Holden V8 sportscar not ‘guaranteed’ as HSV products questioned

[Sprint XR8]

HOLDEN executive director of marketing Mark Harland has revealed that he believes the brand must execute its small car, SUV and pick-up product strategy successfully to make V8 sportscar discussions with General Motors (GM) easier.

Speaking with GoAuto at the national media launch of the Astra sedan in northern New South Wales last week, Mr Harland – who has notched up six months in the role – insisted that the unnamed V8 sportscar was still in planning, but Holden must achieve other targets first.

That included, he listed, making successes from Astra small hatchback and sedan, Equinox medium SUV and Colorado pick-up ranges. “Certainly from a product point of view, you know the product line-up, where the growth is in Australia is obviously in the SUVs, the small- to medium-sized SUVs,” Mr Harland said.

“If we can execute on the upcoming product launches, I think that gives us a lot of credibility with the senior leadership back in Detroit so that our managing director, Mark Bernhard, can say, ‘Hey, we really think we’d like to have a rear-wheel-drive V8 as a halo car.’

“I think if we could execute all of that (new products) then we go back to the mothership, to General Motors corporate, and say, ‘We think a halo rear-wheel-drive car of some kind makes a lot of sense and it delivers a return on investment and it helps lift the brand’.

“(But) there’s nothing that we can announce at this point. There’s nothing guaranteed.”

Asked whether that meant the mysterious sportscar – announced at the Detroit motor show in January 2015 as a replacement for the Commodore V8 – was now paused, Mr Harland replied: “I wouldn't say it’s on pause.”

“I would say, yes, there is still appetite with obviously guys like Mark Reuss (former Holden managing director and current GM president) and some of the senior leadership that have been here,” he added.

“They understand there is a need for that kind of vehicle. I don’t think there’ s anything on pause, but I don’t think we can narrow down a day or a year or I don’t think we can get that granular level of detail until we’ve executed our business plan and then, it just makes all those conversations much easier.

“If, say, we got to do the job on Astra sedan, on next-generation Commodore, Equinox as well, and if we don’t hit our business goals, then there’s reason for doubt to say, ‘Why would we support a right-hand-drive, rear-wheel-drive V8 at a relatively low volume number if we can’t execute on the vehicles that should be high volume?’”

It was clear that Holden, which has suffered an annual sales collapse of 11,784 units between the time of the sportscar announcement (in January 2015 following 2014’s 106,092-unit sales haul) and the end of 2016 (94,308 units), had now fallen under harsher scrutiny from GM, which recently sold off unprofitable European brands Opel and Vauxhall to French conglomerate PSA.

“I would feel a lot more comfortable having those conversations with leadership if we accomplish our business goals with the upcoming products,” Mr Harland reiterated.

Asked whether a decision to build a GM sportscar – currently limited to the left-hand-drive-only, Mustang-challenging Chevrolet Camaro and supercar-baiting Corvette – in right-hand drive required a significant product planning timeframe, the executive director of marketing replied: “Correct.”

“Absolutely, the discussions of doing the plumbing for a right-hand-drive car has to go well in advance because if you do it retroactively, it just becomes cost prohibitive,” he admitted.

While Mr Harland could not confirm what the elusive Holden V8 sportscar could be, he admitted that importing a Camaro rival to the ultra-popular Ford Mustang was highly desirable.

“I would say I would love to have it (a rear-wheel-drive V8) as a halo vehicle much in the same way the Ford CMO (chief marketing officer) would say Mustang brings a great halo opportunity to Ford,” he explained.

“It’s something that still has a place, maybe not at the same volume levels that Commodore did in years past, but there’s still an opportunity as we’ve seen from Mustang, and I think it’s a lot easier to make that argument with the senior leadership if we execute on the upcoming launches.”

This month’s launch of the Astra sedan tips Holden past the halfway point of its promise to launch 24 new models before 2020, with the Astra Sportwagon, Equinox medium SUV, new Commodore and Acadia large SUV next on the brand’s hit list. However, the V8 sportscar could affect plans of Walkinshaw-offshoot HSV, the role of which Mr Harland admitted is currently under review.

“I think where does Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) fit in the portfolio, right?” he asked.

“I think Holden Special Vehicles does fit in the future. I’m not sure it fits in its current capacity, but certainly I could see a day where Holden Special Vehicles would be doing not just V8, they could be doing trucks and other things.”

HSV has not yet made announcement about its future, but GoAuto understands communication from the brand is imminent. However, Mr Harland confirmed that while HSV would still work with Holden products going forward, changes could be on the way.

“Working with Holden Special Vehicles as a company will continue,” he offered. “(But) we haven’t made any final decisions on what those (next-generation) vehicles could be, though we are in discussions with them. What we call them; that’s the discussion, the branding discussion that we’re having with them right now, and that really depends on what the product portfolio looks like.

“Which we haven’t come to any conclusions on. Distributing them through that network will continue. The heavy performance vehicles, whether be on-road or off-road vehicles, that still would go through that (Holden) network.

“Does it (HSV) become a sub-brand? I think those are all the discussions we have right now.”

https://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mel...258144007D45A2

[GO FURTHER]

In other words... Holden fans can't expect a two door RWD V8 coupe in the next few years

[Bossxr8]

Who didn't see this coming. GM don't have the numbers to build anything low volume in rhd. The exact reason the Camaro was never build in rhd for the current gen.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Who didn't see this coming. GM don't have the numbers to build anything low volume in rhd. The exact reason the Camaro was never build in rhd for the current gen.

They binned Zeta after just one generation and did a clean sheet design. Either shows how 'good' the 1 billion dollar baby was, or the actual contempt the yanks have for anything not made by them.

[lra]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Either shows how 'good' the 1 billion dollar baby was, or the actual contempt the yanks have for anything not made by them.

Definitely a case of yanks being shown how to do things, which never goes down well.
That's why they are the world champions in baseball, gridiron and professional wrestling. And action men like Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone to save the world.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by lra

Definitely a case of yanks being shown how to do things, which never goes down well.
That's why they are the world champions in baseball, gridiron and professional wrestling. And action men like Tom Cruise, Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris and Sly Stallone to save the world.

I'm not sure that's the case Ira. The Zeta platform was slated for use on a number of large GM models, most of which got cancelled due to model rationalisation as a result of the GFC. Part of the rationalisation meant platforms across different sizes have commonality and if memory serves, the Zeta platform only shared commonality with one GM/Cadillac platform which was deemed to big and/or heavy so out came the pencil and paper again to make a lighter, more compact and flexible platform.

Personally, I reckon GM were in a mess platform wise during the GFC era.

They also gave us Clint... ;-)

[Dave R]

They're obviously not going to develop something specifically for Australia. I tend to think they were just hoping for an Australian market Camaro (or Camaro with some stupid 'Holden' front end tacked on) and GM aren't having a bar of it. He talks about having to do well with their new line of pretend Holden products before pitching for a halo car, I don't understand that, sell a bunch of Astras and the business case for a RWD sports car improves? Holden needs a halo car regardless, once Commodore goes there's nothing holding the brand together, just a confused mish mash of low quality chev crap and high quality Opel stuff that drives the wrong wheels and is 2 cylinders shy of what Commodore buyers want in a Commodore. It'll get to the point where they do unveil their badge engineered sports car and nobody cares anyway because the Holden brand is irrelevant and they've already bought a Mustang or a Stinger.

[amiers]

R.I.P Holden and HSV.

[Chopped]

In short, Holden is dead if sales don't increase (which they won't). Funny that the Korean sourced Holdens wrecked what little reputation Holden had left YET the other two Korean brands are going very well in Aus and continue to climb.

I think if Ford can sell Mustang globally and have a case for RHD, then there is no reason why GM can't do the same with the Camaro (and possibly Corvette).

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Chopped

In short, Holden is dead if sales don't increase (which they won't). Funny that the Korean sourced Holdens wrecked what little reputation Holden had left YET the other two Korean brands are going very well in Aus and continue to climb.

I think if Ford can sell Mustang globally and have a case for RHD, then there is no reason why GM can't do the same with the Camaro (and possibly Corvette).

Camaro has nowhere near the global appeal of the Mustang. Not even close. Most of the world's population know what a Mustang is but you can't say that about the Camaro.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Camaro has nowhere near the global appeal of the Mustang. Not even close. Most of the world's population know what a Mustang is but you can't say that about the Camaro.

Hmm, maybe name wise Mustang is more well known but I bet just as few people would actually know what an unbadged Mustang is compared to an unbadged Camaro.

My point is that a muscular looking RWD V8 sports coupe will sell any where in the world.
The Mustang proves this.

Also considering the current Camaro is actually better than the current Mustang.

[DFB FGXR6]

The problem with the Camaro being sold in Australia is branding.

Holden Camaro just wont fly and GM wouldn't want it that way.

So then it either becomes a Camaro "by Holden" or Holden rebrands as Chevrolet.

This is where the GM model of several regional brands becomes difficult. And why the global Mustang case was relatively easy. A Ford is A Ford is A Ford.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Hmm, maybe name wise Mustang is more well known but I bet just as few people would actually know what an unbadged Mustang is compared to an unbadged Camaro.

My point is that a muscular looking RWD V8 sports coupe will sell any where in the world.
The Mustang proves this.

Also considering the current Camaro is actually better than the current Mustang.

I reckon not a lot of non car people know what a Camaro is outside of North America. But I think even a large amount of non car people know what a Mustang is, or have at least heard of it.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I reckon not a lot of non car people know what a Camaro is outside of North America. But I think even a large amount of non car people know what a Mustang is, or have at least heard of it.

This. Mustang (like the Corvette) is effectively a worldwide brand recognised in its own right and that's precisely why it doesn't have Ford blue oval badges. Camaro just doesn't have this.

GM needed to copy Ford. Back in the GFC days, they were arrogant enough to think they are to big to fall (those aren't my words) and continued on their own whilst Ford under Mullaly planned for the future with 'One Ford' which gave us the RHD Mustang. Holden are now leaving their loyal fans that actually purchase new cars high and dry and can't do a thing about it thanks to the lack of forethought at GM Detroit.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I reckon not a lot of non car people know what a Camaro is outside of North America. But I think even a large amount of non car people know what a Mustang is, or have at least heard of it.

100% people would be more familiar with Bumblebee from Transformers - not even knowing its a Camaro

[RANGEREST]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Camaro has nowhere near the global appeal of the Mustang. Not even close. Most of the world's population know what a Mustang is but you can't say that about the Camaro.

Except for the last 3 years, it's a hell of a lot closer than I would have guessed.
Seems the Challenger is taking sale from the Camaro?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by RANGEREST

Except for the last 3 years, it's a hell of a lot closer than I would have guessed.
Seems the Challenger is taking sale from the Camaro?
image image image image image image image image image

image image

These figures are for US sales only.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

These figures are for US sales only.

The European sales for 2016 were Mustang 15204 vs Camaro 607.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by RANGEREST

Except for the last 3 years, it's a hell of a lot closer than I would have guessed.
Seems the Challenger is taking sale from the Camaro?
image image image image image image image image image

image image

What do sales in North America have to do with global recognition like I was talking about? I was specifically referring to outside North America when I said Camaro does not have the recognition that Mustang has across the globe.

[Hawkeye84]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Camaro has nowhere near the global appeal of the Mustang. Not even close. Most of the world's population know what a Mustang is but you can't say that about the Camaro.

According to what? Where did you get this information from?

Quick search on Google Trends though, shows that since 2004 the Global search trends for Camaro vs Mustang have narrowed. And if you look at the regions globally, those countries who have searched for Mustang pretty much searched for Camaro...so the awareness/appeal is there.....globally

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F01j25p

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye84

According to what? Where did you get this information from?

Quick search on Google Trends though, shows that since 2004 the Global search trends for Camaro vs Mustang have narrowed. And if you look at the regions globally, those countries who have searched for Mustang pretty much searched for Camaro...so the awareness/appeal is there.....globally

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F01j25p

Yep lots of people in Syria, Iraq, and Brazil googling Camaro

The difference globally is about double too for Mustang.

[Hawkeye84]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Yep lots of people in Syria, Iraq, and Brazil googling Camaro

The difference globally is about double too for Mustang.

Yes, the same countries you mentioned above also ranked highly for Mustang...

So the global appeal is there then....isn't that what we were talking about?

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye84

According to what? Where did you get this information from?

Quick search on Google Trends though, shows that since 2004 the Global search trends for Camaro vs Mustang have narrowed. And if you look at the regions globally, those countries who have searched for Mustang pretty much searched for Camaro...so the awareness/appeal is there.....globally

https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...,%2Fm%2F01j25p

Any non car person will know mustang and little red corvette. I'm sure a few may be a bit iffy with Camaro and may even mistake it for Camry..

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Chopped

I think if Ford can sell Mustang globally and have a case for RHD, then there is no reason why GM can't do the same with the Camaro (and possibly Corvette).

My guess is Ford wanted mustang in UK and Japan, so australia was 'just lucky' to get it.

I think HSV will probably find more customers with hot Colorados than anything else in Holden's line up. Hot Hatch Astra?

[eb2fairmont]

It was never going to happen.
Just pure weasel word bs. Holden's marketing tack to get the young and trendy millenials is going to backfire.

These kinds don't want the same car their dads drove

[Fordman1]

The story sounds like management talk for "we had better start selling what we have or we'll be sold off or closed down"

[pmacc]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

The story sounds like management talk for "we had better start selling what we have or we'll be sold off or closed down"

Hit the nail right on the head

The big GM of old that had a presence all over the world will never be repeated and Detroit knows that. GM's future is a lean operation and with the EU operations getting offloaded and India shut down surely its Australia operations that has market access to at most 30ish million (include NZ) is not in its long term plans.

Without a major overhaul filled with decent SUV's, Utes and a hero car backed by a longish warranty the future of Holden is not looking so great

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by pmacc

Hit the nail right on the head

The big GM of old that had a presence all over the world will never be repeated and Detroit knows that. GM's future is a lean operation and with the EU operations getting offloaded and India shut down surely its Australia operations that has market access to at most 30ish million (include NZ) is not in its long term plans.

Without a major overhaul filled with decent SUV's, Utes and a hero car backed by a longish warranty the future of Holden is not looking so great

Yes basically they are saying : "We need to sell more cars to guarantee our future, only then will a V8 halo car be considered. At this stage there is no guarantee that our brand will be here in the long term".

I think there are very dark clouds ahead for Holden.

[CyberWasp]

They could just debadge the Camaro and not have Holden or Chev Badges on it. Just have Camaro written on the back or something. It really wouldn't be hard to work out.
There are no Ford Badges on the Mustang (I think....)

[GTP534]

^^^^ Hi Cyber,

Only 1 "FORD" on the car and it's on the front windscreen.