Stop signs

[ljf12]

Channel 7 tonight ran a story on Perth drivers regularly not stopping at stop signs.

It would appear that it is happening far more than in the past, I would conservatively estimate that in my local area 80% of people don't stop ,many hardly even slow down.

My daughters friend recently incorrectly answered a question regarding stop signs in her learners permit test.She couldn't understand why she was wrong, her dad (mid forties at least) told her they are the same as give way signs.
(Pass mark for learners permit test in WA is 24 correct answers from 30 questions, doesn't matter which ones you get wrong!).

Apparently the penalty in every state is 3 points and fines ranging from $150 (WA) to around $350 in other states.

I guarantee if the police put video cameras at intersections with stop signs and started sending out fines there would be an uproar.

So is it happening because people are like the dad above or just can't be bothered.

[blackf6]

Just paint a solid white line across the lane. That will stop them.

[Yellow_Festiva]

I think the stop sign rule needs to be reviewed much like the round about rules were modified.

C'mon - how many here actually stop for a whole 3 seconds? I know I don't - unless traffic is in front of me and I must stop and wait.

When you have 4-500m of clear view in both directions stopping and waiting a whole 3 seconds is pointless IMO. Flame away all you want but during school and UNI I used to work night shifts and would finish at 2 or 3 am and thought to myself on so many occasions why is there a blanket rule when it is obvious that at some times it is pointless (much the same as turning between X time etc).

But this is the problem with street signs and road rules in general. Some make perfect sense, some make no sense. There are T intersections where you can 'turn on the red after stopping', yet I had another T intersection close to where I used to live that made you sit on a red arrow and wait for nothing even though the waiting cars have around 1km of visible road where you can well and truly see oncoming traffic and turn safely on a red arrow.

[cs123]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I think the stop sign rule needs to be reviewed much like the round about rules were modified.

C'mon - how many here actually stop for a whole 3 seconds? I know I don't - unless traffic is in front of me and I must stop and wait.

When you have 4-500m of clear view in both directions stopping and waiting a whole 3 seconds is pointless IMO. Flame away all you want but during school and UNI I used to work night shifts and would finish at 2 or 3 am and thought to myself on so many occasions why is there a blanket rule when it is obvious that at some times it is pointless (much the same as turning between X time etc).

But this is the problem with street signs and road rules in general. Some make perfect sense, some make no sense. There are T intersections where you can 'turn on the red after stopping', yet I had another T intersection close to where I used to live that made you sit on a red arrow and wait for nothing even though the waiting cars have around 1km of visible road where you can well and truly see oncoming traffic and turn safely on a red arrow.

Stop signs are generally placed in locations where the road designers believe you need to stop and not roll through it. I don't actually come across too many stop signs to be honest.

[ljf12]

Is it a requirement in some states to be stopped for a certain amount of time ?
I am pretty sure there is no time specified in WA.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by ljf12

Is it a requirement in some states to be stopped for a certain amount of time ?
I am pretty sure there is no time specified in WA.

Was (still is???) 3 seconds in NSW.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Was (still is???) 3 seconds in NSW.

Been driving for 30 years in NSW and never heard of this rule, and as far as Roads and Maritime Services is concerned does not exist.

Stop sign means must come to a complete stop, there is no time specified.

QUOTE from Roads and Maritime Services NSW:
Giving way at a STOP sign means the driver must remain stationary until it is safe for the driver to proceed.

PS I stop at stop signs always have they are there for a reason.

[devilcv8]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Was (still is???) 3 seconds in NSW.

Isn't and never was 3 seconds. People say 3 seconds as a way of confirming you have stopped.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Was (still is???) 3 seconds in NSW.

The 3 seconds could be: look left, look right, look left again.
I guess there's no point stopping if there's no looking happening

[aussiblue]

I guarantee if the police put video cameras at intersections with stop signs and started sending out fines there would be an uproar.

I'd support it but WA Police have admitted they don't have the resources to issue all the fines from those photographed speeding on the freeway and highway or racing lights in safety cameras so I doubt the will want more fixed cameras.

See http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...-1227003224608

FIXED speed cameras in Perth are not switched on all the time because the big number of fines they issue creates a problem for police.

Police minister Liza Harvey made the comment today while unveiling a fifth fixed speed camera for the city, located between the Farrington Road on-ramp and the South Street off-ramp.

When asked why the five fixed cameras weren’t operational all the time, Ms Harvey said the number of infringements issued “created a problem” for the police department.

“It does create a large volume of infringements that need to be processed which created a problem,” she said.

“We want to give drivers a chance at remaining compliant and rotate the cameras around with that element of surprise and people not quite understanding when they are there we find that we get improvements in driver compliance,” she said.

“We get a very good effect on driver behaviour with the current system that we have in place.”
Ms Harvey said the current system would only be changed with sufficient evidence from other trials.

“There’s a range of different things that we could do but we find that the system that we have in place is getting the desired outcome,” she said.

The new fixed camera is the state’s first fixed camera which can record both the front and back number plates, which Ms Harvey says will help catch motorcyclists breaking the law.

“Interestingly during the test period with this fixed location, police are already investigating six hoon drivers who were caught driving between 146km/h and 178km/h on the freeway just outside this hospital development,” she said.

“So very serious offending indeed.

“And we know from previous mobile deployments at this site that we’re getting about 18 per cent of non-compliance with the speed limit, which isn’t good enough. This site is a site of high non-compliance.

“We rotate the cameras through the different locations at Stirling, Innaloo, Kwinana Freeway south, this one and then one on Roe Highway.”

Shadow police minister Michelle Roberts said Ms Harvey was “not interested” in tackling the harder road safety issues.

“I would like to see the Road Safety Minister launching initiatives to help road safety, not fundraisers,” Ms Roberts said.

“We have never seen a lesser police presence on our roads, yet these cameras will raise millions of dollars for the Government.”

[LoudPipes]

I stop at stop signs.

[uniacidz]

I stop.








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[Vincenzo]

As a formerLicence Testing Officer with the Motor Vehicle Registry (NT) I can assure you that it is not just parents who have a weird idea of the rules. I have no idea how many students I failed from one particular driving school who taught their students that, and I quote "don't bother stopping at a stop sign if there are no vehicles coming".

Ten years of Defensive Driver Instructing also, I always made sure the students stopped completely before moving off.

Also, to the best of my knowledge of the Australian Road rules, you must stop forward movement behind the solid line of a stop sign. there is nothing there about how long you need to be still for. HTH


Cheers Vincenzo

[marty351]

I always stop at stop signs... out of fear of the unseen. This includes the fear of a police person waiting for the 1,2,3, second rule. Generaly just a complete stop is required, but always count 1,2,3, for best resaults.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vincenzo

As a formerLicence Testing Officer with the Motor Vehicle Registry (NT) I can assure you that it is not just parents who have a weird idea of the rules. I have no idea how many students I failed from one particular driving school who taught their students that, and I quote "don't bother stopping at a stop sign if there are no vehicles coming".

Ten years of Defensive Driver Instructing also, I always made sure the students stopped completely before moving off.

Also, to the best of my knowledge of the Australian Road rules, you must stop forward movement behind the solid line of a stop sign. there is nothing there about how long you need to be still for. HTH


Cheers Vincenzo

Kyneton VicRoads is a doozie, theres a stop sign on the exit driveway, and a solid line across the road to signify stop.

So many people fail their license test in the first 15 seconds

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Kyneton VicRoads is a doozie, theres a stop sign on the exit driveway, and a solid line across the road to signify stop.

So many people fail their license test in the first 15 seconds

Beverly Hills RMS here in Sydney is the same. Dozens of people failed their test before hitting the road due to not stopping at the exit of the driveway.

I noticed that they now have a notice near the stop sign saying 'your driving test starts from the carpark' (or similar). They must have got some flack from all the people they instantly failed for not stopping.

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by Vincenzo

As a formerLicence Testing Officer with the Motor Vehicle Registry (NT) I can assure you that it is not just parents who have a weird idea of the rules. I have no idea how many students I failed from one particular driving school who taught their students that, and I quote "don't bother stopping at a stop sign if there are no vehicles coming".

Ten years of Defensive Driver Instructing also, I always made sure the students stopped completely before moving off.

Also, to the best of my knowledge of the Australian Road rules, you must stop forward movement behind the solid line of a stop sign. there is nothing there about how long you need to be still for. HTH


Cheers Vincenzo

A full and complete stop as close as possible to the white line is all that is required.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Vincenzo

As a formerLicence Testing Officer with the Motor Vehicle Registry (NT) I can assure you that it is not just parents who have a weird idea of the rules. I have no idea how many students I failed from one particular driving school who taught their students that, and I quote "don't bother stopping at a stop sign if there are no vehicles coming".

Ten years of Defensive Driver Instructing also, I always made sure the students stopped completely before moving off.

Also, to the best of my knowledge of the Australian Road rules, you must stop forward movement behind the solid line of a stop sign. there is nothing there about how long you need to be still for. HTH


Cheers Vincenzo

I agree with everything in this post. There are some stop signs near me where you need to be forward of the white line to actually see oncoming traffic. A bad design flaw sometimes.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by irish2

I agree with everything in this post. There are some stop signs near me where you need to be forward of the white line to actually see oncoming traffic. A bad design flaw sometimes.

As long as you stop before the white line, you can legally roll forward over it, and stop again to check.

I have a crazy one on the way to work. Leaving a small street that goes onto a main road. The unbroken line, and the stop sign is a car length back from the intersecting road, because the footpath beside that main road is a bike track as well (complete with dotted lines). There is also a painted line right at the corner too, but no stop sign. I always stop at the first line with the sign, then roll forward and stop again at the second line before pulling out. I was always taught that the solid line across the road meant stop, even if there is no sign there.

Over the last 6 years, a few of my colleagues have been pulled up there by the cops, and mostly warned, but occasionally they have been fined for not stopping at the 2nd line.

[Vincenzo]

Originally Posted by Vincenzo View Post
As a formerLicence Testing Officer with the Motor Vehicle Registry (NT) I can assure you that it is not just parents who have a weird idea of the rules. I have no idea how many students I failed from one particular driving school who taught their students that, and I quote "don't bother stopping at a stop sign if there are no vehicles coming".

Ten years of Defensive Driver Instructing also, I always made sure the students stopped completely before moving off.

Also, to the best of my knowledge of the Australian Road rules, you must stop forward movement behind the solid line of a stop sign. there is nothing there about how long you need to be still for. HTH

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

As long as you stop before the white line, you can legally roll forward over it, and stop again to check.

combine both and you have the perfect answer, especially for partially blind intersections.


Cheers Vincenzo

[EgoFG]

I used to regularly use an intersection, where it was almost always more unsafe to stop at the stop sign.

much safer to creep forward enough to see, and then take off from a rolling start if it was clear.

[commodorenutt]

There are so many rules that people are ignorant of, and the stop sign is just one of them that I've noticed lately.

Others I see on a daily basis:

- Not crossing an unbroken lane dividing line (particularly common on freeway merges where people just have to get across to the right lane at all costs).

- Turning left from the right hand lane at a 2-lane roundabout

- Not moving over fulling into marked left/right turn bays, blocking traffic in the straight ahead lanes (and then swinging out like their Barina is towing a 40' container behind it).

- Changing lanes through traffic light intersections.

- Blocking intersections because they just have to get out there & can't wait one more light cycle.

- Late running of amber & red lights (the other morning I got a green arrow, and had to wait for 5 cars who all ran the red across in front of me after I got the green arrow! - and 3 of those cars had baby seats in them!)

- And the most common - failure to keep left unless overtaking.


The problem is the government would rather spend the money on cameras to raise revenue, and sit cops in cars to read the newspaper while the camera is scanning plates, than actually pay them to do proper patrolling (which doesn't raise as much revenue, but goes a long way towards educating the ignorant).

Standards have slipped dramatically in the last decade, and despite the racist people claiming it's because of immigration (I doubt it, and it's hard to prove it - but just look at the number of anglo-saxon people flounting the rules and it put that theory to bed anyway) I reckon it all comes down to relaxed standards in learning the road rules (hell, 24 from 30 questions? How poor is that?) and a lack of actual patrolling Police, so people get away with it, and continue to push the barrier, until in their own mind they don't believe they are doing anything wrong.

[pottery beige]

why do people stop at empty round abouts

it really ruins my day

[JC]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

why do people stop at empty round abouts

it really ruins my day

One of my pet hates too - they only check what's on the roundabout once they get right up to it, when they could have done the first check 20m or so out, and possibly kept going....but no, they slow down to just about a stop, or stop altogether. The worst is when they do this on a 2 lane roundabout, and they have decided the right hand lane is the one to do it in!

[FPV+fteT3]

Where I live there is a 1 lane railway underpass. One direction has a stop sign the other has right of way. I have lost count of how many times I have just about got ontop of the underpass only to have the car at the stop sign take off and go through. The stopped cars have clear sight of oncoming traffic.
One day when I am in the wrong mood I will just continue along and push whatever piece of crap is coming towards me back out the other side and just say "whoops my bad hope you have insurance".

[FPV+fteT3]

In Newcastle around the Hamilton/Mereweather area we have many backstreet cross roads with stop signs every direction it's such a fun game deciding who is going to give way to whome, I would think it would revert back to the old give way to your right rule? but its a bit stupid with all drivers stopped and just looking at each other gesturing politely at first ...no you go...no you go... then flicking the bird and tearing off.....

[monzie]

I always stop, but keep an eye on the mirrors. A few year back got run up the clacker at a Stop sign and the other drivers first words where "why did you stop"

[Ben73]

I come across many stop signs that seam like safe enough intersection to be only giveway signs. I also see a few giveways which should be stop signs. It's just like whatever sign they had available on the day of installing.

Another one I can't figure out is how they choose which intersections are safe enough to have is "Left turn on red after stopping"
Over the last few years at least 2 of these signs have been removed from intersections I regularly drive through. Both of these intersections it was quite safe to turn right on red. Never saw any close calls.
But there is one of these signs still remaining right near one of my mates houses where it's completely dangerous to turn left on red. You struggle to see approaching traffic from the right hand side and it has moderate pedestrian traffic crossing illegally where you are turning. Some how this is still safe to turn on red.

[lucas2]

Some stop signs are not necessary IMO and should be changed to give way signs. A stop sign near my place has excellent vision in both directions (although you cannot turn right), this stop sign is near the Police Academy and I frequently see police cars roll through it, just like most other people do. However, there are stop signs that should be there.

[aussiblue]

The WA legislation (modelled on national code so likely same for all states) says here http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation..._homepage.html

3. Terms and abbreviations used:
stop, in relation to a vehicle, means to stop the vehicle and permit it to remain stationary, except for the purpose of avoiding conflict with other traffic or of complying with the provisions of any law;

3 seconds is a good rule of thumb; long enough to look left and right as usually also required and demonstrate to an observing police officer you have stopped.