Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[RIPGMH]

What does everyone reckon? As opposed to simply banning "P" platers from owning a performance/modified car, why not require the completion of an advance driver training course to allow the use of a performance vehicle. A secondary test in addition to the regular driving assessment.

[nugget378]

They have advanced driving courses for P platers every friday night at a certain maccas already dont they?

[RIPGMH]

Yeah I think the criteria would have to be a little more stringent than that.

[Christina]

I am a P Plater, I absolutely HATE the fact I can't drive a V8, (don't we all!)...
It is unfair, sure, but I can wait, I will wait.

I don't feel angry about it because if I had a v8, i'd be dead in a week. Some people can control themselves, some can't.
As for the whole "I am a good driver" line, who would resist the temptation at my age?...

But you can't deny that alot of people spoil it for others that is why any sort of implement into the system to allow some and not others will always be unfair.

My brother has a Ricer.. (Evo 7) and he is 21, you'd think he'd be going around corners at 200kms, but nope, he drives like a granny... But I chose the 2nd option, only because people can act a certain way when under supervision.... and change on their own or with friends. I guess it's a simply a matter of waiting, don't pump money into your v6, keep saving to buy the v8/performance car and avoid interest rates!!

But upon saying this, yes, I would love a V8.

[MITCHAY]

Personally I feel you should be able to drive whatever hell you want to.

I had my car on my Ps and havent even come close to bending it yet. Now on open licence.

[XR8-260]

I agree. P platers should be allowed to drive whatever they want. Clearly the restriction laws aren't working.

[Sykotik]

Cops really don't care about power to weight ratio, especially here in Geelong. A friend of mine is on his P's and owns a 5.4 litre VS and he has been pulled over several times already for inspections on his car. They never mentioned anything about the car being too powerful. I figure that unless you drive around like a maniac, that includes accelerating too hard, the cops will leave you alone. I myself drive around in my mums 4 litre AU2 SR and my dads 4.2 litre VH (as well as my own 1.6 Meteor but that is irrelevant) I have never once been pulled over.

But then again, i guess it really comes down to where you live and the areas you hang around. If your car gets spotted too often in a 'hoon hotzone' then i guess the cops will try and do everything to confiscate your car.

[b2tf]

disagree, it just means your non certified P platers are going to be even more ****ed off that they are as restricted as they are.

[brendo83]

I have no issue with power restrictions for P platers, I've been full license now for 2 years, but I didn't have a problem with it then either.
An advanced driving course to allow you a more powerful car would be a backwards step.
Think about it, a P plater does an advanced driving course and improves his driving skills say by 20%, then said P plater gets his certificate and goes out and buys himself a 290 GT-P (rich parents).
Now does anyone honestly think that P plater will go out and cruise around like a grandma, no way.....he's an advanced driver now and even more invincible than he was before.
And further does anyone think he is capable of driving that car properly?

When I was on my P's I had a crappy XF that couldn't pull a skid if it tried and guess what, because the car didn't have performance I felt no need to thrash it, If I had a performance car I would have been doing burnouts and getting sideways around corners everywhere.

P platers cant drive powerful cars, deal with it, three years is a very short time, I fully intended to get a much more powerful car once I got my full license, I spent the first year or so waiting for the day, and on my 21st I was excited to know I could now get any car I wanted.......I still don't have one two years later.

[One Drone]

Doesn't matter what car it is, any car can speed and hence hit a pole at high velocities. A driving course for everyone would be a better idea and not just P platers.

[flappist]

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by flappist

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

Well written. Remends me of the old saying... "There are old pilots, and there bold pilots. But there are no old bold pilots" The same analagy(SP?) can apply to drivers as well.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by flappist

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

Wouldn't ever dispute that.
I wouldn't know what the solution would be. Simply because it took couple of serious prangs for me to drive with caution.
I think the day we figure out how to instill into young drivers the responsibility required to drive and that it is a privilege to drive, will be the day we hear less about their deaths.
And since it is a privilege, I can't see why I will ever allow any young person in my family to have anything remotely powerful.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by flappist

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????

I was going to say :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps.

Well apart from the insurance issue, only Metro 2s are under 5700kg MTOW so an ATPL is required for all the rest and I am fairly sure there are no Metro 2s left in Oz. I will check tomorrow, the guy who runs the ground school for that type is a mate (he taught me to fly originally).
Even if it is a metro 2 and insurance is not an issue how do you get a CPL, initial twin, MECIR, pressurisation, MCE and BGT in 350 hrs? Maybe if you won lotto?
I had PA31 at 350 hrs and that was just lucky because another person won lotto and bought a nevergo "to take the family for holidays" and needed it to be flown occaisionally. Most of my group were busy destructing in bugsmashers at 350TT.
A PA31 is a bloody long way from a Metro, TAS 240kt, ceiling FL190, two nasty garretts.... not for the new player....

But back to the thread. I think the confusion is that the "P" crowd think that they are being told they are not good enough for a high performance car because when they play up they migh lose it.

The actual problem is when the average new driver is plodding along and a problem jums out to bite them they do not know what to do instintivley.

e.g. My car will break traction in 4th at 100km/h on slightly damp roads. It has caught me a couple of times at night when overtaking and the bum has stepped out. At that speed if you do not correct it immediately and smoothly you will fishtail off into the scrub in nothing flat.
Also on roundabouts that have oil on them from trucks or 4wds. A low powered car might break and chirp but hold fairly steady. A high powered car will step out and then potentially understeer into the next lane.
There are many many cars on this forum that are more powerful than mine.

[Outbackjack]

[QUOTE=flappist]Well apart from the insurance issue, only Metro 2s are under 5700kg MTOW so an ATPL is required for all the rest and I am fairly sure there are no Metro 2s left in Oz. I will check tomorrow, the guy who runs the ground school for that type is a mate (he taught me to fly originally).
Even if it is a metro 2 and insurance is not an issue how do you get a CPL, initial twin, MECIR, pressurisation, MCE and BGT in 350 hrs? Maybe if you won lotto?
QUOTE]

Like I said... perhaps. Most of my flying experiencs in high performancs a/c was in a turbo piper arrow. To get that experience I had to buy the bloody thing. Some might say that this plane did not really represent a "high" per formance a/c." But they are very under rated with 1970's thecnology.... pretty fast , . But I did Coffs to AKL on 4 ocassions (return). I am a sucker for blonde hair and blue eyes.

It is a strong attitude change when you suddenly have loved ones getting their license and head on out into the wide world by themselves. I think that the power restrictions may prove a step in the rite direction.

The next positive step will be sych tests. Did you ever feel when you were a student pilot that when you started doing your first circuits that you were being watched closely. And that that if you didn't perform you were not going to go much further with your flying career? That is where most student fly boys throw in the towel......... Cars should be the same. Learn your limits or catch the bus.

Cheers all.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

You are right, you do not know about the whole aviation thing at all.

Bullcrap, your brother is lying to you or he is in a third world country like Nigeria and his "licence" is invalid in the rest of the word.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????

No. He is paying some airline to train with them. Apprently they are desperate for pilots.

Originally Posted by flappist

You are right, you do not know about the whole aviation thing at all.

Bullcrap, your brother is lying to you or he is in a third world country like Nigeria and his "licence" is invalid in the rest of the word.

ummmm ok....a bit rude of you. If you call Perth Airport Nigeria?? :
He is training in the metro with Skippers Aviation. They where looking for pilots aswell and where offering people to pay $38 000 or there abouts and they would train you in a metro and give you a job as a first officer.

I will get more info from my brother. Thanks

[flappist]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

No. He is paying some airline to train with them. Apprently they are desperate for pilots.



ummmm ok....a bit rude of you. If you call Perth Airport Nigeria?? :
He is training in the metro with Skippers Aviation. They where looking for pilots aswell and where offering people to pay $38 000 or there abouts and they would train you in a metro and give you a job as a first officer.

I will get more info from my brother. Thanks

Ask him if he has 350 total, 350 command or 350 twin?

Skippers operate metro 23s which are over 5700kg and require an ATPL to command. An ATPL require over 1000 hrs as well as a lot of other stuff.
Technically a CPL can be FO but not on RPT but insurance will spit.
It has been a while so I will check details tomorrow. I know a couple of pilots there.

[big_pete]

its a good idea in theory.

but it would lead to more problems i think, there will still be ******** drivers, only now they will be even more confident they can pull of those dangerous moves because they've done an advanced driver course

[majin_andrew]

I initially thought it was a good idea, but then I voted no because Advanced Driver courses could make some (not all, but some) P-plate drivers more cocky and willing to do more dangerous things because they believe they can get out of it. Some (again, not all) p platers who did this course might want to show off their new-found skills to a friend, and that is not desirable.
What I'm saying can be summarised by big_pete.

Originally Posted by big_pete

its a good idea in theory.

but it would lead to more problems i think, there will still be ******** drivers, only now they will be even more confident they can pull of those dangerous moves because they've done an advanced driver course

I also agree, however, that it is the driver, not the car that causes accidents. People can die in a corolla at 80km/h.
But I believe this idea would create more dangerous drivers, sure, more tallented drivers, but more risky and more dangerous. And this could also extend to friends of the advanced driver, who feel the need to be like / copy their advanced friends driving behaviours.

I think that letting all p-platers drive whatever they choose would be as safe or safer; as a lot of them are dangerous in little buzz boxes anyway.

[poolkeeper]

Its NOT the car, ITS the driver, like I said b4...

With every action is a reaction..

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Its NOT the car, ITS the driver, like I said b4...

Funny many still don't get that.

Well how about them power restrictions, they've saved plenty of lives last year _

I still stand by that my present car is much safer than my old car. Even with all the equipment in the world, if I be a ******** then it is going to kill me.

Originally Posted by flappist

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

If I'm responsible enough to save up the money than I'm resposible enough to own it. Paid cash, no loans bud :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

If I'm responsible enough to save up the money than I'm resposible enough to own it. Paid cash, no loans bud :

I used to own a large number of machine guns that I paid cash for, all gone now. Apparantly I am no longer responsible enough.

If you did save up and pay cash, then good on you, you are a very rare person in this current climate and I salute you.
I bet you drive a basic normal car not a GT or Clubsport though.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

I bet you drive a basic normal car not a GT or Clubsport though.

I drive a 2003 WRX. Not a GT or Clubsport but still a performance car.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I drive a 2003 WRX. Not a GT or Clubsport but still a performance car.

Again, well done, good on you.
Drive it safely, they are a lot of fun.

I notice you are 20 so I suspect you didn't get your licence last week though, did you? If you had been given your sickem the day you got your P plates how do you think you would have gone?

[Josh_XC]

Ok. ive done an advanced driving course, it was massive helpfull.
But with this i can see it adding to P platers ego as if they have done the course it might have a negative effect, as in if a p plater has done the course it can give the p plater the impression that they can do anything and there invincible and cant do anything wrong, i can see this happening for sure as this is in my opinion the biggest problem with P platers 2day.

I should know i am a p plater.

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by Josh_XC

Ok. ive done an advanced driving course, it was massive helpfull.
But with this i can see it adding to P platers ego as if they have done the course it might have a negative effect, as in if a p plater has done the course it can give the p plater the impression that they can do anything and there invincible and cant do anything wrong, i can see this happening for sure as this is in my opinion the biggest problem with P platers 2day.

I should know i am a p plater.

It can also go like = Ive only got a 6 cylinder, I cant do anything wrong or dangerous in this car otherwise it would of been banned.

I should know i am a p plater.