Mondeo 2011 Turbo Diesel lack of power

[JustBill]

Ive searched threads for an answer to my problem but no success. Sorry if this is a repetitive one.

Just bought this 2011 Mondeo Turbo Diesel automatic. 170,000 with service history since leaving the factory. I have never driven one before this so not sure if this is normal for a Diesel Mondeo.

Takes time to reach speeds and even longer in slight climbs. Example, standing start take off i will hit 60km in roughly 100 meters. Very dangerous turning into traffic when finding a gap. Another example while in a minor climb is the exit ramp out of my town merging onto the hwy has a climb not that steep..... but Takes me almost 1000 meters in distance to reach 100km speed and only doing around 60km at the point of merge. I'ts as if i'm towing a truck behind. Rev gage shows 2500-3500 rpm in-between gear change (depending on the slope of the road).

No Engine lights appear. No codes showing when plugged in. Turbo tested and it's fine.

PS: Another strange happening is i can feel the gear change kick down when approaching a intersection. I feel the jerk at around 40-35km speed. It's as if it shifts down to 2nd or 1st to early. Not sure if this is also normal for a power shift

Anyone with an idea? or is this gutless acceleration normal for a Mondeo

[NZ XR6]

No, that's not normal, it is a very grunty engine and pulls hard from just over 1500 rpm.

I'm not sure what could cause a loss of power like that and not generate a code. Loss of boost is one possibility, but that should result in at least one code.

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[AlanM]

Some possibilities come to mind. The fuel filter or air filter might need replacing. A service "history" doesn't actually mean any real services were carried out, just that they were billed for.

Possibly a faulty injector. Maybe perform a leak back test. You could try some injector cleaner too.

There could be some restriction in the exhaust. A blocked DPF should throw codes, but there could possibly be some physical damage to the exhaust.

Someone who knows a lot more about these cars than me suggested that the intercooler could be partially blocked with oil from the PCV system.

It should definitely rev out past 3500rpm, going close to redline.

I guess it's possible the inlet manifold is gunged up with EGR soot combined the PCV oil. That wouldn't throw any codes AFAIK.

Re the transmission: I would definitely look at changing the oil and external filter. DIY is best, there's videos on YouTube on how to do it. If you don't want to DIY try to find a transmission place with a clue about these cars. (There aren't many)

[AlanM]

Another thought, it could simply be the throttle position sensor.

A possible way to check if it's this would be to use the cruise control to accelerate. If you're going about 40kmh on cruise, and press and hold the + button, the car will normally accelerate pretty fast. If it does, then the throttle pedal sensor could be the problem.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Another thought, it could simply be the throttle position sensor.

A possible way to check if it's this would be to use the cruise control to accelerate. If you're going about 40kmh on cruise, and press and hold the + button, the car will normally accelerate pretty fast. If it does, then the throttle pedal sensor could be the problem.

I will give it a try thanks.
Took it to a mechanic who had it for 2 days and looked over it. They were 100% certain the injector seals is the cause and need replacement. So i did that myself. But no change, still drives the same.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Some possibilities come to mind. The fuel filter or air filter might need replacing. A service "history" doesn't actually mean any real services were carried out, just that they were billed for.

Possibly a faulty injector. Maybe perform a leak back test. You could try some injector cleaner too.

There could be some restriction in the exhaust. A blocked DPF should throw codes, but there could possibly be some physical damage to the exhaust.

Someone who knows a lot more about these cars than me suggested that the intercooler could be partially blocked with oil from the PCV system.

It should definitely rev out past 3500rpm, going close to redline.

I guess it's possible the inlet manifold is gunged up with EGR soot combined the PCV oil. That wouldn't throw any codes AFAIK.

Re the transmission: I would definitely look at changing the oil and external filter. DIY is best, there's videos on YouTube on how to do it. If you don't want to DIY try to find a transmission place with a clue about these cars. (There aren't many)

My local mechanic had the car for 2 days and went over it. Diagnosis: Turbo works, no air leaks, zero codes, Auto fine, 100% certain injector seals need replacing.

I replaced them and now i can say it's 100% certain wasn't the problem as it drives exactly the same.

[Citroënbender]

Lack of meaningful boost, just need to find out why.

[Citroënbender]

A further note, I hadn’t taken in before today, that Alan Howatt (YT Mondeo taxi expert cited in other posts) has permanently upped stumps and moved to a Filipino village with his better half. He might well be up for some affordable paid consultation - is a pretty clued up character. Or someone could just be cheeky and invite him to join the forum!

[AlanM]

Originally Posted by JustBill

My local mechanic had the car for 2 days and went over it. Diagnosis: Turbo works, no air leaks, zero codes, Auto fine, 100% certain injector seals need replacing.

I replaced them and now i can say it's 100% certain wasn't the problem as it drives exactly the same.

Yeah I had a car with leaky injector seals (the copper washers) and it drove fine apart from a burnt smell at times.

That wasn't what I meant by the leak back test though. That's where the internal seals on an injector are failing and too much of the fuel pressure is being lost down the leak back line.

There are other things that are easier to check first though. The leak back test requires a little investment in some parts.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by AlanM

Yeah I had a car with leaky injector seals (the copper washers) and it drove fine apart from a burnt smell at times.

That wasn't what I meant by the leak back test though. That's where the internal seals on an injector are failing and too much of the fuel pressure is being lost down the leak back line.

There are other things that are easier to check first though. The leak back test requires a little investment in some parts.

Roger that.

I did take the injectors for testing and just got them back yesterday after one mechanic felt certain that the injectors were faulty. Results came back injectors are fine. They were cleaned up new copper washes fitted and placed back in the car, No change to the power. This is becoming Trial and Error and becoming expensive. I'm baffled why 3 different mechanics physically inspected it and none can solve the issue.

PS: A symptom i haven't mentioned yet,,,,, when accelerating the rev gauge pulsates around 50-100 rpms. it pulsates up/down every 1 second looking at my watch. When using cruise control driving on level ground (no acceleration needed) rev gauge is steady. You can't hear the revs nor feel it, it's that minor.

And still no codes nor engine light popping up.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

No, that's not normal, it is a very grunty engine and pulls hard from just over 1500 rpm.

I'm not sure what could cause a loss of power like that and not generate a code. Loss of boost is one possibility, but that should result in at least one code.

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

My LV TDCI Focus blew it's intercooler hose off and no codes, certainly worth checking for boost leaks, they're also common for cracking intake pipe into the turbo at the flange.

I reckon you have a leak somewhere in the induction pipework post turbo, or a hole in the intercooler.

The ECU is smart enough to limit fuel in the case of not enough air to prevent it from belching out black smoke, but not cluey enough to throw codes for it.

Same engine as my old Focus, same engine management system.

Mine also blew injector seals, and also it's injectors return line, all it did was leak diesel over itself, didn't cause any issues with performance.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My LV TDCI Focus blew it's intercooler hose off and no codes, certainly worth checking for boost leaks, they're also common for cracking intake pipe into the turbo at the flange.

I reckon you have a leak somewhere in the induction pipework post turbo, or a hole in the intercooler.

The ECU is smart enough to limit fuel in the case of not enough air to prevent it from belching out black smoke, but not cluey enough to throw codes for it.

Same engine as my old Focus, same engine management system.

Mine also blew injector seals, and also it's injectors return line, all it did was leak diesel over itself, didn't cause any issues with performance.

I'm going to visit a third mechanic in coming days. Thanks for your thoughts and i will mention it to him. The ECU restricting fuel due to a air leak makes sense why i can't get any grunt.

Also, i discovered something else in the engine bay. On the fire wall, there seems to be a splatter of very light brown clay like dirt. Could be a pipe or hose of some sort at the turbo side of the engine. I don't think driving over a muddy puddle caused this due to the drip cover under the car. The first mechanic said he checked all the hoses and pipes leading in and out of the turbo and didn't identify a issue. He pulled the exhaust back a bit and seen the turbo working. I'm starting to think now..... "Or did he check?"

[JustBill]

Just got a third opinion. Worse news and that the Powershift transmission is gone which is why its powerless due to slipping. Revs to 3000+ meaning engine is fantastic and nothing wrong with the power coming from this turbo diesel. I'm gutted, this car was purchased privately for my son which i picked 5 weeks ago using my sons money that he saved, who is due to come back from overseas soon. I've let him down. What a useless father i am.

[AlanM]

If it's not shuddering or clunking the transmission may just need new oil. These things need hydraulic pressure to make the clutches engage. If the oil is bad you can get excessive slipping.

There's plenty of videos on YouTube on doing the oil change. It's not as straightforward as most, but it's not hard either. Do the external filter too. Supercheap get them in pretty quick. Their part number is WTF4. Easy to remember!

Once you've done the oil change it might be worth doing a clutch relearn on Forscan.

[simon varley]

are those two sensors even near the intake? sorry, I can't remember the engine well enough. Did you disconnect them when you stripped it down?

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by simon varley

are those two sensors even near the intake? sorry, I can't remember the engine well enough. Did you disconnect them when you stripped it down?

Yes, the cam sensor sits on top of the engine and I had to remove it inorder to remove the intake manifold (plastic cover)

[aussiblue]

that Alan Howatt (YT Mondeo taxi expert cited in other posts) has permanently upped stumps and moved to a Filipino village with his better half.

Not exactly; he is there with his son Tyler and living with the Filipino lady, Ken, he met online. He's been their just over year now but he still hasn't said it's permanent. As I have some Filipino family (with my English wife I have two adopted sons from the Phillipines) I have been watching his adventures there with interest and occasionally exchange onlines messages with him; WA sharing the same time zone as the Philippines also helps and I was there in April/May again visiting Manila, El Nido, Puerto Princesa Palawan. But yes, he still occasionally mentions his interest in Mondeos and still answers related question online e.g.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtBMQUDi8eo&t=4398s

[aussiblue]

with the Filipino lady, Ken, he met online.

Oops that should "Khen".

[Franco Cozzo]

Its low but its also not low enough to not fire the injectors, works out to be circa 650 BAR (needs 200 BAR to open injectors).

I'm assuming you cleared all the codes and its come back again?

Also probably going to sound silly and coincidental, when was the last time the fuel filter was changed?

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its low but its also not low enough to not fire the injectors, works out to be circa 650 BAR (needs 200 BAR to open injectors).

I'm assuming you cleared all the codes and its come back again?

Also probably going to sound silly and coincidental, when was the last time the fuel filter was changed?

Yes i clear the codes and it keeps coming back. Though no engine light.

I've only had the car 6 weeks. It came with a full service history (but doesn't specify what was done as part of these services)

What i have done so far so sought out the lack of power and now non start:
A) Test and clean the injectors and add new seals to injectors
B) change transmission fluid and filter
C) New intake manifold gaskets
D) Decarbed the engine intake ports and manifold using a Diesel engine intake Decarb fluid (check photos below and see how bad they were). The injectors were out at the time, i would have had the decarb fluid going in the injector ports, not sure if that was a good idea and caused some contamination or damage.
E) Change engine oil and filter.






PS: After posting this i ran the scan again and the P0087 Code: Fuel Rail/System Pressure Too Low disappeared on it's own overnight.
But still won't start.and no codes or dashboard warning lights.

[Citroënbender]

Will it start, then run on a puff of ether or a splash of petrol?

(Not something you should do often!)

At this point verify the timing as well, I think the diesel is as for the PSA 2 litre petrol and has a flywheel pinning hole to its rear. Be careful not to wind the motor backwards if you miss the timing point - go around twice more.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Will it start, then run on a puff of ether or a splash of petrol?

(Not something you should do often!)

At this point verify the timing as well, I think the diesel is as for the PSA 2 litre petrol and has a flywheel pinning hole to its rear. Be careful not to wind the motor backwards if you miss the timing point - go around twice more.

No, turns over but wont start.

Regarding the timing, it was fine before i started working on the intake manifold. i can't see how the intake manifold and injector removable can offset the timing. If it is a timing chain issue, then it's an amazing coincidence a bad chain causing to mess up the timing on the next start after. But hey..... those odds of such a coincidence to happen to me is likely. I am that cursed.

By the way, if timing was off, surely i would get a number of codes. But i will check it out anyway and thanks for your tips.

[Citroënbender]

Slight mistiming generally gives a cam sensor fault, leading the novice to replace that sensor.

Testing for firing with another fuel (or even a splash of diesel into the intake) is a good way to see if the mechanical aspects of a motor are sound.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

Yes i clear the codes and it keeps coming back. Though no engine light.

I've only had the car 6 weeks. It came with a full service history (but doesn't specify what was done as part of these services)

What i have done so far so sought out the lack of power and now non start:
A) Test and clean the injectors and add new seals to injectors
B) change transmission fluid and filter
C) New intake manifold gaskets
D) Decarbed the engine intake ports and manifold using a Diesel engine intake Decarb fluid (check photos below and see how bad they were). The injectors were out at the time, i would have had the decarb fluid going in the injector ports, not sure if that was a good idea and caused some contamination or damage.
E) Change engine oil and filter.


image
image


PS: After posting this i ran the scan again and the P0087 Code: Fuel Rail/System Pressure Too Low disappeared on it's own overnight.
But still won't start.and no codes or dashboard warning lights.

Mine wouldn't start at all if the battery was less than good, it'd turn over and never fire, even with jumper leads on it. Or eventually on leads with about 2 minutes worth of cranking, and then it eventually blew a huge black cloud out the exhaust and ran like a bag of dicks than calmed down - it was a picky piece of shit with batteries.

It also used to kill them every 12 months until I MacGyvered in a massive DIN85L sized battery.

You got a battery charger? Put it on the car overnight and then try start in the morning and see how you go.

Also check condition of main earth cable, on the Focus its on the passenger side shock tower, unsure on Mondeo but could be similar as they share a platform.

[JustBill]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Mine wouldn't start at all if the battery was less than good, it'd turn over and never fire, even with jumper leads on it. Or eventually on leads with about 2 minutes worth of cranking, and then it eventually blew a huge black cloud out the exhaust and ran like a bag of dicks than calmed down - it was a picky piece of shit with batteries.

It also used to kill them every 12 months until I MacGyvered in a massive DIN85L sized battery.

You got a battery charger? Put it on the car overnight and then try start in the morning and see how you go.

Also check condition of main earth cable, on the Focus its on the passenger side shock tower, unsure on Mondeo but could be similar as they share a platform.

I did put it to charge overnight. Though admittedly my battery doesn't hold charge but usually enough to get it started. So eventually i will replace it with a new one. I'm just concerned money being spent is ticking over with lightning speed. These Mondeo batteries are not cheap $250 - $350 then only to scrap the whole car for $350 if the car has major problem where it's not worth repairing.

I'm starting to believe i have a timing issue which i'm going to need a new belt. **** me how did i get myself in this mess.

Just learnt from Alan Howatt in one of his videos, that the high pressure fuel pump needs to ne timed also with the power train timing. If the timing is out with the fuel pump you don't get the injector spray in sinc. Maybe that was the original cause of loss in power.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by JustBill

I did put it to charge overnight. Though admittedly my battery doesn't hold charge but usually enough to get it started. So eventually i will replace it with a new one. I'm just concerned money being spent is ticking over with lightning speed. These Mondeo batteries are not cheap $250 - $350 then only to scrap the whole car for $350 if the car has major problem where it's not worth repairing.

I'm starting to believe i have a timing issue which i'm going to need a new belt. **** me how did i get myself in this mess.

Just learnt from Alan Howatt in one of his videos, that the high pressure fuel pump needs to ne timed also with the power train timing. If the timing is out with the fuel pump you don't get the injector spray in sinc. Maybe that was the original cause of loss in power.

When they did the timing belt on mine, the balancer pulley bolt come out a few threads and then snapped in the crankshaft with a nice clean shear

They needed to get some specialist in to get the snapped thread out of the crankshaft, which took him all day.

Be prepared for a fun* time

*will not be the usual definition of fun

If you got good quality jumper leads, get another car onto it, but go to the negative terminal on the Mondeo, not the Mondeo body earth as its not big enough to get enough current through to turn over diesel engine fast enough to get it to fire.

If its like the Focus its a pain in the *** because the negative terminal sits under the wiper cowl, might need to take off the wiper cowl to get enough clearance.

How good are European cars?

[NZ XR6]

I've just caught up with this thread... Hope you get it sorted. Does the service history show whether the cambelt has been replaced recently?

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[JustBill]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

I've just caught up with this thread... Hope you get it sorted. Does the service history show whether the cambelt has been replaced recently?

Sent from my SM-S906E using Tapatalk

I changed it few days ago. The previous one looked ok but changed it anyway since i had everything opened. Or did you mean the cam chain? If that's what you meant, i popped open the intake cover enough to expose the chain. Spun the cam around and the chain looked tight and intact.

I've sorted the timing and closed it all up then crossed my fingers. Still won't start. So i've taken it to a fourth mechanic. Now he tells me something completely different from the other 3. It's the worst case off all. He said the engine is knackered. He said no compression when turning over. Although, i'm no mechanic but i don't believe him. Because without he giving me specifics why the engine is gone, A) the crank wheel spins therefore isn't seized, B) When the cam wheel spins you can hear the suction sound i assume the piston make and i can feel the tightness then release together with the suction sound when spun at particular points.

If he is right..... Then i hope its just the rockers are damaged because i'm confident in changing them myself. Apparently the engines on these Mondeo's are designed for the rockers to give way so the pistons survive if a timing belts or chain snaps.

This has became a nightmare now. I've gone so far (New timing belt + tensioner, Injector seals, intake seals and intake holes cleaned, new transmission fluid and filter, new engine oil and filter, injectors tested and cleaned, new leek off pipe) and am stuffed to know if i should just stop and scrap it or keep fighting.

I'm interested to know if my description as to why i feel the engine is fine and that i could be right or wrong. Big job getting to the rockers then only to find out nothing wrong with the rockers and tappets.

[NZ XR6]

I was trying to understand how the timing could be that far out and thought perhaps the cambelt had been changed and the timing not set properly?

No compression sounds terminal though.



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[goz007]

When u first described how far out the cam gear was I wondered if a valve had meet with a piston,if so as u say I'm also lead to believe that the rockers are the weak link(but that's just hear say on my behalf as I have no concrete evidence to support it) so u may well have a few broken rocker arms, so it's either pull the rocker cover & check or pull the glow plugs(or injectors-depending on the tool & give it a compression check-have any of these so called mechanics given it a compression check or cylinder leak down check?....if not I'd be asking how they came to all these wonderful diagnosis without knowing the true health of the engine & each & every cylinder in that engine.....) also be aware that a diesel will produce a lot more compression than a petrol ,so u need a tool for a diesel(which will also have the relevant adapters be it injector or glow plugs).....not sure were u are but if u are in Sydney I can load u a compression test kit for a diesel.....but also as suggested, pull the air intake off at the manifold & give it a sniff of starter aid & see what it does(don't use that crap start u bastard or aero start-they are the best way to damage an engine....yes seen it many times, all i use is inox or wd40 its flammable enough to induce starting without causing damage) but in all reality your best choice is pull the rocker cover & take a look, if still not 100% have someone wind the engine by hand while u watch the valve train..... I wouldn't give up I don't think u are far off getting this car going..