour. Because this 4,725 litres is to rich to burn, the vapour mixes with air to create an explosive mixture at a ratio of around 5% vapour to 95% air. What we do now is multiply 4,725 Litres of vapour by 95% air. This will give us what’s known as the total explosive content. 4,725 x 95 = 448,874 That’s nearly half a million cubic litres of explosive atmosphere from a 9KG BBQ bottle. This is more than enough to blow up an average size house. Generally, rules are put in place to protect people from harming themselves and others. It isn’t all about saving a few dollars on filling the BBQ bottle. In my opinion, if you use the correct bottle that is designed for the device you are using it with and follow the correct procedures, the chances of anything going wrong are minimal. When you start using different blends, 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30 in something that’s designed solely for propane, you’re asking for trouble. Quote:
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11-02-2012, 09:14 PM | #20 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
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Quote:
As a tech question can I ask where you got the 273 ratio above? Is this just the compressed gas volume (P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 @ standard conditions) or does it also consider any change of volume due to thermal conditions cause that will blow the ratio by 1.5 for every 10 degrees C
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__________________________ They call it a rort when they're not in on it Mark |
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11-02-2012, 09:54 PM | #21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: Hallam
Posts: 1,897
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Quote:
Propane liquid to vapour ratio is 1:273 Butane 1:233, auto mix would be any where in between depending on Propane/Butane Ratio |
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07-02-2012, 02:14 PM | #22 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,752
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The difference between butane and propane is the flashpoint, butane has a lower flashpoint, which basically means it will ignite at a lower tempeture than propane, they mix it in auto-gas for that reason, it makes the cars easier to start. It is also used in cigarette lighters for the same reason.
And that is about the only difference
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07-02-2012, 02:37 PM | #23 | |||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 934
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Quote:
Butane flashpoint -60c Propane flashpoint -105c Propane lights up at a much lower temp. If lighters had propane in them then they would need to be aluminium or steel to be able to handle pressures of approx 600-1000kpa at different ambient temps. That would be awkward. Butane is more suitable for lighters at normal ambient temps due to its very high boiling point, therefore lower pressure for equal temp. Anywhere from 50kpa to 300kpa. -Craig |
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08-02-2012, 06:07 AM | #24 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Posts: 458
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What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune
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08-02-2012, 06:20 AM | #25 | |||
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08-02-2012, 10:28 AM | #26 | |||
growing up is optional
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Location: Gawler area SA
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Not sure I'd like to get caught doing it myself! |
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08-02-2012, 11:06 AM | #27 | |||
Regular Member
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__________________________ They call it a rort when they're not in on it Mark |
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11-02-2012, 10:28 PM | #28 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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08-02-2012, 10:33 AM | #29 | ||
See..Everybody Loves Ford
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Posts: 511
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The rent through Kleenheat for a 45kg bottle is about $25/year. The cost for a full delivered 45kg bottle costs me $121. A 45kg bottle of gas is pretty heavy though and something I probably wouldn't have swinging around on a trolley next to the BBQ. If you really wanted a big capacity bottle for your BBQ it might be worthwhile having the bottle in a fixed location on the house then getting a gas fitter to plumb it out to your BBQ. Then when you need gas...it's just a phone call to your gas supplier and they'll come swap it out for you.
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08-02-2012, 12:16 PM | #30 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: Salamander Bay
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if you are talking about refilling it from the bowser used for cars it is illegal and dangerous. the BBQ cylinders do not have the safety cut off that cars do . BBQ cylinders are only designed to be filled by decanting not by pump. If I saw anyone trying this at a servo I would be out of there then I would be calling workcover I don't want to die in an explosion caused by someone trying to save money
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