Engine Damage - Run with Oil light showing for 2 minutes

[Rodge]

Sad little drama last night with my Daughter's car which is a mid-late 90's Nissan Pressia import. She had it serviced last week and to cut a long story short it appears the mechanic didn't tighten the sump plug up properly because she got caught on the motorway in rush hour traffic and the oil light came on. Perhaps she should have known better, (that's a seperate debateable point, lets not go there) but she kept driving to the next off ramp about 2 minutes away and pulled off and parked up. I organised a tow truck to get the vehicle back to her flat and the operator noticed the sump plug was missing.

Today, to their credit to date, the mechanic has organised a tow truck at their expense to uplift the car to their workshop, fitted a new sump plug and new oil, reimbursed her for the tow truck recovery last night and supplied her with a second hand tyre as a sorry as one of her tyres was a fair bit worn, all at their expense of course.

My question is, and I've just got off the phone with her asking the same thing, has any engine damage been done ? Thoughts ?

My pondering on this, this morning has revolved around the fact that it takes quite a few minutes for all the oil to drain out when one removes the sump plug so there was some oil still flowing round in there coating the bearings and such like.

Talked this over with my engineer friend this morning and he reckoned my daughter and her boyfriend are probably the best equipped to figure if there's any apparent damage. He advised they go down there together and both have a good listen to the engine, if it feels, sounds or drives rough then there's a problem. I'll go and have a listen after work today. He thinks a lot depends upon the quality of the oil that was in the engine, dunno, remaining lubricity ability with only some remaining oil in the engine, I'm shrugging my shoulders, no idea really...he doesn't seem to know either.

The grey area as its quite an old engine appears to be if there an engine failure quite some months down the track or high oil consumption, there could be questions about what's caused it.

What to do ? Compression test, would that show anything up ?
Used oil analysis in a couple of months time ? But with no previous oil analysis history on the engine who's to say what might have caused this for instance a high iron reading...the age of the engine or what happenned last night ?

Obviously this incident can't have done the engine any good, but proving any possible future subsequent failure was as a result of this, that's another thing. Doesn't seem like much point bringing in the lawyers as at $300 plus an hour they would soon chew up the value of the car which is probably less than $3,000 anyway and there might not even be a problem ???

Anyone got any thoughts they would care to share ? I'm a bit stumped for ideas other than what my engineer friend suggested. Is there anything practical and inexpensive I can do or is this just a case of letting this play out and seeing what happens ?

[Peter B - CV8]

If the motor still sounds & performs ok then I think you might be safe. Might be idea to change the oil & filter again within say 2,500 k's - just to check for any bearing material.

[Bushbasher]

I'd be looking to get a compression test and lift the rocker cover off to check the cam/s and followers for scarring, then establish that the sump was full when the old oil was drained to show that there was no previous oil usage. Then get some sort of agreement from the mechanic (if possible), that if there is now excessive oil consumption that damage must have been done due to the oil loss. Try and get the same stipulation that if there is a catastrophic engine failure within an agreed range, say the next 5000km that the mechanic will at least come to the party and share the costs of the rebuild, maybe you pay for parts only or something.

Bushbasher

[blackf6]

Cut your losses i say and sell the car on . My missus done this a few years ago, though the sump plug was there. She just never checked the oil and, engine had consumption problems and ran it dry.

[Rodge]

teak81 - Appreciate your point of view too. I'll get some feedback from my daughter later this arvo in terms of how its running.

I doubt the mechanics will spring to an engine inspection, they've told her they don't believe engine damage has occurred. They've been pretty reasonable today in meeting all costs and appear to be taking a fairly reasonable approach....so far. That said getting an independent mechanic to look over the engine isn't a bad idea but once again you're into a grey area. I understand talking to my other daughter at lunch-time that this car has now done over 200,000 km's so if there's wear on the cams or whatever, who's to say it wasn't there due to the mileage ?

I guess if there's a major failure in the next 6 months she has a reasonable case with which to go into battle for the mechanics to at least accept some culpability for the overhaul cost.

If it wasn't for spending nearly $10,000 getting her teeth straightened and fixed, (3 more payments to go, thank God for that), I'd be leaning towards helping her into a better car. As it is my inclination is towards draining the oil at around the 2,000 km mark and running a used oil analysis on it. That way at least we get a read on the health of the engine and we can start what might hopefully be a constructive discussion about shared overhaul costs with the mechanics if necessary. If they won't come to the party there's always the Small Claims tribunal or maybe if the cars still running okay but with an especially bad used oil analysis my wife and I need to look to helping her into a better and safer car. Trouble is you do that for one daughter and then the other one expects the same, even thought there's nothing fundamentally wrong with her car. Tough gig being a dad sometimes.

Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts. Any other thoughts are very welcome and appreciated

[mash again]

message to self, dont buy car from Teak81

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by mash again

message to self, dont buy car from Teak81

all used vehicles are a lucky dip!!!!.....teak81's thoughts mirror everyones thoughts

I cant add any more to the above statements.......given the engine oil was hot and flowing freely then a minute would see most oil out of the system then the coating would be a bit longer

it's a "suck it and see" moment I think!

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

all used vehicles are a lucky dip!!!!

same as a second marriage, really

i've seen cars that died as soon as they lost oil and i've seen cars that have run for hours with a dry sump and not suffered any problems. who knows what the deal will be?

[Evgeni]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

same as a second marriage, really

i've seen cars that died as soon as they lost oil and i've seen cars that have run for hours with a dry sump and not suffered any problems. who knows what the deal will be?

Many years ago a girl I worked with did a trip from Canberra to Syd in the work Hiace. When she arrived she asked me to check the car as a light was on....it was the low engine oil light. This car was hardly ever serviced and it just ran dry.
Filled it up with a thick oil and it ran fine. Lasted another 6 years before it was finally traded in for an upgrade, so you never know your luck.

[blackf6]

Originally Posted by mash again

message to self, dont buy car from Teak81

I personally took that car to the wreckers.

[blackf6]

Originally Posted by teak81

I personally took that car to the wreckers.

I like your sense of humor though mate, had a good laugh.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Time to buy your daughter a new car Rodge....

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Time to buy your daughter a new car Rodge....

two for this I think!

[Kryton]

So a qualified mechanic has already told you they dont believe any damage has been done and its not good enough?

[blownv8au]

^^^ not from the same shop that didn't tighten the plug properly, of course they would say that.

[Rodge]

DashGT, Personally I can't a whole lot of mileage in overhauling a circa 15 year old car with 200,000 km's plus, if the motor is "cooked" its time for something more modern and safer, after all she carries around her daughter, (our precious and most delightful granddaughter) around in that car so the attraction of something safer with a decent air-bag count is certainly not lost on me. (Just like to get her teeth payments finished off first)

Davway, yes just confirming its the same shop that didn't do the sump plug up properly that have sorted the problem out today and are claiming there's no engine damage. Naturally I'm taking that assertion with a grain of salt.
I think this is a wait and see thing. Looking forward to having a chat with her this evening, will post comment on how the car appears to be running.
Used oil analysis in the near term continues to seem like a logical initial plan, at least in the first instance, assuming it appears to be running okay at present.

[Chopped]

I'd hang onto it, wait and see what happens. You may be lucky.

Take it back to that mechanic at the first sign of trouble.

Surely a repaired engine (Or new engine) would be cheaper (Especially if the mechanic at fault helps with the cost) than another used car, which could have problems anyway.

[GT0132]

My thoughts.

If the car's been driven for 2 minutes with the oil pressure light illuminated the odds of there being some damage are pretty high.

Not sure I'd blame your daughter. She was on a busy freeway and probably thought it was too unsafe to stop. Auckland drivers are worse than Sydney ones.

Even if there is damage, it's your word against theirs that they cause dit and would cost more than the car's worth to seek damages. However because they have rectified the issue with the drain plug it goes soem way to admitting liability, but then they would argue that the cars engine should have been stoppped immediately the light came on and counter sue you for contributory negligence. Not worth pursuing

Just one of those things I guess. To avoid this happening in the future do car owners need to check tightness of sump plugs before they drive off from their mechanics premises?...maybe.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Rodge

DashGT, Personally I can't a whole lot of mileage in overhauling a circa 15 year old car with 200,000 km's plus, if the motor is "cooked" its time for something more modern and safer, after all she carries around her daughter, (our precious and most delightful granddaughter) around in that car so the attraction of something safer with a decent air-bag count is certainly not lost on me. (Just like to get her teeth payments finished off first)

Davway, yes just confirming its the same shop that didn't do the sump plug up properly that have sorted the problem out today and are claiming there's no engine damage. Naturally I'm taking that assertion with a grain of salt.
I think this is a wait and see thing. Looking forward to having a chat with her this evening, will post comment on how the car appears to be running.
Used oil analysis in the near term continues to seem like a logical initial plan, at least in the first instance, assuming it appears to be running okay at present.

Sell the car and find a bunky for her to get around in......perhaps a S/C GT

[The Yeti]

it really depends how long it was with out oil until when it was shut down, you would be suprised how little damage could have been done, and it comes down to alot of factors

I would start here back up see what it sounds like and see what the oil pressure is like when its warm (with a real oil pressure gauge not the one on the dash) I know theres nothing historicaly to go on but thats about the best you can do, if its got good pressure when its hot I wouldnt loose any sleep on it and just continue with it as you have been

[creative]

I'm with yeti on this one.

It sounds to me the garage have been pretty good about it but unfortunately your daughter ran the engine with the oil light on... Garage have a good get out there if they so wish.

[blownv8au]

Reminds me of a advertisement years ago some super oil additive, they drop the sump with the engine running and spray water at the bottom end and rev it for a few minutes and was all good. Maybe you might be lucky. Don't think it would do the cam and lifters much good though.

[TMC]

Check the hot oil pressure. If it's down there is trouble. If it's OK and within specs, change the oil and filter every 2500km for a couple of changes to hopefully clear any metal in the oil, which will do extra damage if it was kept in for 10000km for example. An engine with 200000km will have wear on it, so proving the wear as coming from this incident will be impossible.

Some motors can handle a bit of oil pressure loss, while others will bash themselves to death. The amount of damage done will be related to the type of motor, how much wear it already had, and how much load it was put under when the oil pressure went south. If it was basically idling, then the bearings have a better chance, but if it was spinning around to 5000rpm then....... The camshaft may be a bit sad too, but if it was basically idling it may be OK.

It's one of those instances where you have to wait and see.

[Rodge]

Thanks for everyone's comments, much appreciated.
Update:-
Just got off the phone from having a good long chat to my daughter's boyfriend Joesph, first time that's happened for a while...but I digress, that's another story. Mechanics were really apologetic and showed genuine contrition, in Joe's and my daughters opinion.
According to my daughter and Joe who have owned this car for over a year now, the motor appears to be running normally and sounds and drives in a manner just as it did before this incident.
They are going to keep a very close ear out for unusual sounds or behaviour.
The mechanic shop has said if there's anything at all unusual to take it immediatly back to them and they'll sort it out free of charge. I think this sounds quite positive and their actions today suggest they're reasonable people to deal with....so far.
Assumming there are no unusual sounds and everything runs okay for the next 2 months or so I plan to assist them by introducing them to my local mechanic, (I should have done this previously) and doing as has been suggested by some above an early oil and filter change using premium oil and taking a sample for analysis at the lab to determine the wear metal readings. I'll post the results of that oil analysis up in due course.

I spoke to Joe about the engine loading as they pulled off the motorway and it does sound like some loading was necessary to pull off in a safe manner.
I don't think they're culpable for not pulling over immediatly the oil light came on, I know the stretch of motorway well, there's very very little shoulder room, it was dark and traffic flow was very, very heavy. They had their baby with them and I think its reasonable that they took the first safe opportunity to pull off the motorway. I think the mechanics approach to date has been fair and reasonable and this is simply one of those situations where things have to be played out and take their natural course. Hopefully if there's a problem down the track the mecahnics will continue to take a reasonable common-sense approach to rectifying the matter. If they don't, naturally my wife and I are ready to provide support as required. I'm going around to have a listen to the engine tonight, before I do I'd better go and check the sump plug tightness on my cars

[duaned]

Agreed. Stuff the engine when there is a child in a car on a busy motorway. The thought of stopping on that in busy traffic and in the darkness with a child on board I simply can't comprehend what could happen. They did the right thing. If it's any consolation, my first oil change was in a Mitsubishi Magna (Dimantie over there?) I filled it with oil, started it up and heard loud, very loud noises from the engine as I walked inside. Yep, I forgot the sump plug! It went for some time, but after an additional 120,000kms the thing was still running well. Usually the rings are toast on these after about 150,000 kms. Sounds like your daughter's engine will be fine.

[Rodge]

Thanks for that mate. Yeap Diamante in N.Z.
Update 2:-
Went around and had a listen, sounds normal. Offerred to do the used oil analysis for them and explained what it is and how it works, they are very happy there is a way to check the health of their engine in due course so we will definitly be doing this in 2,000 km's time. Also offerred to have my mechanic take a good look at it if they are in any way concerned.

Talking it through with them this evening it seems they have been thinking about upgrading cars anyway but there's concern about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire with another used car. Oil sampling will be a good indicator to whether this car has a few years more life in it or whether they need to think about updating to something better. Appears to have been a good car for its age and mileage to date and is reasonably economical.
Will see how it plays out, fingers crossed

[BadMax]

You can perform as many tests as you like, they will all more than likely point in the same direction and that'd be a tired old motor.

Few facts:
200,000km will have lower compression.
200,000km engine will have bearing wear.
200,000km engine will be noisy.
200,000km vehicle built in the mid 90's owned for 12 months, being a grey import will more than likely have a dubious history.
Oil analysis on a motor that old is defenite going to show signs of wear.

The biggest issue is the contradictions being made. Firstly I have a massive issue with someone leaving 4+ liters of oil spread across a motorway in the path of probably tens thousands of other road users to become unstuck.
Then being told that section is dangerous and how precious the vehicles cargo is, yet you let them drive around in some 15+ year old $3,000 heap of junk?

IMHO, the reality is the mechanic made a mistake, it happens and I'm sure you've made one some where along the line. The driver, made a choice to keep driving when the warning light is on.
I think they are both equally at fault. And the other fact of the matter...It's a $3,000 car!

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by BadMax

You can perform as many tests as you like, they will all more than likely point in the same direction and that'd be a tired old motor.

Few facts:
200,000km will have lower compression.
200,000km engine will have bearing wear.
200,000km engine will be noisy.
200,000km vehicle built in the mid 90's owned for 12 months, being a grey import will more than likely have a dubious history.
Oil analysis on a motor that old is defenite going to show signs of wear.No debate there, the question is how much wear which is why used oil analysis is a good tool

The biggest issue is the contradictions being made. Firstly I have a massive issue with someone leaving 4+ liters of oil spread across a motorway in the path of probably tens thousands of other road users to become unstuck.Off topic but for the record I made the traffic authorities aware of the situation. I had to conentrate on getting the kids, the baby and the car back home safely before it got so cold the baby didn't get some winter flu or something.
Then being told that section is dangerous and how precious the vehicles cargo is, yet you let them drive around in some 15+ year old $3,000 heap of junk?Thanks for your parenting advice but trust me, if I need any more i'll ask. As mentioned earlier just about finished paying off her teeth straightening, cost nearly $10,000, helped them set up their flat e.t.c. Its always a tricky one exactly how far one goes to help their kids especially when they're in their 20's and living with a boyfriend who should be hard working and providing for them properly but more usually is blowing their spare money on weed. When you've brought up a couple kids perhaps you can then be qualified to give me more advice on the situation but the way I presently see it, its a tough love situation, I help when necessary, any more, if I make it too easy for them they blow the surplus money on drugs, drink and smokes. I buy them other nice things and they sell them for more of life's "essentials", got the idea...that's not how I want it to be but that's how it is at the present time. Hopefully theyll both grow up and take a more mature approach to life soon.

IMHO, the reality is the mechanic made a mistake, it happens and I'm sure you've made one some where along the line. The driver, made a choice to keep driving when the warning light is on.
I think they are both equally at fault. OMG you really think she should have pulled over to the shoulder of the motorway at night in heavy traffic, that's just insane and the fact that she didn't makes her equally liable, seriously you're entitled to your opinion but I think you're totally wrong. And the other fact of the matter...It's a $3,000 car!

I'm sure its clear to other members you and I have a bit of history, lets leave it at that Badmax, if you have any other "helpful" advice please feel free to keep it to yourself.

[creative]

I have to say it sounds like the garage in question are doing whats needed. Good to see in this day and age.

[fat4D]

im with you rodge end of the day 2 minutes more driving compared to being a sitting duck. Also good to see the mechanic doing there best, when you find a mechanic that handles something like this so well id happily throw him my keys for a service atleast you know they are honest which is getting rare