Toyota vs electric lobby

Sprintey · 02-09-2023, 05:02 PM

What is everyone's opinion on the war of words going on between Toyota and various groups and bodies criticising them in not electrifying fast enough?

eg

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota...-groups-again/

Are Toyota going the way of the dinosaur because they are way too late, with the wrong strategy? Or are these groups rent-a-crowd for Big Electricity? Is Toyota's multiple fuel source strategy going to prove correct, or is stuff like the hydrogen focus a result of Japan being deficient in rare earth minerals and lithium reserves, but well connected in nuclear power and gas reserves? (On the way to our carbon zero future, how do you feel about being warned about brown-outs already, in the upcoming Vic summer: is it a price you are willing to pay?)

I'm agnostic on this one. For many years it was Ford and the Aussie car industry in the media and opinion cross-hairs: now that industry is gone. I don't particularly care about the result of this one. Normally this thread would go into the electric car category, but I reckon it's bigger than that: it's a fight to see how society will power itself in the future.

Will Toyota be proven right or wrong?

**kypez** · 02-09-2023, 06:09 PM

I think Toyota have lost their way and squandered their lead. They'll keep making a profit till people start to move away.

Fuel prices are getting silly and people have seen how much cheaper EVs are to own and operate.

Toyota are releasing EVs so not sure why they are digging in on the ICE. Maybe the issues they are having with their EVs make them realise it isn't so easy to build an EV.

Franco Cozzo · 02-09-2023, 06:30 PM

I don't put Toyota and innovation in the same sentence together, they're a white goods manufacturer for the masses.

I think this is just straight out of their playbook to keep the current status quo going that they're leading.

Itsme · 02-09-2023, 07:12 PM

I agree with Toyota, EV's alone are not going to solve the worlds problems with emissions, power demand and supply is the bigger issue.

BENT_8 · 03-09-2023, 09:20 AM

When the grid goes down and the Tesla drivers cant get to the lab, old mate in his Camry hybrid will still get to bowls.

Theres a reason they sell at 2+:1

MrEL · 03-09-2023, 09:43 AM

E85 and flex fuel was the way of the future.
LPG was the way of the future.
Diesel was the way of the future.
How did they all turn out?
EVs are still in their infancy stages in society.
As the takeup gets more there will be a massive game of domino's going on as all the shortfalls rear their head more and more.
ICE is a known quantity.
A smart company will keep a foot in both camps instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.

deesun · 03-09-2023, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrEL

E85 and flex fuel was the way of the future.
LPG was the way of the future.
Diesel was the way of the future.
How did they all turn out?
EVs are still in their infancy stages in society.
As the takeup gets more there will be a massive game of domino's going on as all the shortfalls rear their head more and more.
ICE is a known quantity.
A smart company will keep a foot in both camps instead of putting all their eggs in one basket.

Part of the difference is that the manufacturers have nearly all said they will be all EV by a certain year. Also Countries are already banning the sale of ICE/Deisel also by a certain date. This never happened with LPG etc.

**kypez** · 03-09-2023, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

When the grid goes down and the Tesla drivers cant get to the lab, old mate in his Camry hybrid will still get to bowls.

Theres a reason they sell at 2+:1

Maybe you should read up and see that the Camry is being outsold by the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y.

One day you'll say something accurate. Today isn't that day.

BENT_8 · 03-09-2023, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Maybe you should read up and see that the Camry is being outsold by the Tesla Model 3 and Model Y.

One day you'll say something accurate. Today isn't that day.

Lol, umm, no one wants sedans mate, hows the 3 and Y going against hybrid Rav4?

**kypez** · 03-09-2023, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, umm, no one wants sedans mate, hows the 3 and Y going against hybrid Rav4?

Er... Y outsold the RAV4. Do you even research anything before posting? Model Y was the highest selling car in the world last year and Q1 this year.

BENT_8 · 03-09-2023, 10:13 AM

I just spent the week in the far north of SA, up around Maree, beautiful country, so quiet...until 2 days in when the distant hum of a stationary diesel engine broke the tranquility.
Whats that I asked the station hand, gen sets kicked in, batteries low..
No shortage of solar panels and barely a cloud in the sky for 5 days, even got to 29* im told, beautiful weather.

The hum continued for the remainder of the week though.

Out there its no country for electric vehicles yet, Landcruiser and Hilux utes we're the chariot of choice, the late model diesel Triton sitting in the machinery shed was unloved and soon to be on the market they said, you can have it for $20k.

We saw 4wd's of every kind on the way up, pulling the customary 20' offroad van covered in bulldust but I reckon its the first week in atleast 2 years that I didnt see a Tesla, well, not until one poked its nose out at the Pt Germein turn off on our way home, mind you, they've destroyed the landscape in the mid north 'round them parts with wind farms and battery banks so thats not surprising, dont cut it in the bush though.

Will be diesel country for a while yet I reckon.

**kypez** · 03-09-2023, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I just spent the week in the far north of SA, up around Maree, beautiful country, so quiet...until 2 days in when the distant hum of a stationary diesel engine broke the tranquility.

Whats that I asked the station hand, gen sets kicked in, batteries low..

No shortage of solar panels and barely a cloud in the sky for 5 days, even got to 29* im told, beautiful weather.

The hum continued for the remainder of the week though.

Out there its no country for electric vehicles yet, Landcruiser and Hilux utes we're the chariot of choice, the late model diesel Triton sitting in the machinery shed was unloved and soon to be on the market they said, you can have it for $20k.

We saw 4wd's of every kind on the way up, pulling the customary 20' offroad van covered in bulldust but I reckon its the first week in atleast 2 years that I didnt see a Tesla, well, not until one poked its nose out at the Pt Germein turn off on our way home, mind you, they've destroyed the landscape in the mid north 'round them parts with wind farms and battery banks so thats not surprising, dont cut it in the bush though.

Will be diesel country for a while yet I reckon.

There are 14 million cars in Australia and 800,000 odd Caravans/trailers/RVs.

It's funny that everyone goes on about the minority being an issue except when it suits the conversation.

BENT_8 · 03-09-2023, 01:25 PM

Kypez, you're picking a fight with the wrong bloke mate, when Bossxr8 was busy sinking the boot into you and Elon I was in your corner and still believe they will be the way of the future, but in the meantime, I believe Toyota has the right strategy for this country at this point in time as we cant all afford entry level cars in the 60k price bracket or rely on power companies keeping recharging affordable.
Australia is a long way behind in infrastructure because we have a small population spread around a big country, it'll take time to get close to a situation where we can ditch ICE vehicles.

whynot · 05-09-2023, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENT_8

When the grid goes down and the Tesla drivers cant get to the lab, old mate in his Camry hybrid will still get to bowls.

A lot of people don't realise that went the grid goes down for an extended period, so does the liquid fuel supplies. Look no further than Tropical Cyclone Marcia when it hit Rockhampton back in 2015.

No power = no fuel pumps = fuel shortages.

Ditto at the local fuel distribution centre. No power = no pumps = no fuel.

And when they got a generator onto the servo to restore power to the pumps, the fuel distributors refused to pump fuel as all of their pump and billing system was linked real-time back to the head office in Sydney because the NBN was also down. So the other problem path is no power = no comms = no fuel dispatch = fuel shortages.

If anything, this particular hidden problem with liquid fuel distribution has only gotten worse.

Finally, the other thing to keep in mind is that the fuel reserve stockpile in Australia is presently only 20 days for diesel. It screams geopolitical risk to me.

Sprintey · 05-09-2023, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whynot

A lot of people don't realise that went the grid goes down for an extended period, so does the liquid fuel supplies. Look no further than Tropical Cyclone Marcia when it hit Rockhampton back in 2015.

No power = no fuel pumps = fuel shortages.

Ditto at the local fuel distribution centre. No power = no pumps = no fuel.

And when they got a generator onto the servo to restore power to the pumps, the fuel distributors refused to pump fuel as all of their pump and billing system was linked real-time back to the head office in Sydney because the NBN was also down. So the other problem path is no power = no comms = no fuel dispatch = fuel shortages.

If anything, this particular hidden problem with liquid fuel distribution has only gotten worse.

Finally, the other thing to keep in mind is that the fuel reserve stockpile in Australia is presently only 20 days for diesel. It screams geopolitical risk to me.

Agree, might be handy to be able to do a bit of moonshinin' if you are of the ICE persuasion. Or disconnect your house from the grid so you can keep generating power/charge if parts of the grid go down or get browned out. Currently, if the grid goes down, I lose power despite having the solar, it would be nice to have a 'separation' switch - do any of you know how to do this without batteries?

And I love the idea of a self propelled car-van thingy which you can slide your own BBQ out the side of.

**FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0** · 06-09-2023, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Agree, might be handy to be able to do a bit of moonshinin' if you are of the ICE persuasion. Or disconnect your house from the grid so you can keep generating power/charge if parts of the grid go down or get browned out. Currently, if the grid goes down, I lose power despite having the solar, it would be nice to have a 'separation' switch - do any of you know how to do this without batteries?

And I love the idea of a self propelled car-van thingy which you can slide your own BBQ out the side of.

You need to have a suitably capable inverter. This is a few years old now, but gives the gist.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...verter-mb1494/

chrisc9 · 03-09-2023, 10:26 AM

I agree with Itsme. Toyota realize that we as a planet cannot produce enough batteries to make the change in a relatively short time. Not enough Lithium/Cobalt/Nickel/Copper etc, and with an average of 10-20 years to get any mine approved and producing, electric dreams are going to stay just that for the masses for a l o n g time to come. I'm sure we will change to something, and its source of energy may come from a battery, but in the mean time i'd be surprised if any major car manufacturer will ditch the ICE entirely in the next 25 years.

lra · 03-09-2023, 10:31 AM

Agree with Bent 8 on this, having just been around Birdsville and Innamincka during the last few weeks ..........Toyota country.
Plenty of Solar panels at Innamincka, but the diesel generators take over at night to provide all the home comforts we are used to.

Electric cars to save the planet .............. tell 'em they're dreamin'.
Just don't mention bushfires, wars, volcanoes, industry in 'developing' countries ..........

**Rallye Sport** · 03-09-2023, 11:45 AM

Only 5 posts before it all went to ****, sadly not a record for an EV related thread.

Sprintey · 03-09-2023, 12:08 PM

I reckon it's not going too bad all things considered.

A divergence of views. Kypez makes a good point Toyota will keep going until they won't. (If that is to be true). A variant of the "slowly, then all at once," kind of thing.

Power bills are going up at eye watering %s - some of this is for the massive build out of grid that will be required. A peek at AGL's recent results presentation shows they are confident to raise a greater amount of earnings (read: pain for us) in the next year, and some of that is required for grid expansion.

**kypez** · 03-09-2023, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I reckon it's not going too bad all things considered.

A divergence of views. Kypez makes a good point Toyota will keep going until they won't. (If that is to be true). A variant of the "slowly, then all at once," kind of thing.

Power bills are going up at eye watering %s - some of this is for the massive build out of grid that will be required. A peek at AGL's recent results presentation shows they are confident to raise a greater amount of earnings (read: pain for us) in the next year, and some of that is required for grid expansion.

Power bills, whilst expensive, are still cheaper than petrol (for now). And if you invest in solar, well that changes everything.

ivorya · 03-09-2023, 07:28 PM

It's well known, especially in the US that Toyota has been lobbying polititions very hard for them to move away from EVs and to keep ICE.
Many within the industry have mentioned that Toyota had placed all their investment $$ into H2 fuel cell technology leaving them years behind dedicated EV manufacturers.

prydey · 03-09-2023, 08:03 PM

While the world debates climate and transitioning to alternative fuels/power, China continues to give the 2 finger salute and do their own thing. Coal power stations aren't being shut down but rather, popping up at an alarming rate.

https://energyandcleanair.org/public...20construction.

They read the script but threw it in the bin. They decided they need reliable power.

lamborghinifan · 03-09-2023, 08:41 PM

The world is bigger then AUS. what we do doesn’t make a real difference. There’s a whole lot of the world that doesn’t have a proper power infrastructure to support EVs. the rich west will barely (or not?) stay in front of it. I still think Toyota will be selling to Africa/pacific/Middle East/Asia for quite some time yet.

smoo · 03-09-2023, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamborghinifan

The world is bigger then AUS. what we do doesn’t make a real difference. There’s a whole lot of the world that doesn’t have a proper power infrastructure to support EVs. the rich west will barely (or not?) stay in front of it. I still think Toyota will be selling to Africa/pacific/Middle East/Asia for quite some time yet.

Yeah, and it took over twenty post to point this out.
Who would have thought the world is more than just the self absorbed west.
The big question is, what will dry up sooner…

The supply of the earths minerals to produce EV batteries.
Toyotas global market share.
The prosperity of the West.

The wests determination to legislate itself into poverty and curtail freedom of movement by green politics will see it in a more precarious situation than anything else.
That is before taking into account the huge ****storm on the wests doorstep with the upcoming demographic change.

b0son · 03-09-2023, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

The supply of the earths minerals to produce EV batteries.

To produce lithium-ion batteries. Dont assume the current battery shortcomings will persist into the next generation (sodium-ion?) of batteries.

ozpacman · 03-09-2023, 10:48 PM

I think the entire electric vehicle thing is a case of horses for courses. Electric vehicles are probably fine and dandy if you live in a major city and you don't need to cart stuff. Toyota is looking to service the car buying public in not only the cities, but the regional and remote areas as well, and they've been doing that since the 60's.

I have a dirty old climate killing diesel ute and I love it. It's now 17 years old and cost me 20 grand when it was near new. I look after it and it's repaid me with absolute reliability, and it's probably still worth 10 grand. It's presently parked in the back yard loaded with an air compressor, an engine crane, an engine stand, a pallet jack, a 3kva generator, a large tool box full of crap and various other bits and pieces including carry racks with several five plus metre lengths of timber strapped on top. It's also hooked up to a 8'x4'6" heavy box trailer carrying a 1700cc motorcycle.

I'm heading off early tomorrow morning on a 1400 km road trip which I do about four times a year. I'll be there late tomorrow night or early Tuesday morning. It generally takes be about 18 to 20 hours. Yeah, she sucks a bit of diesel but when she's getting low I can pull in, fuel up and be back on my way in under 10 minutes.

Now, can someone tell me what sort of electric vehicle I could buy for a reasonable price that will accomplish that trip any quicker and easier?

Horses for courses.

**kypez** · 03-09-2023, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozpacman

I think the entire electric vehicle thing is a case of horses for courses. Electric vehicles are probably fine and dandy if you live in a major city and you don't need to cart stuff. Toyota is looking to service the car buying public in not only the cities, but the regional and remote areas as well, and they've been doing that since the 60's.

I have a dirty old climate killing diesel ute and I love it. It's now 17 years old and cost me 20 grand when it was near new. I look after it and it's repaid me with absolute reliability, and it's probably still worth 10 grand. It's presently parked in the back yard loaded with an air compressor, an engine crane, an engine stand, a pallet jack, a 3kva generator, a large tool box full of crap and various other bits and pieces including carry racks with several five plus metre lengths of timber strapped on top. It's also hooked up to a 8'x4'6" heavy box trailer carrying a 1700cc motorcycle.

I'm heading off early tomorrow morning on a 1400 km road trip which I do about four times a year. I'll be there late tomorrow night or early Tuesday morning. It generally takes be about 18 to 20 hours. Yeah, she sucks a bit of diesel but when she's getting low I can pull in, fuel up and be back on my way in under 10 minutes.

Now, can someone tell me what sort of electric vehicle I could buy for a reasonable price that will accomplish that trip any quicker and easier?

Horses for courses.

Just hire a car for the 4 times a year you do that drive. Rest of the time, the EV will work just fine for daily use.

Takes 15 minutes to top up the newer battery types but range will obviously be not as much as a diesel.

I use our EV to tow my Mini race car (1500kgs with trailer). Does it fantastically well.

ozpacman · 04-09-2023, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

Just hire a car for the 4 times a year you do that drive. Rest of the time, the EV will work just fine for daily use.

Takes 15 minutes to top up the newer battery types but range will obviously be not as much as a diesel.

I use our EV to tow my Mini race car (1500kgs with trailer). Does it fantastically well.

See, this is why I say that EV's are 'horses for courses' - they just don't suit for my usage. Hiring is out of the question as I use my ute a lot more than 4 times a year, for all sorts of tasks that they're just so suited to.

I get what you're saying re the 15 minute 'top up', but is that sort of time frame applicable when you've exhausted the battery on, say a 300 or 400 km leg of a journey and need to recharge to continue on?

How far do you tow your race car? I can understand it would be okay over comparatively short distances, but how is the battery range when towing on a long trip? I'm genuinely interested as reports from the USA on testing of the Ford F150 EV when towing a load were pretty dismal from what I recall reading.

**kypez** · 04-09-2023, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozpacman

See, this is why I say that EV's are 'horses for courses' - they just don't suit for my usage. Hiring is out of the question as I use my ute a lot more than 4 times a year, for all sorts of tasks that they're just so suited to.

I get what you're saying re the 15 minute 'top up', but is that sort of time frame applicable when you've exhausted the battery on, say a 300 or 400 km leg of a journey and need to recharge to continue on?

How far do you tow your race car? I can understand it would be okay over comparatively short distances, but how is the battery range when towing on a long trip? I'm genuinely interested as reports from the USA on testing of the Ford F150 EV when towing a load were pretty dismal from what I recall reading.

I understand and agree that if you have a use case that EVs don't address, ICE still have an advantage. I drive from Sydney to Brisbane or Sydney to Melbourne regularly and when you consider stop for a quick break every 3-4 hours, the car is usually charged up and ready to go well before I am.

The towing angle I still fail to understand given when I used to tow with my Everest, Falcon or recently a RX450h Lexus, they use 75% to 100% more fuel than not towing. Funnily, I did a tow test recently with the Lexus vs my EV and I only had an increase of 50% on the EV vs 75% on the Lexus. I guess you top up quicker (EV will take an extra few minutes) but for loads up to 1600kgs, EVs are an absolute pleasure to tow with. So effortless. Sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm towing.

I tow the race car just shy of 400 kms round trip. 15 minute charge just near the track. When I go to SMSP, there are chargers at the track so the car is ready to go whilst I'm on track (but I don't have to charge per say). The good thing when towing is every downhill is energy recovered from regen braking so your losses going up a hill can be reduced and range increased.