Ford EV business loses $1.3 billion in Q1 2024

[Syndrome]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a6...osses-q1-2024/

EVs are the answer to the question nobody asked.

[Franco Cozzo]

Its $15K more expensive than the market leader and its crap - Stevie Wonder could see this happening for the Mach E

[FTE217]

For now I consider EV crap period but to offer above the leader as mentioned is sheer stupidity coming to market.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dr Smith]

To offer some counter balance how long did it take Tesla to turn in a profit from its first days of building passenger car EV's...and that was during a period of virtually no competition, particularly from the Chinese ...?

Edit, found my answer...18 years to make a profit and even today Tesla earns billions from other auto makers through emissions credits.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/b...-earnings.html

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

To offer some counter balance how long did it take Tesla to turn in a profit from its first days of building passenger car EV's...and that was during a period of virtually no competition, particularly from the Chinese ...?

Edit, found my answer...18 years to make a profit and even today Tesla earns billions from other auto makers through emissions credits.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/27/b...-earnings.html

Interesting bloke Elon. Great TV program about Twitter last night.

I find it funny, the guy who is anti-Vax and anti-Woke Liberal sells most of his cars to the very people he hates.

I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to start a car company let alone a totally new technology car company.

FORD's going to do it tough.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Interesting bloke Elon. Great TV program about Twitter last night.

I find it funny, the guy who is anti-Vax and anti-Woke Liberal sells most of his cars to the very people he hates.

I find it funny that a bloke who supposedly is unflustered by criticism
is so triggered as to respond to anything negative said about him.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I find it funny that a bloke who supposedly is unflustered by criticism
is so triggered as to respond to anything negative said about him.

I could be wrong but from what I’ve seen I get the impression he does it with no ****s given to garner a reaction more than firing off unhinged comebacks. What are they gonna do, cancel him…
He was on the Joe Rogan podcast a few months back. A bit of a weirdo.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by smoo

I could be wrong but from what I’ve seen I get the impression he does it with no ****s given to garner a reaction more than firing off unhinged comebacks. What are they gonna do, cancel him…
He was on the Joe Rogan podcast a few months back. A bit of a weirdo.

I think you've got to be a bit unorthodox to be on that level, normal people aren't usually that successful

[kypez]

Ford are always going to struggle as they have to develop multiple platforms.

They should stick to ICE and hybrid for the foreseeable future. Then Chapter 11 the business and then emerge with Ford Blue or similar. Easiest way to manage it.

Having their feet in two camps isn't allowing for the efficiency of production they need to be profitable.

[jpd80]

A lot of Model E division “losses” are actual costs for those new battery and BEV production plants.
Yes, it’s true that Ford was counting on much higher sales of Lightning and Mach E but buyers are gone.

This is a case of the CEO Jim Farley pushing so hard on BEV that Ford has really snookered itself on vehicle programs.
It’s like every six months, they get a new better plan, only it’s not and heck, they must be flushing a ton of cash on
Electric vehicles they know are uncompetitive even before completion of development.

[Adamz Ghia]

They’re effectively starting a new company within an existing one. It’s going to lose money for a while. I really don’t see the headline.

[Syndrome]

How many EV models have Ford released so far?

EDIT. I found 5:

Mustang Mach-E
F-150 Lightning
E-Transit
All electric Explorer
All electric Tourneo

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

How many EV models have Ford released so far?

EDIT. I found 5:

Mustang Mach-E
F-150 Lightning
E-Transit
All electric Explorer
All electric Tourneo

The european ones that are using VW architecture as well.

- Explorer
- transit
- Puma is on the way

[FG50T]

I think that as much as people might like the idea of an electric car something different also appeals to them (Tesla, BYD, other). Something specifically EV where that company is ‘all in’ on it.

[kevino]

Not just sedans.
Farley last year or year before.
Quote-we are not playing in the two row suv market any more.
Translates to Escape not being replaced.

Memo to Ford-not everybody wants to buy Utes-Trucks.

[roKWiz]

Funny how back in the day Aussies were convinced by trend, peer, govco, we didn't need a local sedans and wagons, yet companies like Audi, BMW, Merc seem to sell these in volume.

Sad how FORD really has lost the plot.

Not everyone wants a SUV.

btw I like the new Audi wagon ad on telly.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Funny how back in the day Aussies were convinced by trend, peer, govco, we didn't need a local sedans and wagons, yet companies like Audi, BMW, Merc seem to sell these in volume.

Sad how FORD really has lost the plot.

Not everyone wants a SUV.

btw I like the new Audi wagon ad on telly.

What's telly?

Yes I know you're referring to TV but the only time I watch TV is for MAFS so that form of advertising doesn't reach me or most Gen Y/Gen Z.

The only way you'll reach me through advertising is through social media as that's the only place I see advertising.

Mind you we're probably not the market for Audi.

Then the only advertising I see is for female activewear because I follow like 500 female fitness influencers and swimwear models

[whynot]

I think one has to be really careful about using a cherry picked financial figure, and then jumping to a conclusion. Especially, cherry picked financials provided second hand. There are plenty of examples of financial reports that look great on paper (look no further than Qantas past annual reports) and make Wall Street analysts happy, but deeper down are pointing to long term structural problems.

The actual presentation is here.

https://s201.q4cdn.com/693218008/fil...-NO-SECRET.pdf

So, for sure, the Ford Blue division (classic ICE production) continued to make a profit while Model e division (electric) has continued to make a loss (page 21). However, it is interesting how much Ford Blue has slid backwards the last 12 months (more than Model e), reflecting the much tougher new car market in the USA with its excess inventories.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the USA tax treatment for business investment losses is much more generous in Australia. In addition, we don't have any insight into how Ford is carrying its losses from the EV division on its books, and whether Ford is in the process of offloading those losses right now or is holding onto some for a future date. We also have no insight into what expenditure Ford has loaded onto the EV division. (I have only a very superficial understanding of company tax in the US, but I think there are circumstances where a loss can be backdated three years and carried forward for five years.)

My read of it is that I think Ford is in a better position now than they were a few years back. The sunk costs for EV production will be written off. And while billions sounds like a lot of money, these guys think long term and strategically. Ford has grown its technology and manufacturing capability from ICE (and small PHEV volumes) to ICE, EV, and large PHEV volumes. EV production is a completely new way of building. Ford now has that capability in house. It should be able to better adjust production between all three streams, depending on market demand. EV and PHEV is complementary battery-engine technology, so it should be able to swing its design and manufacture between either as the market demands.

For example, all that is required is a war to break out in the Middle East resulting in fuel shortages, and customers will be clamouring for EV again. While there isn't much demand for it now, the F150 Lightning may be a very astute each-way bet for Ford in its home market.

The final point to all of those budding Nostradamus' out there ... customers are very fickle creatures. It is hard enough to predict the number of people who will use the local Maccas for dinner tonight, let alone predict the number of EV to be sold in five years time.

I think Ford have done well here.

[39ClevoUte]

Originally Posted by whynot

I think one has to be really careful about using a cherry picked financial figure, and then jumping to a conclusion. Especially, cherry picked financials provided second hand. There are plenty of examples of financial reports that look great on paper (look no further than Qantas past annual reports) and make Wall Street analysts happy, but deeper down are pointing to long term structural problems.

The actual presentation is here.

https://s201.q4cdn.com/693218008/fil...-NO-SECRET.pdf

So, for sure, the Ford Blue division (classic ICE production) continued to make a profit while Model e division (electric) has continued to make a loss (page 21). However, it is interesting how much Ford Blue has slid backwards the last 12 months (more than Model e), reflecting the much tougher new car market in the USA with its excess inventories.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the USA tax treatment for business investment losses is much more generous in Australia. In addition, we don't have any insight into how Ford is carrying its losses from the EV division on its books, and whether Ford is in the process of offloading those losses right now or is holding onto some for a future date. We also have no insight into what expenditure Ford has loaded onto the EV division. (I have only a very superficial understanding of company tax in the US, but I think there are circumstances where a loss can be backdated three years and carried forward for five years.)

My read of it is that I think Ford is in a better position now than they were a few years back. The sunk costs for EV production will be written off. And while billions sounds like a lot of money, these guys think long term and strategically. Ford has grown its technology and manufacturing capability from ICE (and small PHEV volumes) to ICE, EV, and large PHEV volumes. EV production is a completely new way of building. Ford now has that capability in house. It should be able to better adjust production between all three streams, depending on market demand. EV and PHEV is complementary battery-engine technology, so it should be able to swing its design and manufacture between either as the market demands.

For example, all that is required is a war to break out in the Middle East resulting in fuel shortages, and customers will be clamouring for EV again. While there isn't much demand for it now, the F150 Lightning may be a very astute each-way bet for Ford in its home market.

The final point to all of those budding Nostradamus' out there ... customers are very fickle creatures. It is hard enough to predict the number of people who will use the local Maccas for dinner tonight, let alone predict the number of EV to be sold in five years time.

I think Ford have done well here.

I think you will find that many auto manufacturers are required by some sort of laws, legislation or whatever to have ev style offerings in their inventory, even if they seriously don't expect to sell many. Otherwise there would be "penalties".

[Sprintey]

Update: story from Europe and petrol is back in fashion

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...lf-as-electric

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Update: story from Europe and petrol is back in fashion

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...lf-as-electric

It's a weird time, globally we came out of covid and endured supply problems on just about anything, which raised prices across the board, ..and now high interest rates are hurting many globally, the "cost of living" phrase is quoted on most news services around the world...one has to wonder if none of this happened and things had of been running globally "as normal as normal can be" with no extraordinary influences where would the ICE vs EV situation stand. Like all topics, the hard core zealots of both sides make the most noise first and carry more weight than deserved while the silent majority often have their lives effected while ideology is the prime driver rather than the more pragmatic, "what's best for the majority" that includes economic and environmental impacts...you need to always consider both.

I thought I read somewhere that some Ford bosses now admit cancelling high-volume low-margin vehicles probably wasn't the best decision...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

It's a weird time, globally we came out of covid and endured supply problems on just about anything, which raised prices across the board, ..and now high interest rates are hurting many globally, the "cost of living" phrase is quoted on most news services around the world...one has to wonder if none of this happened and things had of been running globally "as normal as normal can be" with no extraordinary influences where would the ICE vs EV situation stand. Like all topics, the hard core zealots of both sides make the most noise first and carry more weight than deserved while the silent majority often have their lives effected while ideology is the prime driver rather than the more pragmatic, "what's best for the majority" that includes economic and environmental impacts...you need to always consider both.

I thought I read somewhere that some Ford bosses now admit cancelling high-volume low-margin vehicles probably wasn't the best decision...

Well if they did, it’s been shouted down by Farley…


FORD CEO JIM FARLEY SAYS COMPANY LOST BILLIONS ON SEDANS
https://fordauthority.com/2024/06/fo.../#&gid=1&pid=1
I’d love to know exactly which cars lost Ford billions, maybe a lot of cash
down the gurgler on developing CD4 Lincoln MKZ, Continental, Taurus?

But then, Farley says sedans have aero advantage..

https://www.hagerty.com/media/lists/...33567fec781301


Also, Farley extolling the virtues and benefits of owning BEVs

Confessions From a Lifelong Petrol Head—I Love Electric Vehicles And It Has Nothing To Do With Politics by Jim Farley

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/confe...-farley-fc81e/


“The tipping point we’re working toward will come not from regulators who push us or from politicians who try to hold us back. It will come from consumers. Not when an arbitrary market share is reached, but when electric vehicles are simply better for more customers – better to drive, cheaper to own, and easier to integrate into daily life. This is the reality for millions already. “

The truest thing that can be said is that buyers will make up their own minds
and not be forced into a vehicle they’re not comfortable with…

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I thought I read somewhere that some Ford bosses now admit cancelling high-volume low-margin vehicles probably wasn't the best decision...

A Ford salesman said the same thing to me 5 weeks ago when I said that Ford had become the Ranger and Everest company.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Update: story from Europe and petrol is back in fashion

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...lf-as-electric

Pressure from Far-Right politicians and car makers have turned the boat, once again.

All i can see it doing is playing further into the hands of Tesla and the Chinese companies (BYD etc). When these OEM's start the electric again, they'll even further behind and require major public help or have to shut down.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Pressure from Far-Right politicians

Which politicians?

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Pressure from Far-Right politicians and car makers have turned the boat, once again.

All i can see it doing is playing further into the hands of Tesla and the Chinese companies (BYD etc). When these OEM's start the electric again, they'll even further behind and require major public help or have to shut down.

They're more likely to be seconded into making drones and munitions at the rate the world is going, nevermind the EVs.

Edit: politicians, French are voting as we speak, sportsbet has Trump at 1.57 currently so there goes the neighbourhood, again

[Crazy Dazz]

EVs were, and still are, very much "on trend."

People, and governments, wanting to make a statement, were eager to buy and show-off their Teslas. Teslas became the new Prius.

Ford was always going to face a challenge. They don't have the ecosnob factor of the Tesla, nor the "sure I'm a rich ****er, but I'm also saving the planet" factor of the expensive Europeans. Ford has to do, what it has always done, sell mass-market cars that offer decent value for money.

And if that market, the majority of owners just aren't prepared to pay an unrealistic premium for an Electric Car.

I'm been looking seriously at getting either an EV or a PHEV, purely for the tax advantages. But the absurd prices don't make sense.

[Sprintey]

If Ford were in such a position the price chart would begin to reflect that, and begin to uptrend above it's 30 week moving average. Not seeing this at present although Toyota is!

Hedgie Patrick Boyle has an overview of current EV situation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNfquYHvaCk

[kevino]

Explorer is Vw
Puma and Transit are stand alone Ford design Bev s

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by kevino

Explorer is Vw

So no money spent by FORD?