Oil Pump Gears / Un-Opened ??

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 07:07 PM

I have created this poll to get some feed back on the use of billet oil pump gears in the Boss 260/290's.

As some of you are aware, there has been numerous failures of the standard gears. Some motors have had relatively minor damage if shut down quicky, some others have been completely stuffed.

The LS1 brigade get a concession in their un-opened motors to run better valve springs, which imo is definatly a performance gain, not a reliability issue.

I suggest that there be a concession with the Boss 260/290 motors, that allows them to run billet oil pump gears and still be classed as un-opened.

Those that probably disagree, either dont own a modified "bolt on" Boss or have plenty of $$$$ to spend when their gears finally let go.

LUXO_8 · 30-03-2006, 07:10 PM

i think thats a fair call.... as you said its not a performance gain..... just a stronger oil pump gear....

further on this, the billet gears are fitted in the factory repairs yes? so therefor it should be classified as a factory part.......if its a part that ford themselves are fitting to fix the issue

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MADNC_8

i think thats a fair call.... as you said its not a performance gain..... just a stronger oil pump gear....

further on this, the billet gears are fitted in the factory repairs yes? so therefor it should be classified as a factory part.......if its a part that ford themselves are fitting to fix the issue

Ford have replaced some motors under warranty, with a new factory motor.
Other people have copped it on the chin with their warranty voided, because of modifications.

LUXO_8 · 30-03-2006, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Ford have replaced some motors under warranty, with a new factory motor.
Other people have copped it on the chin with their warranty voided, because of modifications.

ah ok.....damn...
you'd think ford would realise it could be so much cheaper and better repaired by fitting the gears straight out wouldnt you...

**Chris** · 30-03-2006, 07:30 PM

this is easy,

TO PUT VALVE SPRINGS IN A MOTOR, IT NEEDS TO BE OPENED.

TO PUT OIL PUMP GEARS IN A MOTOR IT NEEDS TO BE OPENED.

simple.

If people are going to pull chains off a boss to do a pump, then the cam timing requires re-doing, but it doesn't matter, opened is opened.

If this thread goes down the path of us following the LS1 crowd, then im putting my "unopened" 260 back in the ute and i'll kill the LS1 and Ford records.

Childish. opened is opened, no matter how you play it, notwithstanding the fact that timing adjustments can be made on a boss when the oil pump is off.

Moving cams around alters valetrain events, as does changing valvesprings in an LS1. Once the chains are loosened, the timing events are altered, who will be policing this??

What is your stance Cam??

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

What is your stance Cam??

Its a touchy subject Chris, and one that requires honesty from all parties that are involved in racing.

I agree with what you are saying in principal, but as you know it is a real problem with these motors, and speaking for myself, i cannot afford for a motor to destroy itself, because of inferior oil pump gears !

I am lead to believe that the cam timing should not alter with the replacement of these gears, unless vernier gears are used or the installer has incorrectly re-assembled the timing chain assembly, or altered the cam position by dubious means.

G&D PERFORMANCE · 30-03-2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

this is easy,

TO PUT VALVE SPRINGS IN A MOTOR, IT NEEDS TO BE OPENED.

TO PUT OIL PUMP GEARS IN A MOTOR IT NEEDS TO BE OPENED.

simple.

If people are going to pull chains off a boss to do a pump, then the cam timing requires re-doing, but it doesn't matter, opened is opened.

If this thread goes down the path of us following the LS1 crowd, then im putting my "unopened" 260 back in the ute and i'll kill the LS1 and Ford records.

Childish. opened is opened, no matter how you play it, notwithstanding the fact that timing adjustments can be made on a boss when the oil pump is off.

Moving cams around alters valetrain events, as does changing valvesprings in an LS1. Once the chains are loosened, the timing events are altered, who will be policing this??

What is your stance Cam??

I understand what your saying Chris but I do remember you once mentioned to me during the period when you were running your unopened 260 BOSS about how you had modified the oil pump gears to make them live.Is this also classed as unopened?

Glenn

HEMI POWER · 30-03-2006, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

I have created this poll to get some feed back on the use of billet oil pump gears in the Boss 260/290's.

As some of you are aware, there has been numerous failures of the standard gears. Some motors have had relatively minor damage if shut down quicky, some others have been completely stuffed.

The LS1 brigade get a concession in their un-opened motors to run better valve springs, which imo is definatly a performance gain, not a reliability issue.

I suggest that there be a concession with the Boss 260/290 motors, that allows them to run billet oil pump gears and still be classed as un-opened.

Those that probably disagree, either dont own a modified "bolt on" Boss or have plenty of $$$$ to spend when their gears finally let go.

I suppose it's like changing the tensioners.Improving a product for durability isn't really going to break a world record.I would assume it doesn't apply

SpoolMan · 30-03-2006, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPVGT

I suppose it's like changing the tensioners.Improving a product for durability isn't really going to break a world record.I would assume it doesn't apply

I agree with Alex, it's a concession thats needed as the gears hardly rate in a standard Boss.
At some stage everyone well need to change them.

**Chris** · 30-03-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

I agree with Alex, it's a concession thats needed as the gears hardly rate in a standard Boss.
At some stage everyone well need to change them.

Disagree Mark, the timing is altered from factory once the chains are loosened.

opened - check it out in the dictionary guys........

hot460 · 30-03-2006, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

I agree with Alex, it's a concession thats needed as the gears hardly rate in a standard Boss.
At some stage everyone well need to change them.

Opened is Opened!
My car has mods and has done 200,000klms in just over 2years.
180 passes down the track and more hrs on the dyno than I want to remember. Still no oil pump gears,(touch wood) and definatly unopened.

We really dont need to go down the same track as the LS1 brigade and make it all too obscure.

:
Keep it simple. Change pump gears= Opened
Bolt ons only= unopened

**Chris** · 30-03-2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Those that probably disagree, either dont own a modified "bolt on" Boss or have plenty of $$$$ to spend when their gears finally let go.

Its been said before - modify at your own peril. You can put gears in it, just dont call it unopened.

Casper · 30-03-2006, 07:37 PM

I got to agree with Chris on this. I dont have a BA so I have nothing to gain or lose here, no motive but logic. Opened is opened. If it touches engine oil.. its open. I think the LS1 valve spring agreement is a joke personally. Something they have all convinced themselves isnt really a "real" mod. Guess what.. non factory is non factory. Open is open.

SpoolMan · 30-03-2006, 07:43 PM

No one is policing it, so just do what you like call it want you want.
Just Go Hard Go Fast..
In The end its up to each person to say whats done to there car if they wish.

XA-Coupe · 30-03-2006, 07:47 PM

I'm in a bind .. there is absolutely no performance gained by doing it .. but it definitely is opened.

G&D PERFORMANCE · 30-03-2006, 08:06 PM

Replacing a rocker cover gasket is OPENED.

Rectification of faulty timing chain tensioners by a ford service technician is OPENED.

Removing camshaft dowels & moving cams around & tightening the hell out of the camshaft bolts is OPENED.

Where does it end.I agree this oil pump gear saga is a can of worms but how many engine have to be blown up before we wake up to the fact that something has to be done.These engines aren't cheap & cost at least $10,000 - $12000 second hand with Fords retail being set at $14950.

The LS1 valvespring failure issue is a common one,even holden replace many under warranty.They lose tension very early in their life cycle & create excessive valve float hence a loss in power that is quite evident on the dyno.This is a different issue though & I think the BOSS oil pump gear issue has far more merrit.

I for one think that the whole bolt on/stock internal scene is a joke until we see some real scrutineering.I'd like to see it happen,maybe we can pay an independant party to do it for us.Relying on someones honesty & integrity is not good enough.

Glenn

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 07:52 PM

OK guys, Im not stirring ИИИИИ, but will we class cars that have had timing chain tensioners replaced under warranty as "Opened" ?????

Technically speaking they have been !

SpoolMan · 30-03-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

OK guys, Im not stirring ИИИИИ, but will we class cars that have had timing chain tensioners replaced under warranty as "Opened" ?????

Technically speaking they have been !

Mine were changed under warranty because there use were insufficient for my Boss motor.
So maybe your oil pump gears are in the same boat, is this what you are saying Cam?

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

Mine were changed under warranty because there use were insufficient for my Boss motor.
So maybe your oil pump gears are in the same boat, is this what you are saying Cam?

I think that it is a matter of time before they break, i have all the bolt on mods and i want to sleep well, knowing that they wont give me grief.

svo347 · 30-03-2006, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMS290

I think that it is a matter of time before they break, i have all the bolt on mods and i want to sleep well, knowing that they wont give me grief.

Well since you have modified your ford, wouldnt you count on the gears being replaced at your own expense?

CAMS290 · 30-03-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by svo347

Well since you have modified your ford, wouldnt you count on the gears being replaced at your own expense?

Yes most definatly, i have just changed my under drives for the correct 5.4 type, as i had the early ones on.

The billet gears are the best insurance imo.

Casper · 30-03-2006, 08:07 PM

I guess I see it as where do you draw the line? Its too open to "creep" where one thing, then another, then another is accepted as "unopened" still.

G&D PERFORMANCE · 30-03-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

I guess I see it as where do you draw the line? Its too open to "creep" where one thing, then another, then another is accepted as "unopened" still.

Agreed but the BOSS oil pump gear issue is such a stand out fault though that I believe it should be allowed & nothing else.

All i'm worried about is the fact that if the gears aren't allowed then the average punter out there won't get the opportunity to have a go at the records that have been set due to fear of having to sell their house to buy new engine.

The other issue boils down to trust,if you allow the use of the gears it stops anyone having an unfair advantage by using them & not telling anyone about it.

Glenn

Casper · 30-03-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

Agreed but the BOSS oil pump gear issue is such a stand out fault though that I believe it should be allowed & nothing else.

All i'm worried about is the fact that if the gears aren't allowed then the average punter out there won't get the opportunity to have a go at the records that have been set due to fear of having to sell their house to buy new engine.

The other issue boils down to trust,if you allow the use of the gears it stops anyone having an unfair advantage by using them & not telling anyone about it.

Glenn

I certainly see your point and agree that the oil pump issue is a known one. I know if I had a Boss I'd be getting it replaced racing or not. I jsut have an oldfashioned outlook on opened and not opened. Its something open to abuse. I think, in the end, you said it earler when you said that unless there is proper scrutineering its all irrelavent. People either tell what they have or not.

I think I'll just enjoy you making my car fast, opened or unopened, maybe semi opened

: and everyone can all come out and go drag racing for the one reason I do it.. FUN!

X ORSMXR · 30-03-2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G&D PERFORMANCE

All i'm worried about is the fact that if the gears aren't allowed then the average punter out there won't get the opportunity to have a go at the records that have been set due to fear of having to sell their house to buy new engine.

Glenn

Come on Glenn if we all have put out the challange without the gears l dont see how it makes it that hard to come catch us.

FPV8U · 30-03-2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORSMXR

Come on Glenn if we all have put out the challange without the gears l dont see how it makes it that hard to come catch us.

And how many oil pumps gears have you replaced?

Hrrm, not everyone can afford that sort of down time especially when you Boss powers a work car, It's insurance, get your hand off it mate!

ratter · 30-03-2006, 08:59 PM

A dealer ship replacing tensioners is a bit different to a performance workshop playing around inside a motor and being able to cover over any possible mods.

ALS008 · 30-03-2006, 08:21 PM

So how far do the engines need to be pushed (making more Hp) before this becomes an issue. Or can a stock Boss be subjected to such a failure, if it leads a hard life???

brenx · 30-03-2006, 08:22 PM

Yup still unopened. You gain no performance from changing them. It's not like it's a cam change.

FPV8U · 30-03-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

i cannot afford for a motor to destroy itself, because of inferior oil pump gears !

Dad is in the same Boat the next mod is Billet gears, is great insurance as Cam has said and much cheaper than a new Engine!

Personally in racing terms i wouldn't consider it opened, but i don't really care either...

View Poll Results: Should Boss 260/290's be allowed billet oil pump gears
Yes, Most definately !	17	44.74%
No, It is classified as opened !	14	36.84%
I dont really care !	7	18.42%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll