Road Safety Strategy: Driver's Behaviour Unchanged

balthazarr · 13-11-2009, 03:23 PM

From: http://www.theage.com.au/national/sa...1109-i5gj.html (my emphasis)

Quote:

Safety strategy fails as driver behaviour remains unchanged
JESSICA MAHAR
November 10, 2009

Deaths...speed and unsafe roads play role Photo: Kate Geraghty
THE national road safety strategy set by federal and state governments a decade ago has failed, the peak motoring organisation says.

Despite money being spent on road infrastructure and driver-training programs, experts say speed, driver behaviour and unsafe roads still play a large role in the number of road deaths.

The fatality rate is hovering around 7.2 deaths per 100,000 people, and the National Road Safety Strategy's aim to decrease the rate to 5.6 would not be met by next year, said the chief executive of the Australian Automobile Association, Mike Harris.

Preliminary data up to October from the NSW Centre for Road Safety shows 367 deaths, compared to 288 at the same time last year.

Mr Harris said people were desensitised to road fatalities.

He said there was no point in apportioning blame, but more crash barriers were needed with poles and trees away from the road. ''We haven't found a way to embed a culture of safety when people get behind the wheel of a car,'' he said.

More effort needed to be put into changing driver behaviour. ''I don't think there's a silver bullet. If there was I think we would have found it by now,'' he said. ''Fifty per cent of the fatality reduction target could be reduced by building better roads.''

Electronic stability control was also needed in every car.

Jeremy Woolley, a senior research fellow at Adelaide University's Centre for Automotive Safety Research, said speed was the key to reducing fatalities on the roads.

''We've got to move to 40 kilometres where there's a possibility of pedestrian accidents, and a blanket 50 kilometres throughout urban areas,'' he said.

''What we would like to see … is more restraint for speed limits until at such a time we can improve the roads.''

The Australian Transport Council agreed last week to adopt a road safety strategy with targets for reductions in deaths and injuries for 2011-20.

The National Road Safety Council will be made up of safety experts and will advise governments and talk to the public about the strategy.

Source: The Sydney Morning Herald

Gee... what a great "strategy".

The ridiculousness of the proposal notwithstanding - "40 kilometres where there's a possibility of pedestrian accidents"... that's practically anywhere in an urban environment, so the "blanket 50 kilometres throughout urban areas" is meaningless.

Presumably what he means is 50km/h everywhere where it is currently 60/70/80/90/100 (except freeways), and 40km/h in current 50 zones.

My question is... why should we have to practically crawl around cities and other urban areas all because a few pedestrians are careless/drunk/suicidal/whatever enough to watch for vehicles?

Why is it always the drivers' behaviour that must change? What about the behaviour of the pedestrians/cyclists/etc.?

Oh, and yeah, right... if they do introduce lower limits... pigs will fly before they raise them again... that'll just give them a new excuse to let the roads become even more run down. That's a double-benefit - less maintenance and higher revenue through infringements.

:

Road_Warrior · 13-11-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Jeremy Woolley

This guy is a knob, speed limits have been falling all over the country for years and road design and construction has been getting better, yet the road toll is still increasing? Try again champ. I mean, chump.

Swordsman88 · 13-11-2009, 04:02 PM

There some ok points in that article. The bit about speed limits was the usual drivel but the rest was ok. For one, i've said i'd take a 40km/h limit in the current 50 zones if they went for 130 on motorways and 110 on decent regional black top. Bet that won't happen though.

By far the best bit was this line:

'We haven't found a way to embed a culture of safety when people get behind the wheel of a car,'' he said.

I always like to use the example of current 'best practice' and for me,, when it comes to safety, the aviation industry is surely right up there. No matter how apparently 'dodgy' and airline safety is always number 1 priority and pretty much the entire operation of the aircraft from on the ground to 38 thousand feet is predicated upon the quesiton 'is this safe?'. When people jump in motor cars they claim to be focusing on safety but i'd be shocked if it was their 4th priority (getting there on time, comfort, have i got everything i need in the car etc.). When you drive you control 1-2tonne of metal and plastic at up to 30metres/second (108km/h)....think of the energy in that scenario alone and i bet it changes how you drive.

GASWAGON · 13-11-2009, 04:25 PM

Yesterday while out and about a woman started to cross on the exit side of a round about i was just entering......i saw her and thought she would stop....But no she kept walking and the car in front of me had to brake hard and i had to also in my XR .......The woman did'nt even look.....until she heard us brake....then she was 'Oh sorry'!!! And the girl in car in front of me did'nt even beep her horn wtf!!!!

And today was just as bad..... No word of a lie... A young couple in an XR2 capri 'with top down' were 'cruising' along like oh it's a nice day to go slow and get in the way..... he changed from far right lane to far left in busy traffic, trying to push in front of a truck while.............
talking on a friggin phone!!!!!!!! And he never even looked over his left shoulder..... i could'nt believe it...... The truck nearly slammed him and his pretty girlfriend at the intersection FFS!!!!!! What a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FPV+fteT3 · 13-11-2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

and driver-training programs

Driver training program is that the 120 hours the L platers get in NSW off their mums and dads who in some cases can barely negotiate their own driveway? As far as I know there is no government funded training program in this state at all. No good having low performance drivers in any car at any speed even 40kph.
If the revenue raised from speed cameras was spent on proper driver training the fine revenue would fall so would the death rate especially amongst our youth however this is economically undesireable for our governments to even consider. They can have all the BS summits and stragedy plans etc but without spending on proper driver training and road building the result will be the same.
40k zones .....yay if there aint a camera taking photos for revenue and lets face it thats all their for, there is not likely to be a HWP cop with all the gov't cutbacks so who does 40? most still do 60. IMO you see less HWP on the roads now than 10 years ago so the chances of getting done speeding have to be less.
On another note if you can afford the latest technology like a gps and radar detector this give me a pretty good chance at avoiding fixed and mobile radar and cameras got to love technology.

balthazarr · 13-11-2009, 05:14 PM

Another point: ''Fifty per cent of the fatality reduction target could be reduced by building better roads.''

In other words 2.8 deaths per 100,000 people could be avoided by building better roads.

But, of course, better roads are expensive and contribute nothing to state coffers via infringements.

What number of deaths would be reduced by introducing a ridiculous blanket speed limit?

Road_Warrior · 13-11-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balthazarr

What number of deaths would be reduced by introducing a ridiculous blanket speed limit?

Probably very few because most people will ignore them (as many do now).

Airmon · 13-11-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Driver training program is that the 120 hours the L platers get in NSW off their mums and dads who in some cases can barely negotiate their own driveway? As far as I know there is no government funded training program in this state at all. No good having low performance drivers in any car at any speed even 40kph.

I thought the same thing when I read that. What driver training??

So basically, because the government cannot provide safe roads we have to reduce all speed limits. Seems a bit silly.
While no death is 'acceptable', less then .01% is still a fair rate considering you will never get the death toll to zero.

SLO AU XR8 · 14-11-2009, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EF_6

Yesterday while out and about a woman started to cross on the exit side of a round about i was just entering......i saw her and thought she would stop....But no she kept walking and the car in front of me had to brake hard and i had to also in my XR .......The woman did'nt even look.....until she heard us brake....then she was 'Oh sorry'!!! And the girl in car in front of me did'nt even beep her horn wtf!!!!

And today was just as bad..... No word of a lie... A young couple in an XR2 capri 'with top down' were 'cruising' along like oh it's a nice day to go slow and get in the way..... he changed from far right lane to far left in busy traffic, trying to push in front of a truck while.............
talking on a friggin phone!!!!!!!! And he never even looked over his left shoulder..... i could'nt believe it...... The truck nearly slammed him and his pretty girlfriend at the intersection FFS!!!!!! What a !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I get this all the time. Infact, I had one guy cut me off from a standing start while I was doing 100km/h. Luckily, the lane next to me was free at the time so I could change lanes (had just checked before said dipshit cut me off). Proper driver training should be mandated, although that will never happen as it will cost too much money....

GASWAGON · 13-11-2009, 04:46 PM

The irony also is of all this BS is the technology of cars now is sooo much 'safer' like abs braking, stability control etc etc we can travel at higher safer speeds........
And now they want to slow us all down because pedestrians can't walk straight on the footpath provided for them by taxpayers and cyclists that don't pay ANY registration have the right of way and can legally ride in packs side by side.........Oh man!!!!!

vztrt · 13-11-2009, 06:24 PM

Spent money on road infrastructure?? Vic roads are rubbish and getting worse...were turning into NSW.

Bad Bird · 15-11-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Spent money on road infrastructure?? Vic roads are rubbish and getting worse...were turning into NSW.

Don't be an absolute idiot...

You'll never have roads as bad as we have.

vztrt · 15-11-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

Don't be an absolute idiot...

You'll never have roads as bad as we have.

lol, yeah true, but it is getting worse by the months.

Keepleft · 15-11-2009, 05:52 PM

OP's quote got the ESP bit right - its on the way, along with side curtain airbags etc zzzzz. (NB -The rear fog light *mandatory* requirement is up for implementation discussion, late November 09).

Got the (median) barrier bit right too, today in NSW an example why this is needed;-
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1225797851249

Quote:

ALL four people travelling in a Honda sedan have been killed in a horrific crash with a semi-trailer near Yass this morning, blocking southbound lanes.
Police said the collision occurred around 10.50am this morning on the Hume Highway 20km north of Yass.

Four young men travelling in the silver Honda Accord died at the scene. They are believed to have been in their early 20s.

Witnesses have told investigators the Honda was travelling south when it crossed the median strip and collided with a semi-trailer.

The driver of the semi-trailer is being treated for head and leg injuries at Yass Hospital. He is aged in his 50s.

A crime scene has been established and a report will be prepared for the Coroner, police said.

Southbound lanes of the highway remained blocked, with diversions in place.

Police are urging motorists to avoid the area and have asked anyone with information to contact Yass Police or Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000

We will NOT raise the dual carriageway intercity highway 100-110km/h speed-limit, until each road gets full-length median barrier, guaranteed. And the "Police & Emergency Services Only- U-Turn bays are gatelocked.

See NSW F3 for new examples of this kind of work. The latter done - to prevent idiots doing U-Turns on freeway/dual carriageway roads, also to stop wayward cars entering oncoming lanes through the median, scrub filled area.

Slowly things happen in AUS.

WHY did we not just put the median barrier in place originally? Our standards for freeway class roads were US based (cross-sections), not European (which has for decades mandated such). Even the yanks are playing catch-up.

Contributing factors aside, utterly preventable by road design.

new2ford · 17-11-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

And the "Police & Emergency Services Only- U-Turn bays are gatelocked.

See NSW F3 for new examples of this kind of work. The latter done - to prevent idiots doing U-Turns on freeway/dual carriageway roads, also to stop wayward cars entering oncoming lanes through the median, scrub filled area.

But on new widened section of F3 (eg Berowra) these turning areas are still wide open. What's going on?

GASWAGON · 13-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Bring on more driver training as a hell of alot can't drive or handle a car in dangerous circumstance anyways......I did an advanced driver training course during my P's and EVERY new licensed driver should do one by law....... How many near accidents could be prevented let alone deaths????
Controlled braking/steering is so important....... Anyone hear about a learner driver that 'LOST CONTROL' of a car that ran up onto curb into an atm and killed a mother and kid last year???

And then another issue.... I thought the road was for vehicles and not pedestrians.....And does'nt 'the law' state that 'if' you 'need' to cross the road....You MUST look right.....then left.....and 'only' pass if the road is......clear!!!!!!!!!

Trevor 57 · 13-11-2009, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EF_6

Bring on more driver training as a hell of alot can't drive or handle a car in dangerous circumstance anyways

who is gonna pay, proper driver training (not race track shyte), but proper driver training costs a lot of money. I have done it or been part of it for 18 of the last 22 years.

Until they legislate it it ain't gonna happen, and Government will not legislate or force training.

Franco Cozzo · 13-11-2009, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

who is gonna pay, proper driver training (not race track shyte), but proper driver training costs a lot of money. I have done it or been part of it for 18 of the last 22 years.

Until they legislate it it ain't gonna happen, and Government will not legislate or force training.

The tax payer can dish out for it, or use some of the speeding fine money towards it. Its expensive but it'll fix up the road toll much more than a speed camera ever will.

Coyote mk3 · 14-11-2009, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

The tax payer can dish out for it, or use some of the speeding fine money towards it. Its expensive but it'll fix up the road toll much more than a speed camera ever will.

NO WAY!!! stopping people speeding is the one and only way to cut the road toll, some people need to realise that if you are doing 101 km/h you will instantly crash and die.

:
Yes I agree with you, also maybe they could subsidise the cost by using the money that they are currently using on speeding campaigns, which I highly doubt do anything.

Franco Cozzo · 13-11-2009, 07:22 PM

"Driver training"?

I'm a current Vic L plater, All I had to do was sit a test with like 30 questions on this crappy old 486 at the VicRoads office, then I was on the road. I had to do 120 hours, which honestly, 135 of my 145 hours I've driven have been on my local road going up and down to going to school sitting on 100km/h and negotiating three small towns, I've been into heavy traffic 3 times and thats it and legally I'm ready to go for my Ps.

The driving instructor teaches me how to pass the test, not how to drive. Before I go for my test for my Ps, I have to sit this stupid computer test in crappy 2D graphics with no field of vision and click when its safe to stop. There is a few stupid scenarios like do you hit the bike rider or go head on into the truck?

Where is the car control skills? What do I do if I go into a slide? How to I brake without locking up the wheels? Hell, I don't even fully get how the F roundabouts work (give way to the right, but it isn't so damn simple), especially with multi lane ones.

Its easier to just blame it on speed, install more speed cameras, put restrictions on P platers and lower speed limits than actually solving the problem.

Coyote mk3 · 13-11-2009, 07:51 PM

I'm currently a QLD L plater and we need 100 hours (at least 10 night) and wait a full year before going for our P's. I have not really got a problem with this.

However I think it should be compulsory for all L platers to complete a driver training course (at least braking in the wet and general car control) before they are allowed to go for their P's or while they are on red P's.
I must admit that I have not completed a course as of yet, but I have been to a skid pan a couple of times and learnt a bit of car control in my own car and also in a FWD car.

**Silver Ghia** · 13-11-2009, 09:56 PM

Quote:

He said there was no point in apportioning blame, but more crash barriers were needed with poles and trees away from the road.

There seems to be a lot of cable barriers being put up lately around our area. I often wonder about our motorcyclists who previously had a good chance of missing something if they went off, but now there's no escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XCPWSF

"Driver training"?

I'm a current Vic L plater, All I had to do was sit a test with like 30 questions on this crappy old 486 at the VicRoads office, then I was on the road. I had to do 120 hours, which honestly, 135 of my 145 hours I've driven have been on my local road going up and down to going to school sitting on 100km/h and negotiating three small towns, I've been into heavy traffic 3 times and thats it and legally I'm ready to go for my Ps.

The driving instructor teaches me how to pass the test, not how to drive. Before I go for my test for my Ps, I have to sit this stupid computer test in crappy 2D graphics with no field of vision and click when its safe to stop. There is a few stupid scenarios like do you hit the bike rider or go head on into the truck?

Where is the car control skills? What do I do if I go into a slide? How to I brake without locking up the wheels? Hell, I don't even fully get how the F roundabouts work (give way to the right, but it isn't so damn simple), especially with multi lane ones.
Its easier to just blame it on speed, install more speed cameras, put restrictions on P platers and lower speed limits than actually solving the problem.

At least you seem to have had more experience than most, learning on country roads with their gravel verges that are so deadly to others who are totally unaware of their dangers and have claimed so many, especially the less experienced drivers.

So learners dont even get taught rules at roundabouts properly? Last I looked at the Vicroads guide there's no such thing as having to give way to the right at a roundabout. It says drivers must give way to other vehicles on the roundabout, which is quite different. So it means that for one thing you can't go cutting across lanes disregarding others nearby, like I see so many drivers do.

Yes, driver training and testing leaves a lot to be desired.

And pedestrians know that the driver will be at fault regardless of how careless the pedestrian is, so that doesnt help either. How many pedestrians do you see deliberately walk behind cars reversing out of carparks? And kids playing on the road on dangerous bends? I know years ago as a kid we had drummed into us never to do that.

GASWAGON · 13-11-2009, 08:10 PM

2D graphics.....Wot a Joke!!!!! And now we have all the 'new australians' that are also easily getting licenses..... Making a car accelerate is easy..... making it stop quickly....and safely... is a whole different ball game and until anyone has practiced it more than just a few times throughout ther driving they won't know or get the feel for it.... This is why manufacturer's make products like abs/esc to compensate for this and all the other differences/factors too....

How many peds or cyclists could be saved if proper hands on training was compulsory........ Alot..

V8 Man · 13-11-2009, 09:36 PM

This may sound a little callous, but, people need to realise that travelling on the road (be it in a car, truck, bus, motorbike, push bike, or even as a pedestrian) carrys with it an element of risk. Accidents will happen, it's the price we pay for the convenience of the internal combustion engine. No matter how many speed cameras/radar guns/red light cameras/unmarked police cars/booze buses/driver training programs/etc. we have, PEOPLE WILL DIE ON THE ROADS! Minimization is good, however we will never eliminate the road toll.

GASWAGON · 13-11-2009, 09:54 PM

Maybe the license instructers could do it as part of their 'advanced' 2D real life ??? Oh wait hang on.....most of them can hardly drive either..... let alone teach someone else!!!!!!

Jeremy Clarkson made a good point a few weeks back and it is suprising if you think about and part of the problem/responsability of owning/driving a 'vehicle'... He said something like.... "If you are a person with NO interest in cars....but you do drive one..... You will most likely also have NO interest in how to operate it properly"..... Unfortuneately this is very true!!!!!!!

BFZ Wagon · 14-11-2009, 02:38 AM

I know we have a larger population now, but it's just funny how 30-40 years ago there wasn't really a speed limit out on the open road and cars weren't as safe as they are now.. but now we have great brakes and all the gadgets etc. but we have to drive slower and slower. Plus now we also have to look out for pedestrians or cyclists who shouldn't be on the road at at all at ANY time!
Maybe people are just becoming dumber?

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

Trevor 57 · 15-11-2009, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BFZ Wagon

I know we have a larger population now, but it's just funny how 30-40 years ago there wasn't really a speed limit out on the open road and cars weren't as safe as they are now.. but now we have great brakes and all the gadgets etc. but we have to drive slower and slower. Plus now we also have to look out for pedestrians or cyclists who shouldn't be on the road at at all at ANY time!
Maybe people are just becoming dumber?

Anyway, that's just my opinion.

the road toll in Victoria in 1974 was 1034, that is the National total these days, all the changes that have been made over the last 30 years have made a difference, 700 more people are alive in Victoria every year.

Franco Cozzo · 15-11-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

the road toll in Victoria in 1974 was 1034, that is the National total these days, all the changes that have been made over the last 30 years have made a difference, 700 more people are alive in Victoria every year.

Sometimes when you drive in the CBD, you wish it was 700 less people alive .

The only way you are going to STOP road accidents is by removing HUMAN ERROR. The only way to do that is by getting a computer to drive the car for you, then we wont have accidents at all. Instead of fighting over manual vs auto, we'll be fighting over human driver or computer haha.

GPS speed limit cars, raise the fine for speeding, introduce new laws but that wont do anything. You can minimise human error by TRAINING, not by legislating.

balthazarr · 16-11-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

the road toll in Victoria in 1974 was 1034, that is the National total these days, all the changes that have been made over the last 30 years have made a difference, 700 more people are alive in Victoria every year.

Big Trev, it's great that 700+ more people are alive each year due to a diminishing road toll, it really is.

But what percentage of those 700+ are due to lowered speed limits, increased enforcement, etc., and what percentage due to vast improvements in vehicle design and safety features?

My guess is, nobody really knows. But just think about your average mid-70's car, compared to your average current model car - crumple zones, full seatbelts for all occupants, reinforced cabins, air bags, abs, stability/traction control, etc. Sure, not all cars have all features, but there is definitely a lot more thought put into safety features these days than back in the 70s.

One of the points I was trying to make in my OP is that it's always put back on the motorists... the idiots that take their own lives into their own hands (whether deliberately or carelessly) seem to be treated with kid gloves.

burnz · 14-11-2009, 08:08 AM

i read an RTA study that 98% of all road fatalitys were "at or below" the posted speed limit. (speed kills)