fuel saving stop/start for falcon ecolpi

[1TUFFUTE]

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2012...r-falcon-29927

[flappist]

A mate of mine's Vdub has this technology. It is quite disconcerting having the engine stop at trafic lights and then autostart.

[Mr Hardware]

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

Probably got nothing to do with happens in reality .. probably more to do with unrealistic numbers for fuel consumption which will be used for sales, overall corporate consumption figures, etc, etc ..

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

You ask this question in a country of 20 million people who are implementing a crippling carbon tax to offset the pollution make by the other 7 BILLION?

[Silver Ghia]

And if its a warm or hot day here in Aus you roast while waiting at the lights, as the aircon has stopped. Then the aircon has to work harder to cool down the interior again once you get going.
Hardly makes sense IMO, unless they have a way around that problem as well.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

And if its a warm or hot day here in Aus you roast while waiting at the lights, as the aircon has stopped. Then the aircon has to work harder to cool down the interior again once you get going.
Hardly makes sense IMO, unless they have a way around that problem as well.

What do you mean????

The weather in Australia is exactly the same as northern Europe.

The only difference is we have wombats and they have donkeys.

Although there may be another difference.

Can anyone else think of something that is different besides the academics and government.......

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by flappist

What do you mean????

The weather in Australia is exactly the same as northern Europe.

The only difference is we have wombats and they have donkeys.

Although there may be another difference.

Can anyone else think of something that is different besides the academics and government.......

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

Good luck SG.
One solution to the issue you raised is an electronically run compressor taking all load off the engine apart from running the alternator and also adding to the economy figures. With EPAS, a similar unit for a/c and stop start tech you could get very big gains in economy, well at least on the official economy stickers, lol. ...just make sure you have an extra h/d battery.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

Engineer? Well that explains it all.......

How do you expect to get work in the current Australian economy when every time you are asked what 2 + 2 equal you always answer 4 instead of 5 or 7 or elephant or whatever answer they need to make themselves look slightly less silly.......

[Dr Smith]

being a half glass full type, I see this as a sign of an 8sp ZF on the cards should the tech be used.

[Rodge]

Hopefully these silly systems can be turned off.

I suspect the majority of us realise there's more wear and tear on the engine and its components through constant starting and stopping than the few cents saved in fuel.

[music189]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Hopefully these silly systems can be turned off.

I suspect the majority of us realise there's more wear and tear on the engine and its components through constant starting and stopping than the few cents saved in fuel.

Yeah and the battery retailers will love it all those cars siiting at the lights engine off touch the pedal should restart oops the battery has failed what will that do for congestion????

[2011G6E]

Couple of points spring immediately to mind...which have already been mentioned.
First: the air con. Buggered if I'm going to sit in the middle of Rocky or out here at Emerald say, in November to February, baking in the car waiting for the lights to change without the engine and air con running.
Second: what does it do to battery/starter life and all the other components? What happens when your battery gets a couple of years old and you start hammering it with repeated starts in heavy traffic?

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Couple of points spring immediately to mind...which have already been mentioned.
First: the air con. Buggered if I'm going to sit in the middle of Rocky or out here at Emerald say, in November to February, baking in the car waiting for the lights to change without the engine and air con running.
Second: what does it do to battery/starter life and all the other components? What happens when your battery gets a couple of years old and you start hammering it with repeated starts in heavy traffic?

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

Yes, you do and it makes a big difference on both the Urban and US city cycles...... A/C driven by electric motor.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, you do and it makes a big difference on both the Urban and US city cycles...... A/C driven by electric motor.

That's sort of a semi hybrid in concept with the electric motor running the air con instead of the wheels. I could see it working.

250amp alternator?????????

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

From the Ford UK engineer Andrew Fraser, Ford's Manager for Gasoline Powertrain Development, brought out here for the Ecoboost launch regarding stop/start tech:

"Yeah, it's absolutely brilliant," he replied unequivocally. "I've had a couple of cars with it — and now I've got a car that doesn't have it I really miss it. On the test cycle, the NEDC, it's [worth] about four or five per cent. On the open road it's zero, but if you drive around a big city... it could easily be 10 plus per cent..."

[Road_Warrior]

I wouldnt read into it too much, that's just Carpoint's speculating, 8 speed ZF won't appear until the 2014 update if at all and auto stop-start would need to be across the range, not just one engine type.

They could implement EPAS across the range and an electric water pump for better efficiency than stop-start tech.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I wouldnt read into it too much, that's just Carpoint's speculating, 8 speed ZF won't appear until the 2014 update if at all and auto stop-start would need to be across the range, not just one engine type.

They could implement EPAS across the range and an electric water pump for better efficiency than stop-start tech.

Ford have already said they will be switching to the gen II ZF 6 speed in 2014, for a 2-3% economy benefit, so forget the 8 speed, its not happening.

Ford have actually already stated what they will do for economy in 2014, the upgraded auto, better aero and low rolling resistant tyres, probably the same type used on the Ecoboost, for a 7-8% economy improvement, so there's really no need to speculate because the info is already out there. I wouldn't expect them to even touch the engines.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford have already said they will be switching to the gen II ZF 6 speed in 2014, for a 2-3% economy benefit, so forget the 8 speed, its not happening.

Ford have actually already stated what they will do for economy in 2014, the upgraded auto, better aero and low rolling resistant tyres, probably the same type used on the Ecoboost, for a 7-8% economy improvement, so there's really no need to speculate because the info is already out there. I wouldn't expect them to even touch the engines.

The same things Holden is planning for VF except their target is 7% improvement which will take
the SIDI 3.0 V6 down around 8.3 l/100km and the SIDI 3.6 V6 to around 8.5 l/100 km l/100 km...

[Brazen]

I thought it was referring to the Ecoboost not EcoLPI

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I thought it was referring to the Ecoboost not EcoLPI

i believe you are correct. thread title needs changing.

[2011G6E]

Don't get me wrong...i'm always impressed by new technology like stop-start, cylinder shut down (like the Chrysler Hemi and Holden V8), and things like that...its great that they are squeezing more and more economy out of engines.

...but is it just me or do you think they are great now on brand new cars...but kind of worry what they will be like in five or ten years time as second handers, given the average level of abuse and lack of maintainance that the average car undergoes...?

[mik]

if you have to go across the big smoke daily , IE: across Melbourne or across Sydney in peak hour traffic where a trip that should take 25 minutes takes an hour or more most of which a lot is sitting at railway gates/traffic lights/intersections, or even stopped dead on freeways , to me it would seem a good fuel saving, don`t know about the other concerns.

The eight speed ZF would be very nice, 1000 nm capability for the FPV models .

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by mik

if you have to go across the big smoke daily , IE: across Melbourne or across Sydney in peak hour traffic where a trip that should take 25 minutes takes an hour or more most of which a lot is sitting at railway gates/traffic lights/intersections, or even stopped dead on freeways , to me it would seem a good fuel saving, don`t know about the other concerns.

The eight speed ZF would be very nice, 1000 nm capability for the FPV models .

Problem with stop start in Melbourne though, on the M1 freeway it might take you an hour to get into the city from Dandenong but it is extremely minimal the times you are actually stationary. The worst is you are rolling at a few k's at best you are doing 25. With the Ecoboost and EcoLPI, fuel saving would be minimal at best .... or zero. To idle a car at full stop vs having it restart after 5 seconds standing, every 10 minutes, 5 days a week would be a few dollars difference a year?

Is it worth it or is just another 'sounds good' idea on an already economical engine. A car idling at a stop light for a total of 10 minutes per day ...... what does that equate to in fuel used in a car doing 8/100 over a year?

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Problem with stop start in Melbourne though, on the M1 freeway it might take you an hour to get into the city from Dandenong but it is extremely minimal the times you are actually stationary. The worst is you are rolling at a few k's at best you are doing 25. With the Ecoboost and EcoLPI, fuel saving would be minimal at best .... or zero. To idle a car at full stop vs having it restart after 5 seconds standing, every 10 minutes, 5 days a week would be a few dollars difference a year?

Is it worth it or is just another 'sounds good' idea on an already economical engine. A car idling at a stop light for a total of 10 minutes per day ...... what does that equate to in fuel used in a car doing 8/100 over a year?

Very true, the traffic snarls here in Melbourne on the Citylink heading South to the Bolte and East to the tunnel, where its stop for a few seconds at the most, then first & second gear crawl etc, quite different to that experienced in Birmingham, UK on the motorway, where it often went to a standstill for some time. Perhaps it will become gridlocked here as well in time to come, due to inadequate freeway planning and construction.

Originally Posted by Nikked

People seem to think its just a system carelessly tacked on, but just like most things that a manufacturer will implement, it goes through many computer and real world tests.

Some of the remarks here seem to suggest that Ford don't have any engineers, and just put a stop switch on the brake pedal. Ford have just released a magnificent range of engines in the EB4, TDiV6 and EcoLPG...so i think they would no a fare bit more then a couple of dubious Internet uses.

Not at all, the systems in the EcoLPi and Ecoboost appear to have been quite thoroughly developed. Just that it is hoped that systems like the aircon (which is important to me) is not compromised further for the sake of the stop start technology. It already has been observed that the aircon on BA's, BF's and FG's have been designed inferior to the AU aircon system for whatever reason.

[Nikked]

-Ware and tear will be no more, lets say you are stopped for 30-60 seconds at a light...that's between 400-1500 engine revolutions not used. The engine is left in a "fire" position, so that as soon as you hit the accelerator, the engine will fire. Stop/start engines only work when the engine is up to temp.

-The PCM isn't brain dead, if things like A/C etc are creating a load on the electrics, the engine wont switch off. The system monitors the battery life also, if there is not enough power to start the engine, it wont turn off.

People seem to think its just a system carelessly tacked on, but just like most things that a manufacturer will implement, it goes through many computer and real world tests.

Some of the remarks here seem to suggest that Ford don't have any engineers, and just put a stop switch on the brake pedal. Ford have just released a magnificent range of engines in the EB4, TDiV6 and EcoLPG...so i think they would no a fare bit more then a couple of dubious Internet uses.

[TMC]

Here in Perth you can often be stopped for minutes at a time at a set of lights. Some of them require 3 or more light changes before you get through. Totally frustrating. Stop/start technology may help here.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by TMC

Here in Perth you can often be stopped for minutes at a time at a set of lights. Some of them require 3 or more light changes before you get through. Totally frustrating. Stop/start technology may help here.

A whole 3? Suggest you don't try Sydney peak hour traffic.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Rodp

A whole 3? Suggest you don't try Sydney peak hour traffic.

I knew someone in Sydney would say something like that. Have you driven here? Peak hour extends from 5am until 11pm here. I was driving down Great Eastern Highway yesterday and it felt like China. Roadworks for miles, 40km limit, road narrowed down to take your wing mirrors off due to the barriers and the worst part, people who can't drive and know how to stay in their lanes.

Sydney traffic is heavy I give you that, but at least you guys can drive and are courteous. I didn't mind Sydney traffic actually. People go when they should and they let you in. In Perth they'll try and t bone you.

Also with the 3 light thing (at 1.30pm in the arvo, technically not peak hour), the roads are often designed to put a set of traffic lights within 200-300m of the next. I used to work in the engineering department of a local council and that was considered bad design practice, yet that's exactly what they've done here.

But you can laugh. We haven't had tumble weed and kangaroos in the main street since the 1850's.