Finally - 2nd Airport for Sydney

[cheap]

Hopefully this time it will happen!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...415-zqv0d.html

[Yellow_Festiva]

Personally, I disagree with a 2nd airport.

We just need to be smarter with how we use (or don't use) what we already have.

[Mechan1k]

Have fun landing and taking off during Autumn/Winter in the fog out there ... most mornings you can't see your hand in front of your face.

Then the fact the roads out there are average to poor at best.

[karj]

Coalition logic:

• Co-investment for manufacturing industries is bad... co-investment for infrastructure is good.
• Significant job losses in Victoria and South Australia from demise of auto-industry... so let's create 60,000 jobs in Western Sydney.

Abbott quote: "an airport for western Sydney"

Western Sydney... where elections are won and lost. Construction scheduled to begin around time of next federal election.

Politics...

[GasoLane]

Mascot and aircraft reminds me a little of Footscray and heavy vehicles.

Originally Planes landed at Mascot anytime, and Trucks drove through the Footscray industrial area 24/7.

Then the 'New Breed' of home owner bought houses there as they were lower priced than nearby suburbs. Mascot and Footscray were after all, relatively noisy areas.

The 'New Breed' then pestered anyone who would listen that something should be done about the noise pollution.

The rest, as they say, is history.

[cheap]

So I guess it must be OK for people living "out West" (Blacktown/Penrith etc) to have to drive hours to get to Mascot. Everyone in Sydney must be enjoying the traffic congestion too, Western suburbs business overjoyed having stuff funnel into and out of Mascot. And somehow it is perfectly OK to have unsustainable manufacturing jobs in Victoria/SA but it's bad to be creating jobs in Sydney

Someone remind me, how many people now live in the greater area of Sydney and geographically how big is Sydney. How many people live east of Parramatta and how many live West of Parramatta.

Did the alarm clock not go off, this may come as a shock - but it is 2014 not the 1950's.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by cheap

So I guess it must be OK for people living "out West" (Blacktown/Penrith etc) to have to drive hours to get to Mascot. Everyone in Sydney must be enjoying the traffic congestion too, Western suburbs business overjoyed having stuff funnel into and out of Mascot. And somehow it is perfectly OK to have unsustainable manufacturing jobs in Victoria/SA but it's bad to be creating jobs in Sydney

Someone remind me, how many people now live in the greater area of Sydney and geographically how big is Sydney. How many people live east of Parramatta and how many live West of Parramatta.

Did the alarm clock not go off, this may come as a shock - but it is 2014 not the 1950's.

So, the issue is one of transportation then (or lack thereof)?

Blacktown to the airport is less than an hr by train.

They can subsidise families in Western Sydney to keep them happy much the same as they did with the M4/M5 cashback scheme.

BTW... food for thought? Using public transport, whick trip is quicker? Vaucluse to the airport or Blacktown to the airport??

You may be surprised.....

We really have a mis-management of public facilities. This is obvious. We have a world class airport in a world class city strangled by shoddy transportation options and flight curfews that date back to who knows when (who does know actually?? Curious to find out how dated they are?).

Continually filling up a leaking bucket to keep it full doesn't solve the leak!

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Mascot and aircraft reminds me a little of Footscray and heavy vehicles.

Originally Planes landed at Mascot anytime, and Trucks drove through the Footscray industrial area 24/7.

Then the 'New Breed' of home owner bought houses there as they were lower priced than nearby suburbs. Mascot and Footscray were after all, relatively noisy areas.

The 'New Breed' then pestered anyone who would listen that something should be done about the noise pollution.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Thats interesting... Any idea when that all changed?

The new breed must have then got rich from the newly imposed curfew, watched prices shoot up, sold then moved to the block next to Luna Park to have a sook about the Big Dipper and 'all that noise'....

[cheap]

Ah the old public transport being used to get to the airport solution. I can see a few issues with Christmas season and families simply jumping on a bus/train with their luggage... And remind me where is the train station that services the international terminal at Mascot?

Blacktown to Badgery - say 20 minutes sounds a bit more reasonable than struggling with public transport.

It's called decentralisation, Parramatta became a city with many government offices relocating there. Sydney has moved beyond Martin Place and Mascot being the epicentre.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by cheap

Ah the old public transport being used to get to the airport solution. I can see a few issues with Christmas season and families simply jumping on a bus/train with their luggage... And remind me where is the train station that services the international terminal at Mascot?

Blacktown to Badgery - say 20 minutes sounds a bit more reasonable than struggling with public transport.

Dozens of countries and (and families) rely on public transport to get around. Including going to an airport.

What we need is better transport solutions and the reduction of the curfew. How will a 2nd airport help the people living in distant satelite cities that still require leaving from Sydney?

Sure, Western Sydney needs to be looked after but there are people that live much further out of the city and surrounding areas that use Sydney.

[2011G6E]

Simple...drop the stupid curfews on international airports.

You want to have the benefits of living in a major capital city? Then don't complain about a bit of aircraft noise.

Why the hell would you restrict what time flights from remote parts of the world...and most places are remote from Australia...are allowed to turn up?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Simple...drop the stupid curfews on international airports.

You want to have the benefits of living in a major capital city? Then don't complain about a bit of aircraft noise.

Why the hell would you restrict what time flights from remote parts of the world...and most places are remote from Australia...are allowed to turn up?

Sydney is huge and growing it has moved on, the one airport solution reached its use by date years ago. Have you driven through some of the surrounding suburbs under the approach paths you can literally count the rivets on the fuselage as the planes fly low. You expect people to live with this 24x7? These are not well to do suburbs either.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by karj

Coalition logic:

• Co-investment for manufacturing industries is bad... co-investment for infrastructure is good.
• Significant job losses in Victoria and South Australia from demise of auto-industry... so let's create 60,000 jobs in Western Sydney.

Abbott quote: "an airport for western Sydney"

Western Sydney... where elections are won and lost. Construction scheduled to begin around time of next federal election.

Politics...

You do realise that the first is taking out of private hands and into governments while the second is inviting private companies in to the space usually controlled/financed by governments i.e. infrastructure we all use.

The first dot looks a valid point but its not imo

[BLUEYBA]

Western Sydney already has some of the worst pollution and this will only add to it. With no sea breeze to blow the pollution away like Mascot its only going to get worse. Like stated before airports and fog don't mix

[Franco Cozzo]

At least you guys have some form of rail transport into the airport, here in Melbourne we have nothing, the only way in and out from the Airport to Melbourne is by the Tullamarine Freeway.

Its not so bad if you're coming from the other direction from central Victoria though, but a taxi ride from my town to the airport is around $100+.

[AndyXR6T]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

At least you guys have some form of rail transport into the airport, here in Melbourne we have nothing, the only way in and out from the Airport to Melbourne is by the Tullamarine Freeway.

Its not so bad if you're coming from the other direction from central Victoria though, but a taxi ride from my town to the airport is around $100+.

I live in Sydney and absolutely despise driving in and out of it, catching public transport in it etc, but Melbourne has an awesome system I rekon. You get off the plane, follow simple exit signs, once outside there is signage everywhere for buses taxis etc. Jump on a sky bus and away you go! I spent a week in Melbourne recently and did not get lost once. Lived in Sydney for the past 27 years and get lost in it every day lol

[2011G6E]

If you don't mind being the laughing stock of the world, fine, keep the curfew. However, if you pretend to be a cosmopolitan, modern city of international standing, then realise that they rest of the world goes 24/7, and people don't want to be limited in the hours they are allowed to travel.

A curfew from 10pm to 6am?
I wonder how much longer the need for a second airport could have been put off if they had the luxury of an extra eight hours a day to take off and land within...? That's the big question.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

If you don't mind being the laughing stock of the world, fine, keep the curfew. However, if you pretend to be a cosmopolitan, modern city of international standing, then realise that they rest of the world goes 24/7, and people don't want to be limited in the hours they are allowed to travel.

A curfew from 10pm to 6am?
I wonder how much longer the need for a second airport could have been put off if they had the luxury of an extra eight hours a day to take off and land within...? That's the big question.

Londons Heathrow, gatwick and stanstead have a curfews from circa 23:00- 06:00. and London is a real city too! with real public transport.
Cheers

JP

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Londons Heathrow, gatwick and stanstead have a curfews from circa 23:00- 06:00. and London is a real city too! with real public transport.
Cheers

JP

I'm sure having 3 airports helps greatly with a population around double of Sydney.

You may have your times wrong as well re the curfews, Just looked up Heathrow and they have arrival / departure info showing 3 planes landed at 5:05 and 5:25am.

Seems Heathrow is much bigger as well (5 terminals??) and around 170,000 more aircraft movements per year compared to Sydney.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by AndyXR6T

I live in Sydney and absolutely despise driving in and out of it, catching public transport in it etc, but Melbourne has an awesome system I rekon. You get off the plane, follow simple exit signs, once outside there is signage everywhere for buses taxis etc. Jump on a sky bus and away you go! I spent a week in Melbourne recently and did not get lost once. Lived in Sydney for the past 27 years and get lost in it every day lol

Melbourne is just a massive grid lol.

The problem is around the place, you either have to get someone to give you a lift to a train station, go to Southern Cross, find the Skybus place and get on, then it goes to the airport.

There is no rail into the airport, its only Skybus, taxi or VHA/B cars.

Or you can take your car to the airport and leave it at their car park and take out a second mortgage.

But trams are a pain in the *** too, on peak time its packed full of people, the Airport West tram can take 2 hours to get to/from its end at Elizabeth street in Melbourne to Airport West because it stops at like 700 stations on the way.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Or you can take your car to the airport and leave it at their car park and take out a second mortgage.

Whenever we've flown out of Tulla we always used Andrews Airport Parking. Not as expensive as the Airport and the shuttle bus takes you right to the terminal door and picks you up on your return.

[Road_Warrior]

They must have changed it, certainly when I lived there in 2005 there was a curfew at Heathrow. And definitely at Stanstead, because I (and 50,000 others) camped out overnight in the terminal to get the 6:00am redeye to Munich :

[Franco Cozzo]

I've seen their little mini bus on the Tullamarine freeway pretty regularly, there are a heap of parking places around Tullamarine who also offer a similar service.

Bendigo also offers a Melbourne Airport service out there lol.

[Stefan]

This ain't going to work.

Who will land their planes at two airports?

Why would international flights full of tourists want to land in Woop Woop?

Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar et al will land at only one airport. My guess is Mascot. Why would they spend money to set up in Badgerey's Creek too.

If it was a freight Airport only I can understand, BUT I'm sure freight would like to be close to Botany?

Money should be spent on useful infrastructure not another NBN, desalination plant...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Who will land their planes at two airports?

Until recently I believe Qantas and Jetstar used 2 Airports in Melb.

[ILLaViTaR]

Are they building it to accommodate for all the Chinese workers they've conjured up to come over here and replace us strayan workers with? Ever since they re-opened the 457 visa loophole and now this airport it's the ultimate opportunity for Chinese labour to tooker jerb.

[MITCHAY]

They should run international passenger/freight (24/7 if they can lift the curfew) out of Mascot and serve domestic from the new airport. Link it to the city by rail and perhaps a taxi/bus corridor.

[yearby]

I would think another airport would just be a 20th century answer to a 21st century problem.

The aircraft/airport scenario comes with a lot of problems, air pollution, noise pollution, aircraft congestion, vehicle traffic congestion, is subject to weather conditions, aircraft excessive fuel costs/usage. The airport will need a lot of valuable land and therefore will be designated to the outskirts away from where it most needed. And it will be limited when future expansion is needed. Then there is the problems for the passengers, traffic congestion getting to/from the airport, parking, departure check in times, weight limits, plane delays.

What is needed is a transport system that get people/goods into where they are needed, right into the heart of the city or depot or what ever, quickly with minimum delays. Something with no noise or air pollution, can be built into the cities infrastructure and has room for future expansion.

The only thing I can think of is something along the lines of a high speed train, not the trains we have today, but something along the lines of what the Japanese or Chinese have. The Chinese maglev train would be the be all and end all of trains and just a idea of what could be achieved. It travels at 270mph or 434km/h, covering the 20 miles (32km) from Pudong to the city outskirts in 7 minutes and 20 seconds, is on time 99.98% of the time. It uses electricity(no air pollution), extremely quiet (no noise pollution). And it gets the people right into the heart of the city. All you do is buy a $6 ticket and jump on board. You don't even need to wear a seat belt.

If expansion was needed, all that you would do is add more carriages/trains to the then existing lines. If future infrastructure included connecting all existing public transport and even all cities on the east coast, the aviation industry would not be able to compete on a cost/time/pollution level. There for there would be less congestion at existing airports. A win win situation for all.

Unfortunately management (including politicians) do knee jerk reactions without much foresight. So Sydney will get the new airport, unless people are willing to stand up against them. In Perth, (I think it was in the 80's) the government decided to dismantle the inner city railways because it was cheaper to use buses. People rallied against the decision, and the railways where rebuild but used electric trains, the electric trains proved so popular that they exceeded designed passenger capacity in 6 to 12 months (or something like that).

Just some food for thought.
Peter.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by yearby

I would think another airport would just be a 20th century answer to a 21st century problem.

The aircraft/airport scenario comes with a lot of problems, air pollution, noise pollution, aircraft congestion, vehicle traffic congestion, is subject to weather conditions, aircraft excessive fuel costs/usage. The airport will need a lot of valuable land and therefore will be designated to the outskirts away from where it most needed. And it will be limited when future expansion is needed. Then there is the problems for the passengers, traffic congestion getting to/from the airport, parking, departure check in times, weight limits, plane delays.

What is needed is a transport system that get people/goods into where they are needed, right into the heart of the city or depot or what ever, quickly with minimum delays. Something with no noise or air pollution, can be built into the cities infrastructure and has room for future expansion.

The only thing I can think of is something along the lines of a high speed train, not the trains we have today, but something along the lines of what the Japanese or Chinese have. The Chinese maglev train would be the be all and end all of trains and just a idea of what could be achieved. It travels at 270mph or 434km/h, covering the 20 miles (32km) from Pudong to the city outskirts in 7 minutes and 20 seconds, is on time 99.98% of the time. It uses electricity(no air pollution), extremely quiet (no noise pollution). And it gets the people right into the heart of the city. All you do is buy a $6 ticket and jump on board. You don't even need to wear a seat belt.

If expansion was needed, all that you would do is add more carriages/trains to the then existing lines. If future infrastructure included connecting all existing public transport and even all cities on the east coast, the aviation industry would not be able to compete on a cost/time/pollution level. There for there would be less congestion at existing airports. A win win situation for all.

Unfortunately management (including politicians) do knee jerk reactions without much foresight. So Sydney will get the new airport, unless people are willing to stand up against them. In Perth, (I think it was in the 80's) the government decided to dismantle the inner city railways because it was cheaper to use buses. People rallied against the decision, and the railways where rebuild but used electric trains, the electric trains proved so popular that they exceeded designed passenger capacity in 6 to 12 months (or something like that).

Just some food for thought.
Peter.

Peter, I love trains, greatest public transport Idea ever. but In australia we have such massive distances its hard to get them to stack up. In europe a rule of thumb is travel less than 500 miles (800kms') is quicker by high speed train, but above that distance the airplane takes over in speed and efficiency even once additional travel times, waiting times are taken into account. However in Australia most of our population centres are over 800Kms apart meaning center to centre air travel is still quicker, even agains the best city centre to city center train systems.


JP

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Peter, I love trains, greatest public transport Idea ever. but In australia we have such massive distances its hard to get them to stack up. In europe a rule of thumb is travel less than 500 miles (800kms') is quicker by high speed train, but above that distance the airplane takes over in speed and efficiency even once additional travel times, waiting times are taken into account. However in Australia most of our population centres are over 800Kms apart meaning center to centre air travel is still quicker, even agains the best city centre to city center train systems.


JP

That's true for capital to capital, but a high speed train would make the "in between" cities more attractive and a real alternative to the capitals.

It's quite easy, and economical to travel by plane between Sydney and Brisbane, what about Byron to Brisbane or say any of the larger towns between Sydney and Melbourne to go in either direction?