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19-01-2012, 04:05 PM | #1 | |||
Pity the fool
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Pretty damning if true, if this means they have to redesign the aircraft it may mean the unit cost will be pushed up to the point it will become another expensive, unviable defence project.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-carriers.html Quote:
http://aviationintel.com/2012/01/10/...-on-a-carrier/
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19-01-2012, 07:28 PM | #2 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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That particular version isnt what we (Aust) is buying.
We are buying the plane.. er plain runway bound "A" version. However there are some serious design flaws in all 3 versions which has been found out now, software, cracking, airflow issues (causing the cracking) in which a penagon report labelled as serious issues mid last year.... Not to mention is now at least 4yrs behind schedule and the price has doubled.
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19-01-2012, 09:10 PM | #3 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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sounds like the F111 all over again
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19-01-2012, 09:22 PM | #4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
The F111 suffered from wing failures which were traced back to poor quality metal (from memory) in the wing box. Also the air intakes were redesigned due to flow issues. Mind you, there was no "super" computers back then so it did pretty well. The F-35 however is a "paperless" aeroplane fully designed using computers... sadly they got several major things wrong. It is also the wrong plane for Australia as its really a CAS aeroplane and not really a fighter. Not to mention it has one engine... a very poor load capcity in the weapons bays (in the fighter role initially just 2 AIM-120 and just 2 Aim-9) and in the bomb role 2 large JDAM and 2 AIM-9 missiles... Oh but people say... it can carry weapons under the wings... goodo, then you have a plane which has a bigger radar return thus negating its so called "sealthy features". And better still is that it wont be cleared to carry drop tanks (EVER) so much for long range flying... itll need a lot of tanker support to go anywhere. Our $200million non-refundable "buy in" (previous governement) was a total crock too as it didnt pay for a single plane, but just to be a "partner" in some 3rd level development of maybe the ciggie lighter or a landing light....
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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19-01-2012, 10:34 PM | #5 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
True the F111 eventually turned out to be a good aircraft that did the job that it was built for very well. But it also was over budget & took longer to deliver than expected. Hopefully they can get the problems sorted & turn it int a good aircraft. |
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28-02-2013, 06:50 PM | #6 | ||||||||
No longer a Uni student..
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Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
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Its a MULTI-ROLE aircraft, no different to the F/A-18A+ it is replacing. Quote:
Its the first day of the conflict, you send the birds in on internal payloads to maximise stealth and take out enemy birds on the ground with precision ordinance. Day 10: Full external war loads for A-2-A and A-2-G. They will also have AEW&C support from wedgetail. Quote:
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19-01-2012, 09:43 PM | #7 | ||
Pity the fool
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Agreed, the whole program is a crock and we should pull out of it.
Better off buying something off the shelf already proven in service, like the Typhoon. These would complement the Super Hornets quite nicely IMO Oh and the thing about the single engine, this was the argument against choosing the F-16 over the F/A-18 back in the day, why the about face?
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19-01-2012, 10:24 PM | #8 | |||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Quote:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03..._nao_analysis/ Quote:
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19-01-2012, 10:56 PM | #9 | |||
Pity the fool
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Quote:
Even better if we could get our hands on the F-22, but US law won't allow it to be sold to a foreign power.
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19-01-2012, 11:06 PM | #10 | |||
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Its turning into a money pit.... the "solution" to some of the problems is to keep production going and sort it out later!!!! As stopping production now would be cost prohibitive.... However i can see soon that anymore delays and cost blowouts that the whole thing may be scrapped.. heres hoping!
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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19-01-2012, 09:48 PM | #11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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19-01-2012, 10:48 PM | #12 | |||
Afterburner + skids =
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Fact remains that it's just the wrong plane for our country, but the Yanks wouldn't sell us the right plane (F22).
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19-01-2012, 10:58 PM | #13 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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They should've played Battlefield 3 before they signed anything. Everybody knows that an Su will eat an F-35 for breakfast.
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20-01-2012, 05:52 PM | #14 | |||
Geelong FC 07, 09 & 2011
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I personally think the russian 4.5 and 5th gen fighter/multi role aircraft would be better aircraft to acquire. Won't happen though.
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20-01-2012, 06:04 PM | #15 | |||
Afterburner + skids =
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Politically and practically. Say goodbye to parts commonality with the US, along with their pilot/personnel exchange program. Refueling from NATO tankers would be out of the question as well - plus a whole bunch of other stuff.
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20-01-2012, 12:52 AM | #16 | ||
Banned
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we should just build our own we did it with submarines we couldnt build it worse then there doing at present hahaha
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20-01-2012, 02:50 PM | #17 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Now if our closest bestest friends the Americans had let us buy the off-the-shelf F22 Raptor, there'd be no problem...but there's a standing instruction that it isn't to be sold to any foreign power...even friends and allies.
Some odd decisions going on lately with defence...they seem to be dazzled by anything new and shiny. Take the F111...it was replaced by a plane (the F18 Super Hornet) that can't fly as far, as fast, as high, as low (terrain following radar), or carry the same bomb load as the old plane could...yep...makes perfect sense... Sometimes it's better to keep the old car you have in the shed and keep spending a few dollars keeping it on the road than to go to the latest new model that isn't as good... |
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20-01-2012, 05:30 PM | #18 | |||
See..Everybody Loves Ford
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20-01-2012, 10:26 PM | #19 | |||
Peter Car
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Afghanis using Stingers against US helicopters for example. I guess its easier to stop supplying weapons to allies who may become potential enemies than it is to not start wars with them in the first place. |
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20-01-2012, 05:44 PM | #20 | |||
Pity the fool
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Quote:
Actually I was thinking about the subs the other day, we should invest in unmanned submarines because we can't even muster enough crews for the 6 we have now, let alone 12 future subs that Labor wants. A fleet of 4 manned and 6 unmanned subs would work well.
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20-01-2012, 06:28 PM | #21 | ||
3 Pedals R Better Than 2
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Location: Newcastle
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Maverick.....I mean Goose!!....that was a $300M initial buy-in to be part of the JSF development phase.
I thought the nose gear was going to fold up sideways on the video @ 2:57! Looks rather flimsy......there'll be a redesign on that in 6 months! 2011G6E....although the F-111 is rather nostalgic and does cool dump and burns, the Super Hornet would run rings around it in almost every area, except in a 50 mile drag race over the salt flats. Remember, more bombs doesn't necessarily mean more targets destroyed and increased lethality. Whist the F-111 was a workhorse WRT load capacity, you also need to consider the type of weapons being carried. The Super Hornet has much better accuracy and even stand-off capability with the weapons it carries compared to the F-111. The only reason it had to go into a target area low and fast is because back in the 70's they never had the weapons technology we have today.....so you had to go and hand deliver your bombs on the front door step, wilst avoiding some big supersonic pointy phone poles - hopefully the low and fast bit meant you didn't get shot at. These days with GPS guided (glide) stand-off weapons, the game has changed. The F-111 also couldn't fight its way into or out of a wet paper bag. Depending on the air threat, it might need someone holding it's hand. ie: it wasn't very multi-role......but it'd be OK going up against some 3rd world country 2000 miles away against a few Cessnas. The decision to go 2 engines on the JSF simply boils down to dollars but not much sense to pardon the pun!! Engineers and bean counters vs a pilot wanting some level of redundancy incase one engine decides to take a rest. I had a chat a few years back with some of the Lockheed Martin JSF team.....and they simply based the single engine decision on statistics based on other single engine aircraft such as the F-16. A jet with two engines obviously costs more and losing an entire jet due to engine failure is expensive too....but when they weighed up the cost over the life of type of the aircraft.....ie: initial cost, ongoing maintenance etc of a twin eng jet say over 30+ years compared to losing a few jets over that time....statistically, after looking at the reliability they expect - it's more cost effective to accept a few airframe losses than supply and maintain the fleet for 3+ decades. Should just get the Sea Sprites back and strap on some new radars and amraams.....and a door gun!! |
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20-01-2012, 08:10 PM | #22 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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At least the Hornet and F-111 would/ should make it back to land on one engine if something goes pear shaped. The Super Hornets were all ferried from the USA, I daresay the F-35 when its finnally ready for delivery will be put in a C-17 and flown here. Could you imagine loosing $110million or so because it ditched in the pacific on a ferry flight?. (And again this aircraft WONT be cleared to fly with drop tanks). The designers sadly much like management is only interested in making money and to squeeze as much into a small airframe as possible. Sadly this sort of aircraft wont be as "buyable" as the F-16 was (some 26 nations use the little F-16) because of its extreme high cost and expensive avionics. Its also impossible to repair this type of aircraft quickly should it be damaged in combat. Not to mention a senate inquiry shouldve been held on the whole process of how we (Australia) "decided" to buy into this program. The F-35 was NEVER offered to Australia when the RAAF was running the AIR2000 (?)back in the 1990s. There was 4 aircraft on the short list and the F-35 at that time was still in the desing stage and a prototype wasnt even built when we bought into the program. The whole selection process was dumped without warning and we decided on the F-35.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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20-01-2012, 09:11 PM | #23 | |||
Afterburner + skids =
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Speed Kills. So buy an AU XR8 and live forever. Oo\===/oO |
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20-01-2012, 10:35 PM | #24 | ||
Afterburner + skids =
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Iran with their F14's.
Not that any of them would be airworthy.
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Speed Kills. So buy an AU XR8 and live forever. Oo\===/oO |
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20-01-2012, 10:38 PM | #25 | ||
Banned
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Consider the 300 million as the cost of protection by our US "friends" for a few nanoseconds.
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20-01-2012, 10:52 PM | #26 | ||
See..Everybody Loves Ford
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I guess one good thing to come from being part of the JSF buy in is it seems some of the local industry have picked up contracts for production. There's an engineering company here in Brisbane machining components for JSF bomb racks.
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20-01-2012, 11:34 PM | #27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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But is the end cost worth it? As is being said the f-35 is turning into a money pit for the US government and has failed to meet expectations. The UK is considering dumping the F-35 as well as Australia is reconsidering how many we buy. We have ordered 14 (a planned 80 to 100 though nothing ever confirmed). In the end in order to buy the projected 100 or so at an estimated $130million EACH (which the price already doubled and still climbing) plus our no-refundable 200..er 300million, it will cost the aussie tax payer over $14billion...... oh but i hear people say we must have the bset?! Clearly it isnt the best... and certianly DMO, Defence and the Australian Gov in general has shown us how poorly some of the decisions have been over the decades when it comes down to buying stuff for defence.... Our Subs, the Seaprite debarcle ($700million or so down the drain for something which NEVER entered service fully), 2nd hand refurbished main battle tanks (been better off with smaller one but hey) which needed new trucks and trailers (no one thought of that when we bought them), body armour which was no good, rusty old 2nd hand ships, landing craft sitting at Townsville which are unusuable, shoes which fall apart.... to mention a few Sorry but a few jobs in Brisbane hardly cuts the mustard when billions are wasted
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20-01-2012, 11:52 PM | #28 | |||
See..Everybody Loves Ford
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21-01-2012, 12:03 AM | #29 | |||
Pity the fool
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica | 1970 XW Falcon | 1971 XY Fairmont | 1973 ZG Fairlane | 1986 XF Falcon panel van | 1987 XFII Falcon S-Pack | 1988 XF Falcon GLS ute | 1993 EBII Fairmont V8 | 1996 XG Falcon ute | 2000 AU Falcon wagon | 2004 BA Falcon XT | 2012 SZ Territory Titanium AWD Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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24-01-2012, 04:51 AM | #30 | |||
Donating Member
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Perhaps a 2nd had leopard 2 or Challenger 2 should have been purchased out of "old stock" for twice the price ? |
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