View: L plate drivers should be on P plate restrictions.

[chrisfpv]

Hi guys and girls,

Tonight while driving something came into my mind that i'd never really thought about before, and that is the restrictions that L plate drivers have here in Victoria, or lack of I should say.

I'm not sure what the current laws and restrictions are in other states, but at this time it looks to be legal for L platers to drive high performance cars such as V8s and Turbos.

I always new about this but never really thought about it until I pulled my XR6 up next to a very nice XR6 Turbo ute last weekend, with L plates on it. The picture didn't look right if you know what I mean.

Whilst driving tonight I ended up behind a mint looking black VE HSV R8 Clubsport with a supercharged badge on it and L plates in the window.
In my opinion it isn't right for drivers with little experience to be driving around in cars such as Turbos and Supercharged R8s, yet P platers are heavily restricted (in victoria).

Am I alone on this one? What reason could there be for the restrictions to be the way they are currently? Am I missing something?

It just seems to dangerous.

[Iggypoppin']

Bear in mind mummy or daddy are usually there chewing the ear off the kid learning...he could be in a top fueller and still creeping along

[buggo]

Plus the fact that it is the parents car. They might not have a car within restrictions of p-plate laws to teach their L-plate child in. Generally l-palaters don't buy their fisrt car until just before or after getting their p's. due to them saving up for a year, incentive from their parents, whatever.

But yer I agree with the piont you make, doesn't make sense someone with 0 hours driving experience can get behind the wheel of their dads modified ferrari, but banned 120 hours later from an early 90s V8 or 3cyl Suzuki Copen turbo

[chrisfpv]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

Bear in mind mummy or daddy are usually there chewing the ear off the kid learning...he could be in a top fueller and still creeping along

True, but is there a point where it's to much power for someone with little to no experience regardless?

[MaTTe]

its a valid point, but i think the problem is what happens when they have no authoritive figure next to them telling them to slow down and do less burnouts.
I'd put money on the L plater driving that same car more sedately while mum or dad are there. Without supervision the nagging thought to test the car are alot harder to deny..

[quirdan]

I think it's fine. I learnt in a BA XR8 and it taught me to respect the power of high powered, rear wheel drive vehicles. I never had the urge to be stupid in it.

[Iggypoppin']

A very valid point, but obviously one overshadowed by the P plate legislation in Australia. I don't think L platers make up enough numbers in the road toll to warrant restrictions. P platers however seem to be a bit more "up there" as far as fatalities and accidents are concerned and therefore the government has implemented the laws currently in place. I think more education in the L plate years would help the younger generation with these problems. Banning high performance cars is not really the answer IMO.

[Stattic]

i completely understand what youre talking about
on my Ls i drove an XH xr6, my mums forte, my car (stock au ghia with a catback) and my uncles s3 xr8 220 with a lot of mods, that car was damn quick but my dad and uncle were pretty strict on me
i can just think tho, it only takes one momentary lapse, lets say im an L plater driving a modded xr6t and i give it just a little too much around a corner... whats a fully licensed driver going to do about that? nothing, thats what!

then again, a lot of people coming off p plates havent been exposed to anything quick. imagine driving an ea 3 speed for duration of your p plates and then saving all your pennies and buying a lovely BF GT on your full license. youre on your own here. your cruddy ea was a single spinner, your big heavy powerful v8 has an LSD, whos going to teach you to drive a car like that?

theres pros and cons to driving powerful cars on your L plates, both seem pretty equal to me
maybe we should just leave the laws as they are, as long as L plates are behaving themselves its really up to the adult to judge that their eleventy billion killawasp clubsport is probably not a good idea to let some 16 year old drive.

[4Vman]

The allowance for L platers to drive unrestricted vehicles is fair and reasonable.

It serves 2 purposes:

1) allows mums and dad to teach their kids in the family car.
2) makes allowance for a responsible person sitting beside the L Plater giving good instruction and monitoring/controlling their behavior.

It shows and works to the premise that powerful cars are NOT dangerous if driven carefully and responsibly which i agree with.

The P Plate restrictions then come into effect and are valid and reasonable because once they get their P Plates they're left without supervision which IS where the problems occur.....

[Coyote mk3]

Yeah, I'm with those that don't see too much of a problem with it.
On my L's I drove a modified Ba XR8, BA GT, and a Capri turbo(which is just about quicker, but certainly more unpredictable then both V8's;

I think it is good to learn what power is and how to drive more carefully and gently while you still have an adult in the passengers seat.
You're not about to be a lunatic in an expensive car while the owner is in the passengers seat now are you?

The only thing I would say is you shouldn't actually learn to operate a vehicle in a very powerful car (as in learning to use; clutch, brake, accelerator etc) because the wrong pedal can be devastating, but then it can still be as bad if you were in a little Hyundai buzz box.

But that can't be enforced, it's just common sense.

[FlipXW]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The allowance for L platers to drive unrestricted vehicles is fair and reasonable.

It serves 2 purposes:

1) allows mums and dad to teach their kids in the family car.
2) makes allowance for a responsible person sitting beside the L Plater giving good instruction and monitoring/controlling their behavior.

It shows and works to the premise that powerful cars are NOT dangerous if driven carefully and responsibly which i agree with.

The P Plate restrictions then come into effect and are valid and reasonable because once they get their P Plates they're left without supervision which IS where the problems occur.....

Yeah well said. I spent my learners driving the family XR8, with no dramas at all. Even with my older brother teaching me (only just off p's at the time).

I got some interesting looks driving the XY around with L's on it

[Jim Goose]

Ok the "the have mums and dads next to them" arguement is probably the most silliest arguement I have heard of.

Nothing stops the "L" plater having his older brother/ cousin/ mate in the car, instead of his parents.

9 time out of ten this is the case here.

I RARELY see parents driving with their teenage son in their car.
Most of the time i see parents when the car is a "normal" one like a hyndai or other hairdressers car.

A large percentage of the time when I see a XR6/ XR8 or a Senator/ Maloo ute/ other V8 Commordore with L plates it is two young males in the car.

Whats to stop the young L plater from jumping in his mates XR8 and driving it?

NOTHING.....

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The allowance for L platers to drive unrestricted vehicles is fair and reasonable.

It serves 2 purposes:

1) allows mums and dad to teach their kids in the family car.
2) makes allowance for a responsible person sitting beside the L Plater giving good instruction and monitoring/controlling their behavior.

It shows and works to the premise that powerful cars are NOT dangerous if driven carefully and responsibly which i agree with.

The P Plate restrictions then come into effect and are valid and reasonable because once they get their P Plates they're left without supervision which IS where the problems occur.....

Spot on 4Vman, I learnt in a mitsubishi triton, only because my dad wouldn't let me into his nissan 300zx lol. I had it for abit on my p's before I got my xr6, and by no means is the xr6 a performance car, but I wish I had learnt in something with abit of guts, as I will admit the jump was substantial for me.

But i'm glad to be driving a safe car.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The allowance for L platers to drive unrestricted vehicles is fair and reasonable.

It serves 2 purposes:

1) allows mums and dad to teach their kids in the family car.
2) makes allowance for a responsible person sitting beside the L Plater giving good instruction and monitoring/controlling their behavior.

It shows and works to the premise that powerful cars are NOT dangerous if driven carefully and responsibly which i agree with.

The P Plate restrictions then come into effect and are valid and reasonable because once they get their P Plates they're left without supervision which IS where the problems occur.....

Well put 4Vman.

Insurance companies will confirm that the actual accident rate for L platers is the lowest of any driving group. This does not show the heart attack or panic attack rates for instructors though.

My view in pictures..

[GS608]

how often do you see 16 year old with 21 year old mates?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XR-CHIEF

how often do you see 16 year old with 21 year old mates?

Only if she has blonde hair and big......

[jmack]

i drive a lot of ks a week and see these so called responsible parents driving and they are the ones now teaching.bit hard for the parent to jump on the brakes in that split second that you lose traction and its all over.i no any car can lose it but its a lot easier with more power.you cant learn to ride on an r1 so why are cars that much different

[Boosh Brus]

Originally Posted by jmack

you cant learn to ride on an r1 so why are cars that much different

Bike riders are unsupervised (in NSW at least) and not many cars can do the 1/4 mile in the 10 second bracket stock.

Personally I think the whole P-plate restrictions are a joke.

[FPV+fteT3]

My girls learned and are learning to drive in my cars. Most of their hours are in the impreza but they both have driven the fords the biggest difference my oldest daughter noticed is the V8 dont need to change down gears all the time they will pull away at 20k's in 3rd easy. Neither of them have done any burnouts or bought on oversteer just because they were in a car that can do that if anything they learn to appreciate being very gentle in throttle application. Would I let them drive the fords on their P's unsupervised even if it was allowed?... not a snowballs chance in hell, learning and under supervision and being given feedback on what to do is very different to flying solo.
Current L and P rules are sufficient and justified IMO

[LTDHO]

Regarding learner drivers I'm not concerned about the fact they can drive performance cars. It the 'licenced driver' I'm worried about. Some don't have any comprehension of driving, they turn key, turn wheel and push pedals. I almost saw a kid die last weekend because the 'licenced driver' was a 'passenger' nothing more.

[Brute 33]

I taught both of my sons to drive in Modified v8 fords both manual and auto,to which they have their own modified ford vehicles .It is all about to respect of your vehicle and to drive within your ability.
The current L and P plate laws are adeqate to a point ,did you know that you cannot teach a learner to tow a trailer?,but I taught my boys in showing them the differance in braking distance ,acceleration and handling when you are towing a trailer that being boat ,car or box.It,s scarey to think a P plater can get their license and then go a tow a caravan with no experience ,they are about!!
I,m all for them to drive my Modified V8,s on their P,s if I,m in the vehicle with them,they know they can,t legally and with the insurance well that,s a whole new ball game,but one day they will have my vehicles of which one i,ve had since I was 19 now 45 till then they will be a passenger,cheers

[left]

Kids have to clock up X amount of hours driving in whatever car their parents have... if that happens to be an XR6T so be it. My parent had a big fat nothing so I learnt to drive in a rental car...in 2 days! Which scenario is worse you tell me!?

As others have mentioned, the real issue is whether said parent(s) are appropriately 'qualified' to teach their youngsters to drive in the first place. i hazard a guess to say the majority are not irrespective of the car ;)

[Blast2]

All the guys and gals have to be aware of any car power and how it handles on the road regardless if they are L or P plates. Plus parent or instructor needs to watch driver and road. We all want our kids to drive and do the right thing to return home safe.

[flappist]

P plate drivers are not BAD drivers, they are INEXPERIENCED drivers.

In most situations a red P driver would have no problem driving any V8 or turbo anything. The problem is that they do not yet have the experience to see many potentially dangerous situations coming and take appropriate action to avoid them let alone getting out of them.

Also, as most P platers are young they tend to often make less that appropriate decissions often egged on by peer pressure.

Young race drivers often win races but also often fail to finish, older race drivers tend to finish more often close to if not in front.

Skill gets you to the front, experience keeps you there

Bottom line, restricting learners from P restricted cars will preclude many of them getting their 100 hours for years and cost them a large amount of money. It will not make them safer drivers.

This is not a good thing.

[pauljh74]

I think we forget the P plate restrictions now in place were a knee jerk reaction to begin with. The car restrictions we have now are a step backwards from the previous system.

It has been shown that L platers in V8's/turbos etc aren't a factor in the statistics ie there wouldn't be a higher proportion of "powerful" cars crashing with learner drivers in them. The effect of the supervising passenger means the car is usually driven conservatively. That and they encourage learners to go out and get experience - they can't do that if they can't drive the family's Subaru Forester GT, or similar.

[4Vman]

Where to start.....

Originally Posted by pauljh74

I think we forget the P plate restrictions now in place were a knee jerk reaction to begin with. The car restrictions we have now are a step backwards from the previous system.
.

Um no, they are a step put into place because before restrictions the incidence of stupidity in high powered cars was prevalent, its also plain common sense...

Originally Posted by pauljh74

It has been shown that L platers in V8's/turbos etc aren't a factor in the statistics ie there wouldn't be a higher proportion of "powerful" cars crashing with learner drivers in them. .

Shown where? logic would say that would be because the learners are supervised and now allowed to get themselves into trouble wouldnt it?????????

Originally Posted by pauljh74

That and they encourage learners to go out and get experience - they can't do that if they can't drive the family's Subaru Forester GT, or similar.

Agree....

[devilcv8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

logic would say that would be because the learners are supervised and now allowed to get themselves into trouble wouldnt it?????????

simple fact is learners do not figure in anywhere near the numbers of serious or fatal accidents. This means there is no point in restricting them further than what they already are. ie if it aint broke, don't touch it

P platers on the other hand do not do themselves any favours and seem to be hitting the news every week

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Um no, they are a step put into place because before restrictions the incidence of stupidity in high powered cars was prevalent, its also plain common sense...

The current ban everything that is V8 or turbocharged vs previous power/weight and/or capacity/weight ratios? The current system is a step backwards as the previous system was effective in keeping drivers out of cars above a certain performance level. The new system allows some higher performance cars while restricting cars with as much as half the power of some legal cars. Current 3.6 litre 6 cyl Commodore vs a Holden 253 V8 is a good example. 210kw vs about 100kw in a VH Commodore. The current one is about 300kg heavier. Today's SV6 (manual) is also above the old 125 kw/tonne ratio.
We've had luxury German marques and companies like Volvo criticising the ban turbos rule as their relatively sedate and safe models with low pressure 4 cyl turbo motors that were well under the previous power/weight rule are now banned for P platers.

NSW was wrong to introduce these revised restrictions and the Vic government was twice as stupid to follow them - despite hearing all the warranted criticisms of the NSW system.

The incidence of stupidity in all sorts of cars continues

By previous system I never meant no car restrictions, just the cars that are actually high performance. 125kW/tonne was a fair measuring stick.

I think that learners and high performance cars aren't much of an issue because most families would choose to put their son or daughter in the less powerful, slower and cheaper car where possible. If there was a 300kW HSV in the driveway, most parents simply wouldn't put a learner in one and take the common 6 cyl SUV or 4 cyl medium 2nd car instead.

[Iggypoppin']

goose: If I was legally allowed to teach a kid to drive In my car(minimum of two years unrestricted license held) I sure as hell wouldn't be letting them sink their boot into MY car. Think about it, and anyway most L drivers really do learn with mum and dad...really!

[388cube_edxr8]

The P Plate laws are much like the Holden Adventra Wagon - a good idea, very poorly executed.

Restricting P Platers from driving high performance cars is unfortunately a result of the few potential Darwin Award candidates tarnishing the reputation of the many. Unfortunately, the Aust Govt is too cheap/stupid to weed out the idiots and/or teach people how to drive properly. The only other solution is to ban high performance cars for young drivers.

The serious issue here is the Govt's definition of a high performance car. I saw a 1913 Bently or something on TV the other day with an Inline 8 engine producing about 60kw, in a 2 tonne car. This is a high performance car. And yet, a modified XR6 with 199kw is legal for a P Plater to drive, as long as it has no turbo. :