Aussies dead in Shot down plane crash over Ukraine.

[karj]

Not related to MH370, but apparently a Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has just been shot down near the Russian-Ukraine border. About 300 people on board dead, including 23 US citizens.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...-1226992889461

[nstg8a]

Holy crap!

[MercurySilver]

war...what is it good for, absolutely nothing.

WRONG!
#1 in the money making jobs

so sad for hundreds of family and friends, who will get **** all explanation for the next 6 months while these idiots in charge dither about trying to get 'facts'

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten described the Australian deaths as "murder".

stupid comment

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

war...what is it good for, absolutely nothing.

WRONG!
#1 in the money making jobs

so sad for hundreds of family and friends, who will get **** all explanation for the next 6 months while these idiots in charge dither about trying to get 'facts'

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten described the Australian deaths as "murder".

stupid comment

Wouldn't call it a stupid comment. Fits the definition of murder.

Cue World War 3, with all the **** going on all over the world at the moment it's near inevitable.

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

Opposition Leader Bill Shorten described the Australian deaths as "murder".

stupid comment

Er, what exactly is stupid with an accurate fact?

Honestly, the world is prepped for another war. Libya, North Korea, Afghanistan etc. A balance is needed and war usually sorts out the population problems too.

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Why would you fly directly over a war zone? Was this an accountants idea, lets save $x by flying over here instead of going around?

At 33,000 feet with many airliners flying over that route, come on now.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bobman

At 33,000 feet with many airliners flying over that route, come on now.

Come on now what? Its still a war zone, thats the problem with war is that its not just both sides who get hurt its anyone in the area too and they WILLINGLY fly over?

American Airlines seems to have issued a statement saying they're going to avoid the area? Why it was OK before this happened?

33,000 feet or on the ground its still a stupid idea, then they cry foul play when something goes wrong, in a WAR ZONE.

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Come on now what? Its still a war zone, thats the problem with war is that its not just both sides who get hurt its anyone in the area too and they WILLINGLY fly over?

There are "war zones" all around the world. Banning aircraft from flying over every single country that has conflict would result in chaos.

Agree that there shouldn't be planes flying around these areas, but it's a logistical nightmare and when bean counters are involved...

The route where this plane flew was already restricted at above 32,000 feet.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bobman

There are "war zones" all around the world. Banning aircraft from flying over every single country that has conflict would result in chaos.

Agree that there shouldn't be planes flying around these areas, but it's a logistical nightmare and when bean counters are involved...

The route where this plane flew was already restricted at above 32,000 feet.

I'm guessing in the majority of the worlds conflicts the average people don't have their hands on weapons that have this capability to take out a plane from 33,000 feet though.

[Franco Cozzo]

Why would you fly directly over a war zone? Was this an accountants idea, lets save $x by flying over here instead of going around?

How much $$$ did you save now?

I thought it would be common sense not to fly over a war zone, just in case something like this occurs.

Strike 2 for Malaysian Airways, their board of directors should he held accountable for this too, maybe they should be facing the firing squad with the people who shot it down?

[fordomatic]

Originally Posted by XWGT

Seriously bad mistake made by some wannebees who have been supplied with state of the art SAM technology.

Knew enough to target the plane but not enough to ping the planes transponder for an ID. Either that or they did and didnt care.

if you think wannabees shot this plane down think again. SAM's are not an easy piece of kit to use and require extensive training, its not like the movies. The range of the one used is also very, very high tech and something that has to have come from Russia, along with the training required to use it.

Al Jazeera is reporting that anywhere up to 80% of the separatists are Russian soldiers and i believe them. The complex attacks and tactics they are using isn't something that your average malitia could pull together. Doing an advanced ambush with 90 soldiers in order to execute a complex attack on platoons of Ukraine soldiers requires lots of discipline, as does the fire support needed to pull off the attack. From what i have been reading Russian special forces are already causing carnage to the Ukraine soldiers.

In regards to flying over a war zones, all airlines do it, and they regularly fly over places that have surface to air capabilities. You would never get to where you needed to go if you couldn't fly over these zones. There is a lot more conflict going on in the world than most people realise, there is other places besides the western world, just Australia chooses not to report on it.

Some food for thought.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

In regards to flying over a war zones, all airlines do it, and they regularly fly over places that have surface to air capabilities. You would never get to where you needed to go if you couldn't fly over these zones. There is a lot more conflict going on in the world than most people realise, there is other places besides the western world, just Australia chooses not to report on it.

Some food for thought.

Well maybe they have just been shown why not to do it anymore? The problem isnt having the equipment, the problem is the person operating it, the people with these capabilities are usually some foreign nation who have no interest in shooting down a plane carrying a bunch of tourists.

Put some nut job behind it without adequate training with an ideology wanting to form their own nation and there is your problem.

I think they just sent a pretty clear message to the Airlines.

[NC1183]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Well maybe they have just been shown why not to do it anymore? The problem isnt having the equipment, the problem is the person operating it, the people with these capabilities are usually some foreign nation who have no interest in shooting down a plane carrying a bunch of tourists.

Put some nut job behind it without adequate training with an ideology wanting to form their own nation and there is your problem.

I think they just sent a pretty clear message to the Airlines.

Good in theory, just not practical. Too many conflicts, and would cost so much more to do. Eg, extra fuel to go around means extra weight to carry which in turn burns more fuel, which would therefore mean flights would end up having to stop for fuel instead of flying direct or only having one stop.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by fordomatic

if you think wannabees shot this plane down think again. SAM's are not an easy piece of kit to use and require extensive training, its not like the movies. The range of the one used is also very, very high tech and something that has to have come from Russia, along with the training required to use it.

.

By wannabees I mean ex Russian military who may have seen something remotely similar 10 years ago....................

Buk SAM is very complex, so they either half knew what they were doing by locking and firing but not pinging the target or they were completely capable, pinged the target and still didn't care. Considering they have shot down a number of AN-26's recently including one in the same location at the same time they sound like they had just enough training to be dangerous.....

[CoupeKing]

This war zone is a little different to other hot-spots around the globe where pilots climb as fast as they can to avoid a chance of getting taken out with an RPG, like in Iraq, Pakistan and so on.

In Ukraine, Military/Cargo planes have been shot down on numerous occasions, and at altitudes that commercial planes operate in. The rebels have been accumulating weapons from the Russians and commandeered from the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Maybe the intelligence took longer to filter through to some countries than others.

[ray38l]

If George Bush was still in the white house we would be heading to war right now

[Iggle Piggle]

The guys at Gruen Transfer don't need to ask "What Would Putin Do?" if the scenario is a commecial airliner with close to 300 innocent people on board is flying overhead.

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by wookie836

the media loves decoys

Too much of this happening lately, but I suppose the sheep don't really care...
It's a sad old world when you can no longer trust what you're being told by those in the position of power.
I may be over reacting, but from my perspective, I see this happening from my management at work, up through the levels to our PM, and it scares me as to how our future is going to turn out.

Ed

[venomxr]

Why do airlines risk the safety of their customers by flying over war zones? I feel that Malaysian Airlines has more questions to answer than the guy who shot the aircraft down. There has already been a few military aircraft shot down in that region so i don't understand why the airliners fly over it.

[csv8]

American aircraft were told not too fly over Ukraine in April none have done since, what did America know then ??

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by csv8

American aircraft were told not too fly over Ukraine in April none have done since, what did America know then ??

Just on that... Wonder what the situation would be now if it had of been an American plane with 300 yanks on board blown out of the sky??
(Shudder to think)

[Charliewool]

Qantas, Emirates and Cathay Pacific have been flying around the Ukraine conflict for months citing safety before the extra time & fuel costs.
We all look for the best deal when travelling.. Maybe now we'll look further than simply price?

[Romulus]

There's footage on Liveleak showing MH17 hit on the right wing, on fire and descending uncontrollably.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Corzza

We only hear about this now though? Did they say how long ago this was mate?

Sorry, was still half asleep when I heard it. I do remember that one was an Antonov.

[csv8]

Aussie death toll is now 36 https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/24503654...-what-we-know/
So tragic, politics shouldn't be allowed..Ukraine and Russia must step back and allow recovery of the bodies.....

[Bill M]

Highly unlikely the shoot-down was deliberately targeting a civilian airliner.
The pro Russian separatists made an announcement via twitter they had shot down an Antonov, this message was removed shortly after when the real situation became known.
Sadly this is what happens when the Goon squad gets hold of sophisticated weaponry.
My thoughts are with the grieving families.
Bill.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Some serious phone calls need to take place and some fast decisions need to be made. That whole area needs a team of well armed soldiers to guard and protect what's left.

These stories of looting and guys in cammo gear holding guns in one hand and personal belongings from the dead while grinning for the camera make me furious.

What the hell is going on? This incident is going to cause a world of hurt for a lot of people and governments....

[BHDOGS]

It would be interesting to know if theres any of these systems available in iraq or syria with isis on the march at the moment its a disturbing thought.

[CoupeKing]

Makes you wonder what the Ambos and the Police see on a day-to-day basis, then go home to the family and try and put down a steak.

[buggerlugs]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but this from a pilot's point of view.....
http://www.thecourier.com.au/story/2...t-pilot/?cs=62

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but this from a pilot's point of view.....
http://www.thecourier.com.au/story/2...t-pilot/?cs=62

What hindsight, we knew there was a war going on in the region and what weapons both sides had BEFORE this happened?

Weren't two planes also shot down before MH17?

Even when all the evidence is found of what happened and who did it, all that will occur is a strongly worded letter to the offender, and thats it, this has happened in the past and will probably happen again in the future if airliners keep flying over war zones with this technology in the hands of its combatants.

This wouldn't have been the Ukrainian military, or the Russians, it would have been the rebels.