Ford Australia Nearly Closed For Good

Eaturbo · 27-10-2006, 05:42 PM

In the lastest wheels, Tom Gormon was interviewed and told wheels if it wasn't for the Australian Governments $100 Million injection of cash it was more than likely there would be no Orion (new Falcon). The best senario was that they would have done a major revamp of the BA/BF series as from AU to BA. The worst case was just to wind down the operations and stop production all together. Tom also said that this was a realitity and was looking more like the case as the business decision to build a new falcon did not add up. It wasn't until we had the government grant that Orion was given the full go ahead by Ford US. There was also the surgestion that the V8 was not a long term prospect and that it would be here for the next 2 or 3 years but beyond that was not a certainty due to the Boss v8's high weight low output compared to the Turbo 6 and lack of compeditiveness against the Holden /HSV engine, for the V8 to stay viable it would have to be another Engine more likely to be the Hurricane 6.2L engine.

Boy we came close to the end of an Era gentlemen, looks like the Old Government deserves a pat on the back for this one.

krt10 · 27-10-2006, 05:49 PM

wow. that would of been devastating. one of the few times that i will thank the government

Dilan · 27-10-2006, 05:52 PM

I guess we won't see much as the way of a good v8 in orion then?

xr8man83 · 27-10-2006, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilan

I guess we won't see much as the way of a good v8 in orion then?

in that article they also stated that they dont want to stop production of v8 falcons and that it was a mistake when they stoped making them in the late 80's early 90's. it also says that shutting down ford was just a option and that they were going to build the the orion and continue on and it says that they didnt have approval when that dissision was made. "we wern't going to pack up tomorrow and go away" was another quote from gorman.

I dont think that ford was as close to shutdown as the mag first makes out they just got some government assistance and there aint anything wrong with that just ask the ceo of holden who ever that mite be.

pertuan · 27-10-2006, 05:53 PM

That would have been bad for the industry. Definitely a good move by the government on that one.

Off topic but is the Boss really considered heavy for its class?

Eaturbo · 27-10-2006, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pertuan

That would have been bad for the industry. Definitely a good move by the government on that one.

Off topic but is the Boss really considered heavy for its class?

I dont know but with Iron Block and massive heads its got to be near 25% heavier than the Holden Motor. Holden use to say its V8 was lighter than our BA 6

uranium_death · 27-10-2006, 06:02 PM

If Ford Australia closed its doors, it really would be a sad day for Australian motoring. Probably the worst day ever actually.

The Falcon is a unique car and has been for almost 35 years.

Not even Holden can say that.

Forget all that crap about beer, vegemite and Holden cars. Sure, the name "Holden" may be Australian, but their flagship product has long been European based.

The Falcon. The REAL Aussie Icon.

And long live the King!

klawsterfobik · 27-10-2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

There was also the surgestion that the V8 was not a long term prospect and that it would be here for the next 2 or 3 years but beyond that was not a certainty due to the Boss v8's high weight low output compared to the Turbo 6 and lack of compeditiveness against the Holden /HSV engine, for the V8 to stay viable it would have to be another Engine more likely to be the Hurricane 6.2L engine.

So why don't they get competitive with HSV? Basic mods have shown it can be done. Baring that, 6.2L eh

needaXYGT · 27-10-2006, 06:17 PM

so what price they gonna slap on the new falcon? if it means keeping ford australia, then they can slap any price they want on it.
good move by government though.

BadMac · 27-10-2006, 07:46 PM

Good to see your tax dollars at work, proping up uncompetitive businesses. Would be a lot easier if people just bought the Fords themselves and subsidised Ford directly, rather than the governement taking $300 million, absorbing $200 million in burecracy and subsidising a private business with the other $100 million. If they had left the $300 million in your pockets you probably would have bought more cars and there would have been no need to pull Ford out of the crapper.

Also remember Ford will have a very lean next 18 months, the BF2 will not increase their market share, at best it will hold it, but more than likely (given Toyotas entry) they will lose market share. Also a lot of the current sales are to fleets at large dicounts and low margins, not good for the bottom line. Hope people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets again cause Ford may need it (here mister tax man is $10 bucks could you squander $7 of it and give $3 to Ford Aus).

PDIDDY · 27-10-2006, 08:01 PM

[QUOTE=BadMac]Also a lot of the current sales are to fleets at large dicounts and low margins,QUOTE]

Small margins have nothing to do with the manufacturer as they sell the product to the dealer at a pre-determined figure. The margin comes in at a dealer-customer level. So no matter what, the FoMoCo gets their money regardless.

:

S3SR · 27-10-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PDIDDY

Small margins have nothing to do with the manufacturer as they sell the product to the dealer at a pre-determined figure. The margin comes in at a dealer-customer level. So no matter what, the FoMoCo gets their money regardless.

:

i think you'll find that the prices are 'price protected' meaning if there is a price drop the dealers can also drop their prices and still win. same thing in retail/sales. just a heads up

also if ford started producing foci (focuses) locally then maybe theyd get more sales, i cant count the number of people i know who have ordered one but bought a swift/golf/polo/korean made junk 2/3/4/5 door death box.

i honestly could never see Ford going bust, but if they did I have one rare-ish car! go the Appreciation.

JC · 27-10-2006, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FALCONSR

i honestly could never see Ford going bust, but if they did I have one rare-ish car! go the Appreciation.

An SR appreciating in price? I don't think so.

The government has propped up and subsidised lots of industries over the years, Ford is just one car manufacturer they have helped. At various stages, they have also assisted Holden and Toyota. And generally it's not so much the government giving money to the industry, but reducing the taxes required to be paid by the manufacturer/industry etc. Except Farmers, who get between 300,000 and 500,000 per property because of the drought - I feel sorrier for them than a large car manufacturer!.

Eaturbo · 27-10-2006, 09:20 PM

[QUOTE=PDIDDY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

Also a lot of the current sales are to fleets at large dicounts and low margins,QUOTE]

Small margins have nothing to do with the manufacturer as they sell the product to the dealer at a pre-determined figure. The margin comes in at a dealer-customer level. So no matter what, the FoMoCo gets their money regardless.

:

The cars are sold to the dealer at normal price, but fleets and goverment have special pricing, the dealer than gets a rebate on the car after the sale from the manufacter but must keep all the paper work to support the claim. I use to work as a holden sales person and there was Government, Opel, fleet,national fleet and various others. All the rebates are paid at the end of the month as one lump sum and than Holden use to Audit us every 12 months to check claims, if you made a claim but did not have the relevant paper work from the government for that particular vehicle order holden would take that money back off you. Even when Holden offered Free Air Cond, you had to show the Air cond and than show it discounted to prove that you had passed on the discount, no discount and holden would say that you didnt pass it on and take the money off you again. I have heard of a dealer that had a
$200 000 bill after an audit from dodgy claims.

So no Ford dont get the same margin, most of the cars are fleet and with that way less margin

PDIDDY · 28-10-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

The cars are sold to the dealer at normal price, but fleets and goverment have special pricing, the dealer than gets a rebate on the car after the sale from the manufacter but must keep all the paper work to support the claim. I use to work as a holden sales person and there was Government, Opel, fleet,national fleet and various others. All the rebates are paid at the end of the month as one lump sum and than Holden use to Audit us every 12 months to check claims, if you made a claim but did not have the relevant paper work from the government for that particular vehicle order holden would take that money back off you. Even when Holden offered Free Air Cond, you had to show the Air cond and than show it discounted to prove that you had passed on the discount, no discount and holden would say that you didnt pass it on and take the money off you again. I have heard of a dealer that had a
$200 000 bill after an audit from dodgy claims.

So no Ford dont get the same margin, most of the cars are fleet and with that way less margin

Margins and Bonuses are different things. Bonus comes in when there is a runout or the manufacturer has an oversupply and needs to sell quickly. What you will find is that Fleet and Govt customers are not eligible for these bonuses, but they are subsidised in other ways. You are correct in as far as if the dealer does not make volume target, or paperwork is not correct, the the manufacturer will bounce the claims and the dealer wears the costs. :gren:

Tles · 27-10-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

Good to see your tax dollars at work, proping up uncompetitive businesses. Would be a lot easier if people just bought the Fords themselves and subsidised Ford directly, rather than the governement taking $300 million, absorbing $200 million in burecracy and subsidising a private business with the other $100 million. If they had left the $300 million in your pockets you probably would have bought more cars and there would have been no need to pull Ford out of the crapper.

Also remember Ford will have a very lean next 18 months, the BF2 will not increase their market share, at best it will hold it, but more than likely (given Toyotas entry) they will lose market share. Also a lot of the current sales are to fleets at large dicounts and low margins, not good for the bottom line. Hope people are prepared to put their hands in their pockets again cause Ford may need it (here mister tax man is $10 bucks could you squander $7 of it and give $3 to Ford Aus).

Uncompetitive? Falcon & Territory, Commodore, 380 and Camry, Aurion & eventually Kluger are universally regarded as among the very best value for money products in the automotive universe. Australia is the most diverse and competitive market and environment anywhere. Tariff reductions under the Button plan have ensured this. Arguably to the point of biasing the playing field in favour of imports.

Maybe it is appropriate that some of the squillions we pay in GST, Stamp duty and Luxury Tax goes back into propping up (your term) an Industry which employs and trains thousands of skilled manufacturing workers, engineers, designers, tradesmen, machinists, metal workers, die setters, virtually pick a job description and add to list - in equality and diversity friendly employment. Perhaps it is time for the OZ auto industry to be reckonised for the world class operations that they are.

A car itself is the ultimate embodiment of value adding. I reckon we should be using our resources here rather than shipping them to China and India to turn into steel, aluminium, plastic, etc. We should be keeping our skills and knowledge here to, using it for our advantage. Incorporating and utilising the International experience that the OZ auto companies have always offered.

On your second point, Ford and Holden are already trying to reduce the fleet dependency. This is to some extent margin based, but probably has more to do with supply and demand issues in the used market. The aim being to keep lifting the resale values and therefore making the cars cheaper to own and operate from new. Depreciation being the biggest and most hidden cost factor. Until you trade in that is. Simple free market economics: More supply than demand equals buyer gets cheaper, seller gets less or can't sell. Supply equals demand seller and buyer gets fair price.

Focused · 28-10-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

Good to see your tax dollars at work, proping up uncompetitive businesses. Would be a lot easier if people just bought the Fords themselves and subsidised Ford directly, rather than the governement taking $300 million, absorbing $200 million in burecracy and subsidising a private business with the other $100 million. If they had left the $300 million in your pockets you probably would have bought more cars and there would have been no need to pull Ford out of the crapper.

Great so we'll just sit back and let Ford go bust...

_

Eaturbo · 27-10-2006, 07:28 PM

just goes to show what goes on behind closed doors

cArSiK · 27-10-2006, 07:42 PM

I would expect this whole thing probably happened MANY years ago , late 90's early 2000's as Orion would have been in the early stages of devlopment then.

James

XR6TickfordBoy · 27-10-2006, 07:57 PM

well, lets hope the orion doesnt turn out to be the same situation as when the AU came out! There gonna have to pull out something special or that could be the end!!!

XR Martin · 27-10-2006, 08:24 PM

Unless Ford gets their act togther in regards to exports, I can predict them ending up like Mitsubishi.

I imagine the investment Holden and Toyota put in the the VE and Aurion/Camry was because of the large exports they now have. Ford has nothing close, and they've missed a great opportunity.

Aurion will make a big dent in Falcon sales, unlike the half assed effort of the Avalon.
I predict sub 3000/month sales for BF by early/mid next year.

ClevlndStemer · 28-10-2006, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Unless Ford gets their act togther in regards to exports, I can predict them ending up like Mitsubishi.

right on. I still really don't understand why they don't. Sure it may cost $$ initially to set it up but the benefits could be there. They really need to get some of the cars in the states, hard yes but c'mon the people in states like the look of the falcon and don't have anything like it there. There is potential for the falcon overseas but Ford US and AU don't see it.

Tles · 28-10-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

right on. I still really don't understand why they don't. Sure it may cost $$ initially to set it up but the benefits could be there. They really need to get some of the cars in the states, hard yes but c'mon the people in states like the look of the falcon and don't have anything like it there. There is potential for the falcon overseas but Ford US and AU don't see it.

Ford Crown Victoria sells against Statesman in most Falcon potential export markets. Also has cop market sewn up. Canada where it was built will soon drop to one shift building new small Lincoln so maybe the doors are opening.

US unions blocked us exporting onto their home ground but they seem to be copping a bigger flogging now than ever so may US is not totally out of the question.

Will not be exporting till Orion though as they are being openly engineered for LHD.

xr8man83 · 29-10-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caseterritory

Ford Crown Victoria sells against Statesman in most Falcon potential export markets. Also has cop market sewn up. Canada where it was built will soon drop to one shift building new small Lincoln so maybe the doors are opening.

US unions blocked us exporting onto their home ground but they seem to be copping a bigger flogging now than ever so may US is not totally out of the question.

Will not be exporting till Orion though as they are being openly engineered for LHD.

you would be suprised what does get exported i am fairly sure we export territory to some contries just not in big volumes

Tles · 29-10-2006, 11:25 AM

Territory to South Africa where Turbo is ST, New Zealand it's XR. Thailand too. Some went to China Motor Show. I know they are exporting and trying.

The comments were about the grants which are linked to promise from Ford Australia to pursue Left hand drive exports and support Australian suppliers. A large proportion of the grants are comitted to the development of Australia's largest product development facilities and rear wheel drive specialist centre.

05MkIIFutura · 29-10-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

C'mon the people in states like the look of the falcon and don't have anything like it there. There is potential for the falcon overseas but Ford US and AU don't see it.

The Orion platform is going to be compatible with LHD and RHD and is rumored to be the new platform for many Ford rwd cars in the US. On a american blog which reviews cars around the globe, a story on the Force 6 and 8 got some of these repsonses about the FPV Falcons:

"Since you won't bash them, I will. Which stupid moron told you not to sell it in the U.S.? Fire his ***." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Can you say Ford built BMW? Sweet!"

"I know this would sell,but Ford is going on past sales failures MERKUR,SHO TAURUS,AND CONTOUR SVT. And that is a damn shame. Ford, WAKE-UP OR RIP!!!!"

"I would be all over that if it were for sale here. Sadly it won't be available here and I guess I'll just have to buy something else."

"Your bold move is looking right at you Ford, time to get into gear." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Yet another great Ford product we don't get in America. Fusion SVT anyone?"

"I hate you Ford."

"There's no reason that they couldn't bring those vehicles over here and price them competitively (under $45k) with vehicles such as the Chrysler 300C SRT-8. Remember, this is a specialy, low-volume, high performance variant of one of their large sedans. Even if they didn't sell a ton of them, it would get people excited about their products again."

"someone should fire those that decided not to bring their best product in the homeland (US)" < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Does everyone in Australia have a bad *** sports sedan in their garage? There certainly seems to be no lack of them down there." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"I'm just amazed that no one at the senior management level in Dearborn thought, "we need to expand our car line but we don't have a lot of money to develop something new.... is there anything we can import?" And in Oz someone should have said, "we need to increase production and amortize our development costs from the new Falcon. Is there anyplace we can export this car to?""

These are the photo's they saw

And as far as i know, that $100million is specifically for the development of a new 6cyl engine to replace the current Barra I6

ClevlndStemer · 29-10-2006, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

The Orion platform is going to be compatible with LHD and RHD and is rumored to be the new platform for many Ford rwd cars in the US. On a american blog which reviews cars around the globe, a story on the Force 6 and 8 got some of these repsonses about the FPV Falcons:

"Since you won't bash them, I will. Which stupid moron told you not to sell it in the U.S.? Fire his ***." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Can you say Ford built BMW? Sweet!"

"I know this would sell,but Ford is going on past sales failures MERKUR,SHO TAURUS,AND CONTOUR SVT. And that is a damn shame. Ford, WAKE-UP OR RIP!!!!"

"I would be all over that if it were for sale here. Sadly it won't be available here and I guess I'll just have to buy something else."

"Your bold move is looking right at you Ford, time to get into gear." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Yet another great Ford product we don't get in America. Fusion SVT anyone?"

"I hate you Ford."

"There's no reason that they couldn't bring those vehicles over here and price them competitively (under $45k) with vehicles such as the Chrysler 300C SRT-8. Remember, this is a specialy, low-volume, high performance variant of one of their large sedans. Even if they didn't sell a ton of them, it would get people excited about their products again."

"someone should fire those that decided not to bring their best product in the homeland (US)" < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"Does everyone in Australia have a bad *** sports sedan in their garage? There certainly seems to be no lack of them down there." < THIS ONE IS GOLD!!!

"I'm just amazed that no one at the senior management level in Dearborn thought, "we need to expand our car line but we don't have a lot of money to develop something new.... is there anything we can import?" And in Oz someone should have said, "we need to increase production and amortize our development costs from the new Falcon. Is there anyplace we can export this car to?""

And as far as i know, that $100million is specifically for the development of a new 6cyl engine to replace the current Barra I6

Well that is positive but we just need the Unions to let the Falcons in.

Eaturbo · 29-10-2006, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

Well that is positive but we just need the Unions to let the Falcons in.

Maybe not, maybe share the development cost of the orion with the US and then let them build the car over there in there own Plants, I mean the problem is always about development and tooling costs, split the development cost and reduce componet cost by way of higher volume and just export to right hand drive nations

ozrunner · 27-10-2006, 10:34 PM

.. Tom Gormon was interviewed and told wheels if it wasn't for the Australian Governments $100 Million injection of cash it was more than likely there would be no Orion (new Falcon). The best senario was that they would have done a major revamp of the BA/BF series as from AU to BA. The worst case was just to wind down the operations and stop production all together.

Sorry Tom I don't believe that for a minute and its nothing more than a play up to the Govt so it will keep providing a nice small donation, otherwise we close shop. Yeah right, $100m is a pittance in the overall scheme of things for a car manufacturer and would not have meant a stupid decision to stay with an old model was possible.

He's saying Ford was going to produce a revamped BF for many years to come versus Holden, Toyota new models etc or at worst close shop altogether. Give me a break.

There was also the suggestion that the V8 was not a long term prospect ...........................due to the Boss v8's high weight

More BS as the US Ford GT uses a 5.4 with an all alloy block so get out the parts catolog Tom !!!. SVO Catalog p/n #M-6010-GT and $US2795 for the public so a mass order from Ford Oz would be a pittance. Put an all alloy 5.4 with a few more goodies in the Orion and look out HSV.

Tles · 27-10-2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Yeah right, $100m is a pittance in the overall scheme of things for a car manufacturer

Of course it's an open palm call. Spare a penny sir. But 100 million is also double Toyota Australia's 2005 profit on 4.5 billion in revenue. We all want this or that fixed or better in our cars yet we forget that the market is so small. These grants are tied to R&D and investment programs not just handouts.

I'd rather the car companies get the money than some lezo art performance theatre troupe etc. calling itself culture and not employing any regular people like car makers do.

Where does this tax money ripped out of your pocket come from? Sales taxes GST Stamp duty on your new car and tarriffs and payroll taxes. Car workers and suppliers wages too.

In saying that though, I think the Government should still remove sales tax charges for Safety Equipment such as DSC, ABS, Cruise, Reversing cameras, sensors, side airbags, all those things which make cars safer than they have ever been. Things that should be on every new car sold not just the Luxury spec. This should extend to replacement tyres, brake pads, roadworthies and so on. Money talks, real safety and car improvement walks.