refill gas bottles

[saam]

Hello guys

At first i had the idea of getting a second hand car gas tank and filling that up with normal gas from the servo and using it to replace my bbq swap and go bottle

Has anyone filled their 8.5 kilo bbq gas bottle from a servo? I know once this was done around 10 years ago, now its all swap and go

Does anyone still take their bottle to their sevo and fill it themselves?

[Geez Louise]

I don't think you can fill them up yourself anymore. Even at Supagas, they refill them for you.

[Zedjay]

yeah i do...but not the servo ..our local corner shop.
$17.00 cheap as

[Yellow_Festiva]

Isn't the mix for cars slightly different than to bbq fuel? (ratio of butane and propane?)
Providing you want to use the gas for the bbq?
Remember reading about doing what you suggest a few years ago. Prob against the emissions laws?

[XRGhia]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Isn't the mix for cars slightly different than to bbq fuel? (ratio of butane and propane?)
Providing you want to use the gas for the bbq?
Remember reading about doing what you suggest a few years ago. Prob against the emissions laws?

From what I was told by numerous servo's when I get the BBQ bottle re-filled, they use the same stuff in normal LPG, as they do for the LPG in BBQ bottle's...

[calais]

My local service station still offers the refill service.

From what I have observed, the refill service must still be viable, as he now has three massive elgas bottles to decant from versus the one he had when I worked there as a young lad. The swap and go is very convenient but you pay for it.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by saam

Hello guys

At first i had the idea of getting a second hand car gas tank and filling that up with normal gas from the servo and using it to replace my bbq swap and go bottle

Has anyone filled their 8.5 kilo bbq gas bottle from a servo? I know once this was done around 10 years ago, now its all swap and go

Does anyone still take their bottle to their sevo and fill it themselves?

Hang on, I may have missed what you were asking... I can't remember the last time I filled up my own tank, probably 2 or 3 years ago (as in, I took my own tank there and they filled it).

Having said that - heaps of petrol stations in Sydney still display a price for BBQ gas refills. So I guess they still do it.

Several years ago I remember the servo wouldn't fill my tank as it needs a service every 10 years and the one I had was ancient.... was cheaper to buy a new empty one off the shelf at Big W.

[z80]

I think its pure propane for BBQ and butane/propane for cars.

The connections are different between the two as well?

[vxssm6]

Originally Posted by z80

I think its pure propane for BBQ and butane/propane for cars.

The connections are different between the two as well?

Z80, it's exactly the same gas mate.. ELGAS used to come to your house to fill your bottles and top up your car for you as well while they were there.

Yes the BBQ bottle doesn't have the bigger fitting but it's only an adaptor away (I still fill my own BBQ bottle from my house bottles). Cheap as.

(My dad was an authorised LPG Mechanic from way back in the 80's but he has since retired)

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by vxssm6

Z80, it's exactly the same gas mate.. ELGAS used to come to your house to fill your bottles and top up your car for you as well while they were there.

There is a bit of mis information in this thread. Generally speaking, BBQ gas is always 100%Propane. Autogas is a blend of Propane and Butane. But there are heaps of variables. Heres some.

Sometimes the Autogas at servos is 50/50, or 60/40 or 100%Propane. A lot of regional areas have servos with straight Propane, sometimes this is due to the extra cost of having a tanker with a blend load doing the servo and then another tanker going to the same town to the local LPG depot. So it's easier and more cost effective to split a load of 1 propane tanker to different drops around the same town.

Even in the cities sometimes during the year, the servos will have straight propane. This is usually because of the high demand for Butane in different parts of the world in the manufacturing sector eg, plastics, which makes butane more expensive than propane at times. Some Melb servos are getting straight propane at the moment for cost reasons.

Sometimes a refinery will be doing a planned maintenance shutdown on a certain piece of equipment which will cause a local shortage of one of the products.

Sometimes it's climatic conditions that determine what you get at a servo for Autogas. In extremely cold weather, the butane has no vapour pressure and sits in the tank like water, so it won't flow properly with pumps and such. We have certain Alpine area customers that must get straight propane during winter months.

And there are a lot of people will tell you that you can run your vapour fed BBQ or other LPG appliance with Autogas. There are some real risks in doing this due to the high boiling temp of the butane. Depending on ambient temps, the butane will remain as a liquid instead of boiling off to a vapour and your vapour draw appliance gets a gut full of liquid which puts the flame out and then you have bigger problems. Always put straight propane into a cylinder that is going to be used for a propane appliance.
-Craig

[pcman]

Originally Posted by crakrz

And there are a lot of people will tell you that you can run your vapour fed BBQ or other LPG appliance with Autogas. There are some real risks in doing this due to the high boiling temp of the butane. Depending on ambient temps, the butane will remain as a liquid instead of boiling off to a vapour and your vapour draw appliance gets a gut full of liquid which puts the flame out and then you have bigger problems. Always put straight propane into a cylinder that is going to be used for a propane appliance.
-Craig

its impossible for a bbq to draw liquid lpg from a standard bbq tank UNLESS you tip the tank upside down but then it will always 100% feed liquid lpg outta the tank

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by crakrz

And there are a lot of people will tell you that you can run your vapour fed BBQ or other LPG appliance with Autogas. There are some real risks in doing this due to the high boiling temp of the butane. Depending on ambient temps, the butane will remain as a liquid instead of boiling off to a vapour and your vapour draw appliance gets a gut full of liquid which puts the flame out and then you have bigger problems. Always put straight propane into a cylinder that is going to be used for a propane appliance.
-Craig

Craig
A well written doc but I must disagree with the point above. If you are using a vapour system and providing you don't upset the bottle there is no way of getting a liquid past the valve and into the regulator of your BBQ system. Its a different story if you topple or invert the bottle.

[crakrz]

Yep, you guys are right on that. Thanks for pointing that out as I don't want to provide wrong info either.
I think I would only be correct on a Liquid draw cylinder via a regulator, then passing liquid due to extreme low temps keeping butane below its boiling point.

For example a large liquid draw LPG tank supplying liquid up to a regulator to provide high volume vapour to industrial burners or something like that.

-Craig

[Spudz27]

All this talk about propane reminds me of Hank from king of the hill. Butane is the bastard gas.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by saam

Hello guys

At first i had the idea of getting a second hand car gas tank and filling that up with normal gas from the servo and using it to replace my bbq swap and go bottle

Has anyone filled their 8.5 kilo bbq gas bottle from a servo? I know once this was done around 10 years ago, now its all swap and go

Does anyone still take their bottle to their sevo and fill it themselves?

Are you asking about using an LPG tank from a car so as to have a bigger bottle for your BBQ ? if so, 65L of gas will be pretty heavy hanging on the end of the BBQ

As for refilling your own Gas bottles don't go to a servo or anywhere that does the Swap 'n Go thing, BBQ's Galore and many other places will refill it for about half the Servo price.

[Link]

BCF and BBQs Galore still do refills - i usually take mine to BCF so i can go check out the fishing gear as well LOL

[saam]

Yeah i was thinking about using the car gas bottle as a bbq bottle but i was going to place it on the trolley for easy moving

Didnt know that bbq's galore or bcf did refills

Its just a big joke isnt it about people wanting to charge you about 5 times the price

[poppa smurf]

used to be able to buy the adapter off ebay to go from servo pump to barby bottle

I knew a couple of fellers who did this, they'd fill the car then fill the gas bottle at the same time

one other thing about those swap and go bottles.....they are never full!...rip off!

[Full Noise]

It always concerns me when I read about people wanting to make adaptors so they can fill BBQ bottles at bowsers. Carkrz, Pcman and MarkAW have pretty much summed everything up.

I’ll just throw a few figures out there for people to consider if things go pear shaped.

For those not familiar with the properties of propane, the expansion ratio is approximately 1:273.

A 9KG BBQ bottle holds just over 17 litres of liquid because the density is around 0.51.
17.3 litres of liquid will expand to form 273 times that amount in vapour.
17.3 x 273 = 4,725 litres of vapour.
Because this 4,725 litres is to rich to burn, the vapour mixes with air to create an explosive mixture at a ratio of around 5% vapour to 95% air.
What we do now is multiply 4,725 Litres of vapour by 95% air. This will give us what’s known as the total explosive content.

4,725 x 95 = 448,874

That’s nearly half a million cubic litres of explosive atmosphere from a 9KG BBQ bottle. This is more than enough to blow up an average size house.

Generally, rules are put in place to protect people from harming themselves and others. It isn’t all about saving a few dollars on filling the BBQ bottle.

In my opinion, if you use the correct bottle that is designed for the device you are using it with and follow the correct procedures, the chances of anything going wrong are minimal. When you start using different blends, 50/50, 60/40 or 70/30 in something that’s designed solely for propane, you’re asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by mik

what are the laws with fork lift bottles?

Leave the forklift bottles for forks and leave auto cylinders for cars. Also, forklift bottles are designed to be used only when they are on their side and facing the right way.

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

one other thing about those swap and go bottles.....they are never full!...rip off!

They’re not supposed to be full. There has to be some ullage space to allow for expansion, so they’ll generally fill them to around 85%, so if it’s around 85%, it’s full.

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

For those not familiar with the properties of propane, the expansion ratio is approximately 1:273.

Full Noise
As a tech question can I ask where you got the 273 ratio above? Is this just the compressed gas volume (P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 @ standard conditions) or does it also consider any change of volume due to thermal conditions cause that will blow the ratio by 1.5 for every 10 degrees C

[AU1XLS]

Originally Posted by MarkAW

Full Noise
As a tech question can I ask where you got the 273 ratio above? Is this just the compressed gas volume (P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 @ standard conditions) or does it also consider any change of volume due to thermal conditions cause that will blow the ratio by 1.5 for every 10 degrees C

Liquid to vapour ratio stays the same regardless of temp its the volume that changes. Most volumes, weight & qty are quoted at a corrected temperature of 15 degrees
Propane liquid to vapour ratio is 1:273 Butane 1:233, auto mix would be any where in between depending on Propane/Butane Ratio

[Trevor 57]

The difference between butane and propane is the flashpoint, butane has a lower flashpoint, which basically means it will ignite at a lower tempeture than propane, they mix it in auto-gas for that reason, it makes the cars easier to start. It is also used in cigarette lighters for the same reason.

And that is about the only difference

[crakrz]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

The difference between butane and propane is the flashpoint, butane has a lower flashpoint, which basically means it will ignite at a lower tempeture than propane, they mix it in auto-gas for that reason, it makes the cars easier to start. It is also used in cigarette lighters for the same reason.

And that is about the only difference

Approximates from memory here:
Butane flashpoint -60c
Propane flashpoint -105c

Propane lights up at a much lower temp.

If lighters had propane in them then they would need to be aluminium or steel to be able to handle pressures of approx 600-1000kpa at different ambient temps. That would be awkward.
Butane is more suitable for lighters at normal ambient temps due to its very high boiling point, therefore lower pressure for equal temp. Anywhere from 50kpa to 300kpa.
-Craig

[Springfield_Johny]

What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune

[GhiaEB]

Originally Posted by Springfield_Johny

What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune

I was going to suggest this also, but you beat me to it

[smally289]

Originally Posted by Springfield_Johny

What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune

I have a couple of mates that do this. One has an old ute with an LPG filler on the rear 1/4 and the red diamond stickers on the number plate, but it isn't on gas. He hides a 45kg gas bottle under the tarp that is connected to the filler and goes to the servo to fill it up. Costs bugger all.
Not sure I'd like to get caught doing it myself!

[MarkAW]

Originally Posted by Springfield_Johny

What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune

From memory Australian law and Australian Standards state its illegal for a bottle greater than approx 9.6kg(25 litre) to be filled using a decanter method (filled from a servo 200kg tank). See section 4.2.4 of Aust Standard 1596. Its why an 18kg caravan bottle cant be filled by a servo decanter tank apart from the fact that cylinders larger than 9kg aren't fitted with the screw out valve at the top which shows when full during filling.

[AU1XLS]

Originally Posted by Springfield_Johny

What about using one of the tall home lpg bottles and filling from a servo? Wife's workmates husband does this, reckons it costs him stuff all to refill his cylinders and he uses this method for his BBQ and his house gas. It costs over $100 to get an exchange has bottle for home. It sounds like a cheap solution, we go through around 4 big gas bottles a year at a cost of around $130 each replacement. If I could fill them myself for $0.70/litre I'd save a fortune

As above when filling at a servo what mix are you putting in your bottle? Propane which your appliances are jetted and regulated to run on or an automix?

[74_XB_Ute]

The rent through Kleenheat for a 45kg bottle is about $25/year. The cost for a full delivered 45kg bottle costs me $121. A 45kg bottle of gas is pretty heavy though and something I probably wouldn't have swinging around on a trolley next to the BBQ. If you really wanted a big capacity bottle for your BBQ it might be worthwhile having the bottle in a fixed location on the house then getting a gas fitter to plumb it out to your BBQ. Then when you need gas...it's just a phone call to your gas supplier and they'll come swap it out for you.

[FGII-XR6]

if you are talking about refilling it from the bowser used for cars it is illegal and dangerous. the BBQ cylinders do not have the safety cut off that cars do . BBQ cylinders are only designed to be filled by decanting not by pump. If I saw anyone trying this at a servo I would be out of there then I would be calling workcover I don't want to die in an explosion caused by someone trying to save money