"Ground-breaking" asbestos finding.

Nostalgia · 21-02-2008, 09:36 PM

Taken from Geelong Advertiser 21/02/08.
FORD could be wide open to massive asbestos compensation claims following a landmark court ruling, Geelong lawyers said yesterday.
The car manufacturer could be subject to class actions similar to those against building supplier James Hardie after the Blue Oval was found negligent in a "ground breaking" Supreme Court Of W.A case.
Ford Motor Company was ordered to pay Perth motor mechanic Antonino Lo Presti $840,000 after contracting asbestosis in 2001 from working with brake pads in the 1970s and 80s.
The court heard Mr Lo Presti was working in Ford dealerships without protective equipment, ventilation or warnings, long before asbestos was banned in 2003.
He now spends 24-hours a day on oxygen, helpless and almost immobile, under the care of his wife.
Ford Australia declined to comment but is reportedly considering an appeal. Yesterday, Slater and Gordon Lawyers said the case would allow thousands of former automotive workers exposed to asbestos to seek compensation. Geelong lawyer Danny Connor said the WA court's decision set a precedent for lawyers' legal framework in arguing cases.
He said Ford knew the deadly risks but failed to warn their workers who were exposed on a daily basis.
"It sets the precedent to another class of worker who have been exposed to asbestos at work so it's ground breaking in that regard," he said.
"Ford is one of the two largest vehicle manufacturers in Geelong and probably used alot of this type of material until it was banned in 2003."
Mr Connor moved to Geelong after working with the law firm's asbestos department in Melbourne.
He said future automotive industry asbestos claims could rival those from workers fighting for compensation from James Hardie, such as the recently deceased Bernie Banton.
"Potentially when you think of the number of cars sold in the Australian market and worked on by mechanics - unfortunately but possibly," Mr Connor said.
"But by the time a worker has contracted the illness it's going to take their life away so time is of the essence.
In a release yesterday, Mr Lo Presti said asbestosis had "ruined my life". I can now only walk short distances and my breathlessness is getting worse. I can no longer provide for my own family," he said.

RATT · 21-02-2008, 09:44 PM

He work at a Ford dealer not Ford according to what you've posted.

Nostalgia · 21-02-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RATT

He work at a Ford dealer not Ford according to what you've posted.

Im just writing word for word what was in today's Geelong Advertiser mate.

RATT · 21-02-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NostalgEA

Im just writing word for word what was in today's Geelong Advertiser mate.

I knew what you meant don't worry!

Nostalgia · 21-02-2008, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RATT

I knew what you meant don't worry!

Cheers mate, i took it the wrong way. Sorry.

dom_105 · 21-02-2008, 09:48 PM

I thought the responsibility, and therefore the accountability, would have lied with the brake pad manufacturers.

Nostalgia · 21-02-2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_105

I thought the responsibility, and therefore the accountability, would have lied with the brake pad manufacturers.

Grey area as Ford knew of the danger and obviously neglected to fit their service departments out with the appropriate equipment. As stated previously, i have just posted word for word what was in today's local paper.

LUXO_8 · 21-02-2008, 09:56 PM

i'd imagine ex employees of other manufacturers service departments will follow suit here... it used to happen all the time

JMO · 21-02-2008, 11:26 PM

Shouldn't it be up to the dealerships owner to supply the proper equipment etc and therefore be liable if its not provided?

FlipXW · 21-02-2008, 11:30 PM

Its in clutches too. I wouldnt be suprised if its still used in brake pads now. Im pretty sure anyone who has changed a set of pads before would have been exposed. I dont really see how its fords problem? Shouldnt it rest within the pad manufacturer.

JMO · 21-02-2008, 11:33 PM

I've done mine before, as have a lot of people on here. I hope to God that I won't be affected, especially after seeing what Bernie went through...

FlipXW · 21-02-2008, 11:39 PM

We always collect the dust from the pads and the inside of drums in a rag and throw it straight out. That way it doesnt blow everywhere.

MarkIV · 21-02-2008, 11:44 PM

The timing of this is a coincidence - not! There seems to be a real anti-Ford thing going on the moment.

Its enough to get a conspiracy theory happening.

trick_xd · 22-02-2008, 12:07 AM

I have been doing brakes for a long time and the worst is drum brakes ... even worse when you have to blow out the linings the dust goes everywhere and hangs around.
about 5 years ago we where told that we had to get a yellow 44gal drum and ALL brake pads and clutches MUST go into it , then they just charge us 180$ to empty the drum.

Knowing more now then what I did then ...... I would be really ****ed if I had asbestoses.

fmc351 · 22-02-2008, 12:36 AM

It will be Fords problem because it was likely new Fords the guy was working on, Ford selects and fitted the parts in the factory so its Fords choice. The dealerships and servicing can easily be argued should have been in Fords mind when deciding which parts to fit. Whereas its harder for the employee of a dealer to establish whether a duty of care exists (technical, not so straight forward as it seems) as in is there a nexis between the pad manufacturer and the mechanic. Id argue this could be done, but not as easy as with Ford, and the manufacturer may no longer exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trick_xd

I have been doing brakes for a long time and the worst is drum brakes ... even worse when you have to blow out the linings the dust goes everywhere and hangs around.

Bingo. How many workshops used to just blow it out with the air line and circulate that crap all over the workshop? May as well have been Bernie shoveling the crap theres that much particles in the air.

asusdragon · 22-02-2008, 01:57 AM

i think you will find all break pad had asbestos back then up till the early 90's even though know a days its not in there, i think it is why we get so much break dust on the wheels, this is going from a mate who works for a big break pad and clutch distributer

IDT · 22-02-2008, 02:05 AM

People still find it hard to believe that you breath the stuff in just once and years later you could be paying the price. They even had a story on the news lately about all these people doing home renovations getting asbestosis or what ever its called (cancer). This is one disease that we woint here the end of for at least a generation

Keepleft · 22-02-2008, 04:26 PM

In clutches, in pads used on cars (up to 2003) and I think - those used on trains and trams??? Lifts?

Can of worms era.

RIPGMH · 22-02-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

In clutches, in pads used on cars (up to 2003) and I think - those used on trains and trams??? Lifts?

Can of worms era.

Yep, we replaced a 2.5m diametre clutch which had friction pads made from abestos a couple of years ago. The clutch material was about 6 years old.

Laminge · 22-02-2008, 04:52 PM

17 post and no mention to the health of this poor bugga.

I price on human life is no where near this settlement figure, nothing defines the fact that you are a breath closer to death.

The joy I would have dealing with these white collar knobs who made the call to keep the hazards hidden to its employees for a sake of a dollar.

No hesitation in supporting this move if it means making someone accountable, some of you will never understand the destruction this causes the individual, the family and the toll it takes in generations to come.

Watching someone die of cancer, a slow painful death in this case, is one of the worse things in life.

**Kingsley** · 22-02-2008, 05:40 PM

Watching someone die of lung cancer is heartbreaking. I feel for him and his family. The money will mean little.

But the questions got to be asked, how far will this go? I know a lot of us older guy's over the years worked in workshops where it was common practice to blast the dust out of brakes with air pistols, lived or worked in buildings that were built using abestos etc etc. Nobody wore PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) back then, because it either wasn't widely availbale, or there was no information readily available on how harmful this stuff was.

fmc351 · 22-02-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingy351

But the questions got to be asked, how far will this go? I know a lot of us older guy's over the years worked in workshops where it was common practice to blast the dust out of brakes with air pistols, lived or worked in buildings that were built using abestos etc etc. Nobody wore PPE (Personal Protection Equipment) back then, because it either wasn't widely availbale, or there was no information readily available on how harmful this stuff was.

There is a point at which this was true, after that it became a matter of ignoring the issue and sweeping it under the carpet while continuing to use the product, or failing to do anything about its removal etc. No, it wasnt 2003, we have been aware of the dangers of asbestos for as long as Ive been alive, Ive always known it was dangerous and Im no 'scientician'.

With no way of knowing the problems, then liability is much harder to prove and relies on other reasoning. In this case, and most others, there was willful negligence on behalf of employers/companies to continue on as always due to economics rather than accept they need to implement sometimes expensive solutions to ensure the safety of those they expose to the danger, including the general public walking past said workshop where the dust is flying out the door as its just been hit with an air gun.

XR Martin · 22-02-2008, 06:36 PM

Its been known since the 30s of the dangers. But asbestos was a wonder fibre that could be used in just about anything, and there was no suitable replacement.

I imagine the deaths from crappy overheated brake pads would be greater than deaths from the asbestos.

schnoods · 22-02-2008, 07:26 PM

Exactly.

Asbestos is a wonderful product, brake pads, clutches, fireproofing (fire blankets, insulation, etc) and the like.

Just for the record, it isnt as harmless as what people may think, you could eat it and be a ok. Its only breathing in the fibres that will cause the damage. Has an incubation period of around 15-50 years so who knows when it will affect anyone???

I went to primary school that contained asbestos insulation, started year one only 18 years ago.Who knows if it will affect me or any of the other kids that went to that school?

One things for certain though, asbestosis is a terrible thing, seeing one suffer it, i wouldnt wish it upon my worst enemy. I just hope this is an isolated case.

Nostalgia · 22-02-2008, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnoods

Exactly.

Asbestos is a wonderful product, brake pads, clutches, fireproofing (fire blankets, insulation, etc) and the like.

Just for the record, it isnt as harmless as what people may think, you could eat it and be a ok. Its only breathing in the fibres that will cause the damage. Has an incubation period of around 15-50 years so who knows when it will affect anyone???

I went to primary school that contained asbestos insulation, started year one only 18 years ago.Who knows if it will affect me or any of the other kids that went to that school?

One things for certain though, asbestosis is a terrible thing, seeing one suffer it, i wouldnt wish it upon my worst enemy. I just hope this is an isolated case.

I hear you mate. We too have lost a loved one recently to asbestosis. As for this being an isolated case, i dont think so. The flood gates are just rattling at the moment but eventually they will burst open.

fmc351 · 22-02-2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Its been known since the 30s of the dangers. But asbestos was a wonder fibre that could be used in just about anything, and there was no suitable replacement.

I imagine the deaths from crappy overheated brake pads would be greater than deaths from the asbestos.

Yeah, but you can use the product in suitable applications and safeguard the poor ba5tard changing the brakes at the workshop. Its a failure to safeguard the mechanic that cost them, not the use of the product per se. There are ways to manage it in applications where it is irreplaceable, if youre going to utilise the product, you have to take steps to minimise exposure of all those potentially exposed. Failure to do so, should cost you directly in a manner that outweighs the benefits of cost cutting along with any compensation to the victims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by schnoods

Just for the record, it isnt as harmless as what people may think, you could eat it and be a ok. Its only breathing in the fibres that will cause the damage. Has an incubation period of around 15-50 years so who knows when it will affect anyone???

There was a guy defending DDT (or roundup, cant remember which) who had a similar argument that he could drink water from the same cup used to measure ??DDT??. He died from the complications that he was arguing werent an issue.

Id like to see someone take a bite with no risk of breathing in a particle, and thats all it takes, one particle. In fact technically you can breath the particles in all day and have no issues, as long as they all come back out again. Its the one that gets lodged in there that kills you.

As for the schools, yeah, same today for our kids. Its time they woke up and got motivated instead of vacuuming roof cavities and encapsulating the asbestos sheets in paint. Its a start, but not good enough for the 70+ years theyve known about it. Apart from the compensatory requirements of families, there is the social need for these lawsuits in order to prevent further cases. Lawsuits like this are needed, the monetary costs imposed need to outweigh the savings from doing nothing or the company in question will place a value on life, and that price will be whatever value is in the benefit of doing nothing.

The courts must place a price on life, they are forced into the ugly situation of doing so in order to try and balance the scales for the family in a meaningful way. Courts are loathed to do so believe me, but it is all they have.

Geez Louise · 22-02-2008, 07:40 PM

One of my friends dad died of Asbestosis back in the 80's. He worked fitting brake pads, tyres etc. It is a horrible thing to watch someone die from and it is horrible for the families. They knew the dangers back then just as they do now.

It takes forever for compensation claims through the courts and by the time that cases do get settled...it is often too little too late.

I do not think this is an issue that will be resolved quickly. The big companies want to protect there profits and can afford to drag cases out in court for years and years.

We will all hear more about this for years....

10secondET · 22-02-2008, 11:45 PM

most people who worked on brake systems and clutch setups new there was asbestos in them, if you dont want to die from it dont work with it, i see this like smoking as it leads to the same deal in the end it up to yourself, if you wana work with it cop the concequences.

blownba · 23-02-2008, 01:45 AM

I have been dealing with asbestos pads and clutches and other things all my working life untill only 3 years ago when it was banned.
When I first started as a apprentice there were no real warnings about but soon enough all the warnings were there, never blow dust off brakes ect with air blower as breathing fibres in MAY be dangerous. But about the same time liquid brake cleaning products started to show on the market and before that we always washed with water or vacuumed the fibres.

Its only the last 5 years that such a fuss is being made. My workshop is next door to a asbestos removal company and the way they are regulated is amazing. They do alot of work for the government removing the stuff from public buildings, hospitals and the like. BIG money in that let me tell you.
The owner told me the other day that on a staion in Melbourne one of the gaurds lost the key to the safe, so they called in the locksmith and he drilled the lock out BUT there was asbestos in the door, It would have been a tiny amount, but the union got hold of it and shut all the stations down till the agreed to remove all the safes from the stations. And my neighbour has the contract to remove them.
They also got the names and numbers of all the people on the station and wanted them (The removal company) to go to all of their houses and vacuum and clean out their clothes dries and washing machines!!!!
Now thats just bloody nuts. You would of picked up more asbestos fibers (and probably still do) walking next to any busy intersection where asbestos brake pads have been ripped apart there for years. How bloody stupid.
I am glad that finally they are having a look at the mechanics that have dealt with it. For too long its just been about the James Hardy workers (and I do feel very sorry about them, don't get me wrong) when mechanics would have been dealing with 20 times that amount all their working lives. It won't matter for me though cause I smoke like a chimmeny.

feebs · 23-02-2008, 02:18 AM

some insurances compaines stopped insuring asbestos workers in 1918.

It is a tradegy that we kept using it to such an extent, ships, houses, space suits, cars. etc. there was no substitute product for insulation,, and probably still isn't.

In wa there are entire suburbs with asbestos houses/ fences and schools.. not to mention a town that has now been stricken off the map.

Many goldfields nickel mines have a level of asbestos contamination.. but this level is lower than being in the middle of the cdb on a calm day (or at least it was in the late 80's).