Ford Aus requesting taxpayer assistance for r&d

[stevz]

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...202-2ylpy.html

I saw this article a few days ago but funnily enough there has been no mention of it here whatsoever.
Now I have no issue with government assistance to the automotive industry and see it as necessary due to the high cost of manufacturing in this country and the unlevel playing field the manufacturers have to compete in.
Ford has now come out and requested government funding for its R&D division which will continue after it ceases manufacturing in 2016.
I have mixed thoughts on this, as it is one thing to manufacture here, but if they are developing vehicles that will be sold profitably around the world, then shouldn't these profits be funding the R&D and not the Australian taxpayer? There were quite a few here who stood the moral high ground in that Ford closed down so unlike Holden, wouldn't need to ask for more taxpayer assistance. What are your thoughts now?

[b0son]

how many people will they employ? and are there even competent and experienced engineering/design staff in cheaper countries?

[sprint347dave]

if australia isnt good enough to manufacture there cars,, our money is better spent on something else rather than there R&D

[Agile]

The end is niegh. The auto industry has shown its hand, and it is holding a gun. Guess what. With Abbott and his team it means that they have just blown their foot off. Shot themselves in the foot.

I wonder how the union forced them into THIS begging for a hand out position?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Agile

The end is niegh. The auto industry has shown its hand, and it is holding a gun. Guess what. With Abbott and his team it means that they have just blown their foot off. Shot themselves in the foot.

I wonder how the union forced them into THIS begging for a hand out position?

The union? How does Ford applying for R&D funding become the unions fault?

[1TUFFUTE]

I love ford....but if they want handouts without even building cars here......then it had better be one hell of a large buissiness here. One that supports other businesses and brings overal money too the govco....just like the car manufacturing did.
Can't see it working like that tho.
Maybe if they r adapting cars to suit local needs or building Eco or ground breaking stuff!!!

[Dodge]

if they can take our tax money we should be given shares so when the ****** rake in profits we all benifit , not the fat CEO who does sweet *** all

[FPV GTHO]

The manufacturing profits went offshore so why the big fuss over RnD?

Ford could apply for an arts grant or an applied science grant and it could go towards the same thing and nobody would be none the wiser.

[Trump]

Ford asking for funding for the R&D operation signifies one thing to me: the local R&D department is on borrowed time. Why would they pay engineers locally $70-80k when they can pay an Indian or Chinese engineer a tenth of that overseas...?

They weren't fooling me when they said R&D will stay.

[stevz]

What I don't understand is, the vehicles they develop will be sold globally in large numbers which equals profit and therefore funds for R&D. Why they even need assistance in this case is beyond me.

[pottery beige]

tell em to get stuffed

[Trump]

Originally Posted by stevz

What I don't understand is, the vehicles they develop will be sold globally in large numbers which equals profit and therefore funds for R&D. Why they even need assistance in this case is beyond me.

With Australian engineers, they would make lots of profit.

With Indian and Chinese engineers, they would make obscene amounts of profit.

With Australian dealers, they would make lots of angry customers

[superroo]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Why would they pay engineers locally $70-80k when they can pay an Indian or Chinese engineer a tenth of that overseas...?

Because by doing that you get less than a tenth of the quality.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by superroo

Because by doing that you get less than a tenth of the quality.

When the bottom line is all that matters, quality will take an inevitable back seat.

[zilo]

Taxpayer funds for a multinational to manufacture and sell overseas with profits going to the US?

dreamin' dreamin' dreamin'

[Dodge]

i need funding for my R&D rooting and drinking please give me 1 million dollars

[Wretched]

The nerve..

[Fordman1]

The writing is on the wall.

The growth in manufacturing volume at Ford in China and India over the next 5 years, and the growth in experience and engineering skills in those countries mean that R&D in Auatralia is doomed.

I'm tipping that Product Development in Australia will be gone in 2019.

[Franco Cozzo]

How about they GTFO and can take their R&D division with them, invest the money to the people of Geelong and Broadmeadows instead.

[au2000]

Hmmm funding for r&d huh?
And what will ford be producing here with the r&d work ? Oh that's right, making sure the mondeo can handle the Australian conditions !

Yeah I'd be surprised if they receive 1 cent for that

[SSD-85]

Im trying to ensure that this article is definitely what it says it is. Assuming that is the case, then this is just low.

Its like breaking someones legs & then having the audacity to ask them to carry you around all day.

[NX74205]

Wow. Seriously.

Ford may be stopping manufacturing in Australia, but they have not stopped contributing to the Australian economy by employing around 1100 Australians in its R&D department which will continue after the factory closures.

I fail to see why manufacturing jobs are put on some kind of pedestal when the fact that Ford designs cars for the world in this country is ignored. Ford are not abandoning Australia, they are employing talented Australians in its R&D department, and as such they have every right to ask for taxpayer funding.

Whether the government will, on the other hand, is an entirely different story, and given the way the Abbott government seems unwilling to support Holden, chances of Ford actually getting that handout is unlikely. But they have every right to ask.

[Hawkeye84]

Yeah if you pitch it like that, of course its stupid and unfavourable - "Ford still wants tax payers money for R&D even though they will cease production in 2016"

If the handout allowed Ford AUS to become a Global leader in R&D with best in class practices, created jobs, developed skilled workers, increase involvment in Universities/courses and made a significant contribution to the economy and its people, then why not!

I see alot of engineers, designers and those working in R&D leaving Australia and taking their skills and money to Germany, Italy and the US because there is no demand for them here.

Think beyond just the car and look at the bigger picture

[vztrt]

The R&D will yield a better return to the taxpayer then the manufacturing. There are suppliers out there (that also do the engineering for Ford) that have many more people on non Falcon/Terri projects. There is money for the Australian economy.

[xtremerus]

So R&D is wasting taxpayers money?
While we are at it, lets cut all R&D funding to Universities, Medical research
, CSIRO etc.
Then we will be a 'Clever Country '.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

So R&D is wasting taxpayers money?
While we are at it, lets cut all R&D funding to Universities, Medical research
, CSIRO etc.
Then we will be a 'Clever Country '.

You missed the point, it is R&D to a foreigner who sends all the profits back home.

The ones you mention are Australian.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by zilo

You missed the point, it is R&D to a foreigner who sends all the profits back home.

The ones you mention are Australian.

The money will get spent in this economy. Creating more money and a return. The profits will be from selling the vehicles.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by vztrt

The money will get spent in this economy. Creating more money and a return. The profits will be from selling the vehicles.

Every single business in Australia spends money in the economy. Does that mean everybody should be entitled to taxpayer assistance?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of taxpayer assistance to the automotive industry was to offset both the high cost of manufacture here and the lack of tariff protection?
Ford will be doing R&D here for cars which will be manufactured & sold overseas at a profit - If they are making a profit then they can afford to pay their own R&D costs, simple.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by stevz

Every single business in Australia spends money in the economy. Does that mean everybody should be entitled to taxpayer assistance?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of taxpayer assistance to the automotive industry was to offset both the high cost of manufacture here and the lack of tariff protection?
Ford will be doing R&D here for cars which will be manufactured & sold overseas at a profit - If they are making a profit then they can afford to pay their own R&D costs, simple.

The handouts the Falcon/Terri were getting were for R&D. It will bring more money in then manufacturing. Current Ranger was given $50million for R&D. Ford spend $600 million. Even if half spent went back into the economy its still good.

[DRU842]

Originally Posted by stevz

Every single business in Australia spends money in the economy. Does that mean everybody should be entitled to taxpayer assistance?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of taxpayer assistance to the automotive industry was to offset both the high cost of manufacture here and the lack of tariff protection?
Ford will be doing R&D here for cars which will be manufactured & sold overseas at a profit - If they are making a profit then they can afford to pay their own R&D costs, simple.

Yes; every business is entitled to R&D incentives but the definitions & ultimate payment, as with most things wrung from the Govt Bureaucracy, is a break even scenario, for most, at best. Historically R&D incentives have been paid by Tax Concessions but as you rightly point out, if your not paying tax on the output how do you get your R&D incentive share?
Your wrong to assume that the taxpayer assistance was was to offset the high cost of manufacture; it was always intended to allow investment by the local producers to be world competitive - there is a difference.
The type of protection you refer to; high cost of manufacture and lack of tariff protection, can be fought by taking Anti-dumping Actions, via Australian Customs - whether there is tariff protection or not. That is where a company/country exports below the cost that goods are sold in there own market, including protection/subsidies given for production. I am not aware of anyone ever having taken this step in the Australian auto industry.
There are 1200 or so Ford highly skilled / trained employees, for the most part (I take note of your avatar), using infrastructure, paying taxes, using local contractors etc.
How is this NOT what Australians people have sought since the 'Clever Country' pursuit from the 1980's? Why are we pushing more people through University and other forms of higher education; if not for these types of roles?
Just because you can not 'touch' the output doesn't mean it does not have value.