Dodgy Dyno Operators at EasterNats

geea · 26-03-2005, 06:02 PM

Just got back from EasterNats and i'm a little disappointed. I was hoping to do ok in the dyno comp but the car didn't read very high. The dyno comp is run by Mike's Dyno Tuning in Dandenong and they apparently can measure fwkw's on a chassis dyno. He said it was real acurate on manuals but was sometimes a little out on autos. He gave me a reading of 339.6fwkw's. I believe that i have 328.7rwkw's.
If this is correct then i must be a legend to be able to get 1850kg (car fuel and me) down the 1/4 mile with a 123mph with only 339FWKW's. I tried explaining that the car must have more and that the dyno was reading wrong. He said there is a small margin for error in the auto's. I pointed out what the car had done on the track and said if he still thought what the dyno said was correct. He said if thats what the dyno said thats what the car has. I pointed out that the car also had a 2700stall and he said that would have a little affect but that 339.6fwkw's would still be pretty acurate.
Talk about a complete idiot. He even had a mate there trying to support him and telling me about various other cars that were also running mid 11's with 340fwkw's. When i asked what sort he said VL Commadore's and similar. I pointed out that my car was 400kg heavier and he just said that the dyno is correct.
I'm not happy and would like to be able to do something to rectify this but don't think i have any options. What are peoples thoughts?

rag top · 26-03-2005, 06:09 PM

I thought that no 2 dyno's would read the same, and should be a guide, not final...

I've seen a test of a number of dyno's with the same car, and every result was different. There was one brand of dyno run in shootout mode that were very close in the readings. (BTW it was in Perth Street Car a year or two ago)

Also depends on the operator as well...

geea · 26-03-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by '67

I thought that no 2 dyno's would read the same, and should be a guide, not final...

I've seen a test of a number of dyno's with the same car, and every result was different. There was one brand of dyno run in shootout mode that were very close in the readings. (BTW it was in Perth Street Car a year or two ago)

Also depends on the operator as well...

I agree no 2 dyno's will read the same and that dyno's should only be used as a tuning tool.
That being said i'd expect that at one of the country's major car meets they would have competant dyno operators running good machinery. The readings were over 100fwkw's less than i was expecting. I was also always led to believe that you can't acurately measure fwkw's with a chassis dyno.
I've always backed up dyno runs with 1/4 mile runs to confirm the numbers. This is how i know that it's physically impossible for a BA Ford to run 123mph with only 339FWKW's.

**Grunter** · 26-03-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geea

... I was also always led to believe that you can't acurately measure fwkw's with a chassis dyno....

Yep, they are full of shit if they said it can accurately measure fwkw. I know the dyno dynamic software can calculate fwkw, but there can be so many variables that can affect the outcome it's only good for a very rough guide.

Racecraft · 26-03-2005, 06:10 PM

why would they break with the DynoDynamic ShootOut mode that has become all but the standard for HoresePower Heros??? Crazy!!

Dodge · 26-03-2005, 07:23 PM

dynos are only good for setting the engines parameters ( settings like carb and timing)
i had 3 different readings on our dyno day , we went to 3 places on the same day, same feul and same settings ? differance was 54 KW from best to worst the first and second were 5 off. Bob romanos was the tightest dyno on the day.

rodderz · 26-03-2005, 07:53 PM

The only accuraye way to measure fwkw is to take the thing out and put the engine alone on an engine dyno...

You can get the rwkw figure and take off the loss from the driveline but it's not entirely accurate. Dyno's should be used solely for tuning/modification purposes to see the before/after effect

SpoolMan · 26-03-2005, 08:05 PM

Ring DynoDynamic and email them your dyno sheets and see what they say about it..
ask them if they can make sence out of the difference..

Psycho Chicken · 26-03-2005, 08:42 PM

I fail to see how you could create one formula to calculate fwkw from rwkw that works on every single car?

How much is entry, I wanna go down tomorrow and laugh at this ********. Actually scrub that, I've heard enough about that mob to never want to put my car on a dyno of their's.

**Stav** · 26-03-2005, 08:48 PM

Dyno figures are not finite.Infact I am so over them that it is not funny.The only good of them is when a group of people can get together to compare or when the car is tuned on the same dyno.

I have been on a few dyno runs this year and got 109 rwkws(mdx dyno) 141 rwkws (dynomatics dyno) 128 rwkws on another dynomatics dyno and further more...112 on yet another dynomatics dyno. Hahhah!!! these things suck when you think about it.!! A difference of 29 rwkws on the dynomatics dyno!! Good on yas!!!

But as I said a good tuning tool.

Also how can this guy know if the gearbox is losing a certain amount of power,

FRDXR6 · 26-03-2005, 09:13 PM

Yeah can't say i have heard one positive comments from people who use mike's dyno tuning, how he got to be the dyno operator at easternats i dont know....

xdc351 · 26-03-2005, 09:33 PM

Well, as *everything* at the easternats has become so very dodgy this doesn't surprise me one bit. I used to spend thousands every year to get my car into premo shape to get the the easternats and it was the only event penned into my calender. Now its 1/2 a track driving and 10 minutes sitting in a traffic jam with ricers a 'fooly sik' 6 cylinders withy nothing more than a set of mags and an exhaust tip.

If someone can tell me the easternats has changed from what it was last year (above) I might come for a look Monday and think about next year, but after seeing whats going on with the Hot Rod Rumble at calder it'd have to be doing very well to bring me back.

T_Terror · 26-03-2005, 10:09 PM

Im goin to check it out tomorow, first time. ill post wat i saw afterwards

Xtreme F6 · 26-03-2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geea

Just got back from EasterNats and i'm a little disappointed. I was hoping to do ok in the dyno comp but the car didn't read very high. The dyno comp is run by Mike's Dyno Tuning in Dandenong and they apparently can measure fwkw's on a chassis dyno. He said it was real acurate on manuals but was sometimes a little out on autos. He gave me a reading of 339.6fwkw's. I believe that i have 328.7rwkw's.
If this is correct then i must be a legend to be able to get 1850kg (car fuel and me) down the 1/4 mile with a 123mph with only 339FWKW's. I tried explaining that the car must have more and that the dyno was reading wrong. He said there is a small margin for error in the auto's. I pointed out what the car had done on the track and said if he still thought what the dyno said was correct. He said if thats what the dyno said thats what the car has. I pointed out that the car also had a 2700stall and he said that would have a little affect but that 339.6fwkw's would still be pretty acurate.
Talk about a complete idiot. He even had a mate there trying to support him and telling me about various other cars that were also running mid 11's with 340fwkw's. When i asked what sort he said VL Commadore's and similar. I pointed out that my car was 400kg heavier and he just said that the dyno is correct.
I'm not happy and would like to be able to do something to rectify this but don't think i have any options. What are peoples thoughts?

Geea, I did some calcs for you and i used the fact that your car wasnt quite the weight you said, i removed half a tank of fuel so you had a weight of 4000 pounds. Heres some calcs for you

4000 pound 123 MPH= 433 RWKW

Then i used your ET instead of your MPH

4000 pound 11.5 = 388 RWKW.

If you use the KW's you think you have and the weight you say you have it works out in the ET method that your car would only run a 12.15.

So, heres the conclusion, i dont believe there dyno reading at all as your car has PROVEN time and time again, its got the power to run mid 11 second times @ over 120 MPH. So the fact that we are a little out on the power cals per your weight either your car weighs less then you think or your making more power then you think.

Either way theres no way your cars only got 339 FWKW's!

SpoolMan · 26-03-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTP-330

Either way theres no way your cars only got 339 FWKW's!

I think that’s the whole point, we all know his car and what times it runs and his runs have all been validated, so theres no 2 ways about it, it was a shonk of a dyno day..

Mr. CVE · 26-03-2005, 10:52 PM

ha ha, every year this happens !!
this is why i hold my dyno comps on dyno dynamics dynos !! which have shootout mode.
That way what the screen says is what it has !!

Xtreme F6 · 26-03-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by v8capri

ha ha, every year this happens !!
this is why i hold my dyno comps on dyno dynamics dynos !! which have shootout mode.
That way what the screen says is what it has !!

Without ending up in a dyno debate i dont believe any dyno can read HP accurately except the a Dyno Jet. Its way of measuring power is pure with no bullshit throwen in. Atleast now though DD have made the shoot out mode and that takes some of the shit out of it.

xdc351 · 26-03-2005, 11:08 PM

Well, for a comp you doesn't really matter what you use, as long as everyone competes on the same machines. If you want exact HP figures stop fudging around with chassis dyno's and use an engine dyno.

Its a dud argument before it begins... So i'd say, don't bother starting it.

needturbo6 · 26-03-2005, 11:10 PM

even with variences in dynos as some people have said, that figure is way off! 330fwkws and 11.5 sec 1/4 miles in a BA, yeh i dont think so. what a ripoff, you should try and get your money back.....

BJ · 27-03-2005, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geea

Just got back from EasterNats and i'm a little disappointed. I was hoping to do ok in the dyno comp but the car didn't read very high. The dyno comp is run by Mike's Dyno Tuning in Dandenong and they apparently can measure fwkw's on a chassis dyno. He said it was real acurate on manuals but was sometimes a little out on autos. He gave me a reading of 339.6fwkw's. I believe that i have 328.7rwkw's.
If this is correct then i must be a legend to be able to get 1850kg (car fuel and me) down the 1/4 mile with a 123mph with only 339FWKW's. I tried explaining that the car must have more and that the dyno was reading wrong. He said there is a small margin for error in the auto's. I pointed out what the car had done on the track and said if he still thought what the dyno said was correct. He said if thats what the dyno said thats what the car has. I pointed out that the car also had a 2700stall and he said that would have a little affect but that 339.6fwkw's would still be pretty acurate.
Talk about a complete idiot. He even had a mate there trying to support him and telling me about various other cars that were also running mid 11's with 340fwkw's. When i asked what sort he said VL Commadore's and similar. I pointed out that my car was 400kg heavier and he just said that the dyno is correct.
I'm not happy and would like to be able to do something to rectify this but don't think i have any options. What are peoples thoughts?

Are you ****ed because of the fact that he argued with you or that he didnt explain it to you before he ran your car? I have had dealings with Mike and i can tell you he calls a spade a spade. We all no that different dynos give different results and why is it that out of the 50 or so cars that they did the only two who complained had higher dyno readings and not the lower ones? I am sure if you had walked around and talked to Mikes other customers you would find that they will tell you the same as me, he isnt one of Melbournes top engine tuners for nothing

Hammer · 27-03-2005, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CH7472

Are you ****ed because of the fact that he argued with you or that he didnt explain it to you before he ran your car? I have had dealings with Mike and i can tell you he calls a spade a spade. We all no that different dynos give different results and why is it that out of the 50 or so cars that they did the only two who complained had higher dyno readings and not the lower ones? I am sure if you had walked around and talked to Mikes other customers you would find that they will tell you the same as me, he isnt one of Melbournes top engine tuners for nothing

If he isn't smart enough to understand that it takes a certain amount of power to push a certain weight of car over the quarter in a given amount of time (basic physics) - then I don't see how he can be a top tuner.
Sounds like many others here don't think he is also.
The result from the Dyno was obviously wrong, so Mike needs to figure out why, not argue about it.

Dmax · 27-03-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammer

If he isn't smart enough to understand that it takes a certain amount of power to push a certain weight of car over the quarter in a given amount of time (basic physics) - then I don't see how he can be a top tuner.
Sounds like many others here don't think he is also.
The result from the Dyno was obviously wrong, so Mike needs to figure out why, not argue about it.

Maybe the problem is not that the Dyno (not designed to measure definitive HP) which is designed for comparative testing and can be only be used for indicative HP only. Maybe the problem is that a Dyno can be influenced by so many uncontrollable factors on the day, eg weather/humidity that if you go back again tommorrow on the same dyno, you may get 20HP more. Maybe the problem is the fact that the dyno, any dyno can't give you the the definitve result you want. Maybe your car doesn't have quite as much power as you assumed and other factors such as traction control, driver skill etc allows you to get good 1/4 mile times.
Maybe you should stop arguing about it and figure out what to do to get better eta's instead of stressing over HP figures. A local bus can produce higher HP than your car but who gives a rat's because at the end of the day, it's the eta that is a true measure of the cars performance.

With all that said, I don't mean to **** any one off, but it's just not worth the stress or agro, just get out there and punch it.

Hammer · 27-03-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmax

Maybe the problem is not that the Dyno (not designed to measure definitive HP) which is designed for comparative testing and can be only be used for indicative HP only. Maybe the problem is that a Dyno can be influenced by so many uncontrollable factors on the day, eg weather/humidity that if you go back again tommorrow on the same dyno, you may get 20HP more. Maybe the problem is the fact that the dyno, any dyno can't give you the the definitve result you want. Maybe your car doesn't have quite as much power as you assumed and other factors such as traction control, driver skill etc allows you to get good 1/4 mile times.
Maybe you should stop arguing about it and figure out what to do to get better eta's instead of stressing over HP figures. A local bus can produce higher HP than your car but who gives a rat's because at the end of the day, it's the eta that is a true measure of the cars performance.

With all that said, I don't mean to **** any one off, but it's just not worth the stress or agro, just get out there and punch it.

There are established correction factors for achieving the same result IRRELEVANT of weather conditions. If there weren't, then development would be impossible.
Do you think that every time a race team tries a new part on the Dyno they go "well it makes more power, but it might just be the weather."
A Dyno is a scientific measuring tool, and it CAN give a definitive answer if it's built & used properly.
Traction control and Driver skill cannot change the fact that it takes a certain amount of power to push a given weight of car over the quarter in a given amount of time. If the car is losing traction, or badly driven - then it will take more power to achieve the same time, but it can't be done with less power and more skill.

Brute33 · 27-03-2005, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CH7472

Are you ****ed because of the fact that he argued with you or that he didnt explain it to you before he ran your car? I have had dealings with Mike and i can tell you he calls a spade a spade. We all no that different dynos give different results and why is it that out of the 50 or so cars that they did the only two who complained had higher dyno readings and not the lower ones? I am sure if you had walked around and talked to Mikes other customers you would find that they will tell you the same as me, he isnt one of Melbournes top engine tuners for nothing

Mike who ?

JG3282 · 27-03-2005, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CH7472

he isnt one of Melbournes top engine tuners for nothing

:

**Stav** · 27-03-2005, 07:32 AM

As I have said in my first post. Adyno is only comparable on the day with other vehicles.
The real dyno is on the track or a street legal spurt on the street. If your running the times you think ,well you should be happy.

The look on guys faces when my AU wagon blows the doors off another car cancells out most dyno figures and registers that ...gee I beat that guy he can stick his rwks and ss badges!!! :nutsycuck

Racecraft · 27-03-2005, 07:35 AM

But the point is DynoDynamics in ShootOut mode is/was the accepted format for a dyno comp.. WHy would they change the software and dyno for a big event like the Easternats without a reason... It sounds alittle odd at best.. Can anyone say Salt City Olympic Bid??

eb six on boost · 27-03-2005, 08:07 AM

you should have seen the bullshit up here (eastern creek) yeterday at the power cruise.
they had "mr trx'' on the dyno, can make over 600hp @ 40psi.
comentator said "we cant strap the car down enough to stop wheel spinning''
when we could clearly tell it wasnt wheel spinning it was blowing out spark under high boost.
they said'' he will return tommorrow with different tyres for the final''
bullshit more like cap the plugs correctly.

was very crap organising too.

power cruise 2005 , big thumbs down

who is the promoter for easter nats????

**ebxr8240** · 27-03-2005, 11:15 AM

Torque come into play when comparing figures to drags possibly more so with auto's...
There is a turbo six up here who has run into 11's with 255 rwkw's @115 mph..

SSbaby · 27-03-2005, 11:35 AM

My thoughts...

It's all in the torque. Dynos, especially chassis dynos, are just tuning tools and operators have been known to skew results. The track is the best indicator of a car's actual performance.

Not wanting to get into a red vs blue war but the Boss V8s have more impressive dyno numbers compared to the equivalent LS1s yet it's the LS1s that have the results on the track. As I said, an engine's torque is the most crucial factor in determining engine performance, not the sheer numbers but the way the power is put to the ground. The terminal speed is also a good indicator of the engine's true potential.