Hydrogen technology - will it ever be feasible?

RG · 24-01-2008, 07:11 PM

At work today I was looking at a big display by BMW that we have at the moment (I work at Federation Square) for their new "clean energy" hydrogen powered 7 series. I wandered through their marquee, which was very impressive, and then had a look at the "Hydrogen 7" which is due for release soon. Nice looking car and you can't pick it from a normal 7 series.

Then I saw the spec sheet. A near 6.0l V12 that gets less than 200k on hydrogen (marked as <200klm on their sheet) and 500k to 98ron petrol (duel fuel). Not real good I thought, then I saw the power specs. A measly 191kw and 360nm out of a V12, 0-60mph in the mid 9 sec zone. The thing weighs in at 2450kg. Not really impressive.

This got me to thinking that if you require such a huge engine to get about the same power as Ford do out of a base model 6 is this technology really ready for the public and will it ever be. How much better for the environment is this "hydrogen 7" if it can only get near 200k per tank of hydrogen and the rest of the time it has to run a V12 on normal petrol?

asusdragon · 24-01-2008, 07:18 PM

one day it will be feasible, just going to be a few years off, and yes alot better for the environment as the only waste is water really. the technology is only pretty new so i think once a few car manufactors get in on it, it will get better and better, lets got back what to when petrol engines first started coming out they were crap compared to todays std. what like 10kw lol as for weight the problem at the monment is storage and movement

Jeeepers · 24-01-2008, 07:29 PM

Early days of this technology, that Beamer you saw can be likened to the Model T when cars were starting to emerge for the average bloke. The biggest plus for Hydrogen is that it is the most abundant element known to us. So there should never be a shortage for this fuel.

cupic · 28-01-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORSMT

Early days of this technology, that Beamer you saw can be likened to the Model T when cars were starting to emerge for the average bloke. The biggest plus for Hydrogen is that it is the most abundant element known to us. So there should never be a shortage for this fuel.

So very true in yrs to come(hopefully not long)technology will grow to a point where you can but for under 30k ,but to me it will be 15yrs+ b4 this happens

Fordoldie · 28-01-2008, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cupic

So very true in yrs to come(hopefully not long)technology will grow to a point where you can but for under 30k ,but to me it will be 15yrs+ b4 this happens

I will say its a lot sooner than that. The technology is with us now. Just not many know it and others dont want you to know it

Bossxr8 · 30-01-2008, 05:39 PM

Its stored at -253 degrees, so its pretty damn cold. Because its so cold it will evaporate the whole tank in 6 days if not driven, there are 2 vents that vent the gas off if the hydrogen liquid has warmed up. Those vents also work if its ever in an accident to prevent explosion. They even rammed it with a truck and it didn't explode. The storage tank has 40 layers of insulation and its believed it would take ice 13 years to melt if placed inside the tank.

RG · 24-01-2008, 07:34 PM

I must admit that they do sound cool when they fire up.

xtremerus · 24-01-2008, 08:01 PM

Hydrogen fuel cells producing electricity in electric cars is the only viable way of using hydrogen for transport.

Producing hydrogen gas for internal combustion engines is a waste of time and energy, as it takes more energy to produce the hydrogen than the energy that you get out of it by burning it. Unless that energy comes from nuclear, wind or solar.
Think how many wind, solar or nuclear plants would be needed to be used just to produce hydrogen only for the millions of cars in the world.
And that is without even thinking about the storage and transportation of the stuff.

asusdragon · 24-01-2008, 08:26 PM

though how money/energy is spend on drilling for oil refineing etc etc and we are soon going to have to drill deeper and deeper to get to it, so i think it would be bout par after a while, we store and transport the stuff everyday already

Jeeepers · 24-01-2008, 08:31 PM

We also have to realise that we are guaging this fuel's feasibilty on today's technology. Not so long ago solar energy was expensive to tap into. But with collector panels become smaller and more efficient, this energy is becoming cheaper and more widespread. We have to look to the horizon, not at our feet.

RG · 24-01-2008, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORSMT

We also have to realise that we are guaging this fuel's feasibilty on today's technology. Not so long ago solar energy was expensive to tap into. But with collector panels become smaller and more efficient, this energy is becoming cheaper and more widespread. We have to look to the horizon, not at our feet.

True but when compared to a company like SAAB who have cars that run on 85% ethanol hydrogen just doesn't make too much sense to me.

gz1 · 24-01-2008, 08:48 PM

Probably non-PC but BMW (German) + Hydrogen conjures up images of the Heindelberg. I can't help it, I just get that image every time.
And by that I don't mean to imply that hydrogen won't be feasible, or that BMW don't know what they are doing, quite the opposite.

rodderz · 24-01-2008, 09:09 PM

A guy my brother works with is developing a hydrogen system for his old mazda, there is an abundance of info on it on the web as he has printed out a huge folder worth of info and diagrams.

He used PVC plumbing fittings for his chamber and bits and pieces from an old kettle, but his main problem is where to store the water.

The system isnt working for the car yet but he is running it on current setupwith water injection, saving over 25% in unleaded fuel.

Daymoe · 24-01-2008, 09:16 PM

Imagine having a smash with a full tank of Hydrogen O_o. I would have thought that mileage would have been equal if not better due to how "explosive" the fuel is?

Bossxr8 · 26-01-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Imagine having a smash with a full tank of Hydrogen O_o. I would have thought that mileage would have been equal if not better due to how "explosive" the fuel is?

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

Daymoe · 26-01-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

Oh okay, thats nice to know ;)

Whats the temperature the hydrogen is stored in the tank?

Bossxr8 · 28-01-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90sFTW

Oh okay, thats nice to know ;)

Whats the temperature the hydrogen is stored in the tank?

Pretty sure its very cold, not exactly sure though.

theunfairadvant · 28-01-2008, 11:51 AM

I could be wrong about this,
isn't dry ice part of hydrogen as well?

Daymoe · 28-01-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Pretty sure its very cold, not exactly sure though.

Yeah, i don't think you could store it at normal temp without it exploding in the cause of an accident.

Get them to shoot the tank with an M82 Barrett sniper rifle, that gun can punch through armour easily.

RG · 26-01-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

BMW have tested the hydrogen tank by shooting it, trying to blow it up and by setting it on fire, and it hasn't exploded, so they are pretty confident it won't explode in a massive fireball during an accident.

But they don't know how to put it out in the event it does go up. If one of these cars have an electrical fault and catch fire there is a massive problem. MFB are also unsure on what to do and will have to just "let it burn".

Before anyone flames me I got this information directly from BMW and the MFB.

S3SR · 24-01-2008, 09:18 PM

the hardest thing IIRC was storage of hydrogen

the advantages of course is the only bi-product is pure H20, dont know how accurate that is, could also solve our water shortage problems LOL two birds with 1 stone

im not sure how much hydrogen would cost per litre but it had better be damn cheap or come with a rebate for being environmentally friendly, otherwise im buying a diesel truck and getting my monies worth

xbgs351 · 25-01-2008, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S3SR

the hardest thing IIRC was storage of hydrogen

the advantages of course is the only bi-product is pure H20, dont know how accurate that is, could also solve our water shortage problems LOL two birds with 1 stone

im not sure how much hydrogen would cost per litre but it had better be damn cheap or come with a rebate for being environmentally friendly, otherwise im buying a diesel truck and getting my monies worth

Not so.

25-01-2008, 12:50 PM

My own little project on this subject >>hydrobattery<<

rodderz · 25-01-2008, 12:01 AM

From memory doesnt it emit a smelly gas, as it separates the H2 and O?

theunfairadvant · 25-01-2008, 01:04 AM

It will take another 10 or 30 years before it will be feasible
for Hydrogen Technology.

XCSEDAN · 25-01-2008, 01:38 AM

the stuff is a joke, take into account the chemicals used in production and they are MUCH worse for the envirornment then a F250!!! (over 10yrs/220,000km)

ABoringUsername · 25-01-2008, 12:37 PM

In the future, in a fuel cell. I would say the water would probably be released in vapour form. cooling the exhaust to liquid would be difficult. You could use excess energy during periods of high wind/solar generation to produce it, when wind penetration gets high enough for this to be a problem.

ltd · 25-01-2008, 05:33 PM

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

RG · 25-01-2008, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

Had a closer look at one today and noticed a nice little warning sticker near the headlight switch. Read along the lines of "For outdoor parking only".

Piotr · 26-01-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltd

Hydrogen will NEVER be an economic option until it is made using nuclear powered stations. To make Hydrogen takes an immense amount of electricity through electrolysis and therefore is environmentally worse for pollution when coal powered stations are the supplier.

As for smashing with a hydrogen tank; think Hindenberg.

The Hindenberg was on fire for so long because the canvas caught on fire. The Hydrogen was burnt in a second or so