Inaccurate speeding fine: What can be done?

Woz · 23-09-2008, 06:56 PM

Alright, I have a bit of a dilemma.

I was driving down Eastlink yesterday afternoon in a work truck, cruising along without a drama when this little, green Camry came flying up behind me and hit the purple flashers from behind the grill. VicRoads!

Pulled over to the side of the road, jumped out to see what was going on and the first thing the bloke said was "Is this thing speed limited?" My answer: not that I know of. Next, he explains that he caught me doing 119km/h in a 100 zone. $227 and 3 demerit points. Wasn't interested in saying, or listening to, anything else.

My problem? There's no way I was doing 119km/h. Not in a fully loaded bitumen truck on flat ground. I admitted that I may have been doing over 100km/h (over the last few k's the speedo had floated from between 95-105), but the needle never got to, or went past, 110km/h.

Yet, somehow, this bloke reckons he followed me for 3,008m at an average speed of 119km/h. An average speed? Which to me says that I either sat on 119km/h the whole way, which would have most likely meant me getting backhanded by the truck operator sitting in the seat beside me, or I gave it one hell of a squirt that saw me float from 100km/h to roughly 138km/h with 119km/h being tucked neatly in the middle (therefore = average speed). That's how I see it.

But with over 9tonne of gutless Isuzu, on a flat section of freeway, 138 is nowhere near reachable. Ever. With our trucks being driven to every corner of the country, blokes have tried. 120-125km/h is roughly top speed in that sort of scenario. And that's fighting hard to get to that speed.

Yet, this bloke wasn't interested. 119km/h was his speed. Detected and alleged. $227 and 3 demerit points. If I'd been fined for doing somewhere between 100-110km/h I wouldn't have even worried about the fine, just paid and gone on with life. But this fine is absolute rubbish. Now, being in a work vehicle, this has presented a bit of drama.

My question is this: What can I do to argue it? It's not right, I know this. The bloke sitting beside me knows this. The bloke from VicRoads wasn't interested in listening to a word either of us had to say. I also didn't think to ask to see any reading or anything until today. Now, I'm a little bit stressed trying to suss out what can be done.

Little help?

Lightning Strike GT · 23-09-2008, 07:03 PM

Are Vic Roads leagally entitled to issue speeding infringements I thought it was only the Police with calibrated speed detection equipment
I know they can issue safety defect notices well they can here in QLD but Vic is another state
Good luck in your persuit of freedom and justice

Falcon_Crazy · 23-09-2008, 07:08 PM

Any fne can be appealed. Didnt realise VIC Rds could fine you - thought either cops or cameras.

What "evidence" did they have? A digital read out from GPS?

I recommend you make some enquiries with VicRoads, not admitting anything and possibly speak with a lawyer.

rocket67 · 23-09-2008, 07:20 PM

You have a bit of a problem.

If you fight the B/S fine it will cost you more than the fine is worth.

Had the same problem last year while on holiday in Tassie. Cop pulled me up near Devonport and gave me a fine for speeding. No way was i over the limit!
Think he realised i was driving a rental car - and therefore fair game.

Guess he needed to get his quota for the day.

I paid up rather than go through the crap.

Rocket.

Woz · 23-09-2008, 07:24 PM

Other problem is, there was no P plates up on the truck. Also a 3 point fine. Can't argue that one. But two 3 point fines add up to 6 points. Being on P plates leaves me with 5 points to start with (all of which I currently have) and as we all know, 5 minus 6 equates to not a great deal. So, I'm very interested in challenging this.

FGII-XR6 · 23-09-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Other problem is, there was no P plates up on the truck. Also a 3 point fine. Can't argue that one. But two 3 point fines add up to 6 points. Being on P plates leaves me with 5 points to start with (all of which I currently have) and as we all know, 5 minus 6 equates to not a great deal. So, I'm very interested in challenging this.

you're lucky you didn't get done for driving a 9ton truck you are a P Plater FFS and a 9 ton truck requires either an MR or HR licence depending on axle configuration . you can not drive these on P plates and you were actually unlicenced for that vehicle at the time . just think your self lucky and stop whinging

Woz · 23-09-2008, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

you're lucky you didn't get done for driving a 9ton truck you are a P Plater FFS and a 9 ton truck requires either an MR or HR licence depending on axle configuration . you can not drive these on P plates and you were actually unlicenced for that vehicle at the time . just think your self lucky and stop whinging

Well done, mate. Your criticism is much appreciated. However, consider this...

I said I was on P plates. I didn't say I was under 21. I have an MR license and am fully qualified to drive the truck I was driving.

You should be proud of your ability to jump to conclusions and I feel extremely grateful to have been able to witness such intelligence.

FTe342 · 23-09-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Well done, mate. Your criticism is much appreciated. However, consider this...

I said I was on P plates. I didn't say I was under 21. I have an MR license and am fully qualified to drive the truck I was driving.

You should be proud of your ability to jump to conclusions and I feel extremely grateful to have been able to witness such intelligence.

Your in Vic and he's in NSW. I don't think we can get a MR or HR here if on P plates

FGII-XR6 · 24-09-2008, 10:31 AM

in every state i have lived in you had to be off your P plates before you could get an MR licence. I am surprised that victoria allows inexperienced P platers drive these vehicles any lack of inteligence is on the part of the victorian goovernment in issuing an inexperienced ( yes if you are a p plater you are concidered an inexperienced driver) driver to have an MR licence

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Well done, mate. Your criticism is much appreciated. However, consider this...

I said I was on P plates. I didn't say I was under 21. I have an MR license and am fully qualified to drive the truck I was driving.

You should be proud of your ability to jump to conclusions and I feel extremely grateful to have been able to witness such intelligence.

SM1DY · 23-09-2008, 07:29 PM

I've driven my dad's ISUZU 2005 NPR200 back and forth between Brisbane and the Gold Coast on multiple occasions, but have never reached that sort of speed. It's only a 4.22tonne truck but I think at best that thing has hit 115kph at a slight decline in the road. The speeds you hit seem to make no sense.

reds89 · 23-09-2008, 07:44 PM

didnt you say you had a mate in the truck with you,you have a witness! and as far as i know doesnt matter who it is, they have to have some sort of master speedo or gps system to accurately check your speed.If they havent how can they fine you when his speedo could be out.I would seek legal advice,they will usually advice you if its worth chasing.

4Vman · 23-09-2008, 08:19 PM

Prove the speedo is out on the truck and try to mount a defence.. (with the aid of legal advice) or if the speedo isnt out just bend over and cop it sweet....

Woz · 23-09-2008, 08:23 PM

Speedo on the truck is accurate.

4Vman · 23-09-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Speedo on the truck is accurate.

sorry, but you're stoofed....

Morexbs · 23-09-2008, 09:59 PM

It's up to Vicroads to prove that you were speeding,not up to you to prove that you weren't and that is why a large number of people who decide to challenge fines in court end up winning.
If you tell them that you want to see them in court you have a very good chance of winning and they may also withdraw the fine beforehand because time in court costs them money.

XR8 Uterous · 23-09-2008, 08:27 PM

Actually MR licence is attainable on P-Plates here in NSW, I was planning on going for my MR licence, and someone else I work with has there MR licence on P's.

FTe342 · 23-09-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EL XR6

Actually MR licence is attainable on P-Plates here in NSW, I was planning on going for my MR licence, and someone else I work with has there MR licence on P's.

Ok that makes sense. Its a national licensing system so it should be the same in all states with regards to the P plates. I got my HR a few months back but that was off a full license so didn't have to worry about the P plate aspect. MR must be highest attainable while on green P's?

Spanrz · 23-09-2008, 08:40 PM

What's your tyre size as against the placard?
And or have you had the tyres changed recently???

Also were you on recaps?????? They are speed limited, if they were fitted, you need to check the speed limitation there, could be a way out for you.

Tyres would contribute to the speed difference.

VICROADS "can" book trucks, that's their job. End of story.
Lucky not to ask about log books either.

Cars, different story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Speedo on the truck is accurate.

If you drive up the hume at all, hit Beveridge, check ya speedo there.
If it's accurate, then you can challenge it.

geckoGT · 23-09-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BA Waggn

What's your tyre size as against the placard?
And or have you had the tyres changed recently???

Also were you on recaps?????? They are speed limited, if they were fitted, you need to check the speed limitation there, could be a way out for you.

Tyres would contribute to the speed difference.

VICROADS "can" book trucks, that's their job. End of story.
Lucky not to ask about log books either.

Cars, different story.

If you drive up the hume at all, hit Beveridge, check ya speedo there.
If it's accurate, then you can challenge it.

Ok, so they are able to give out speeding fines but what sort of device do they have to measure your speed? What records of that speed do they keep and substantiate it if the fine is challenged?

Many fines are avoided because it is challenged, don't try and you won't know, just need to know your facts before you open that can of works.

The G6ET Spot · 23-09-2008, 09:45 PM

If you are liable to lose your licence over the fine, I would be going to see a solicitor and challenging it.

Obviously they have judged your speed via their own speedo?, if so theuy have to show that the device is accurate and has had all the necessary accuracy tests done. Which I personally would find very unlikely.

I have spent a fair amount of money over the years challenging speeding fines in court, have won some and lost some but if you need your licence to make a living it is what you have to do.

DOC · 23-09-2008, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Yet, somehow, this bloke reckons he followed me for 3,008m at an average speed of 119km/h. An average speed? Which to me says that I either sat on 119km/h the whole way, which would have most likely meant me getting backhanded by the truck operator sitting in the seat beside me, or I gave it one hell of a squirt that saw me float from 100km/h to roughly 138km/h with 119km/h being tucked neatly in the middle (therefore = average speed). That's how I see it.

This part falls over for you, yes on the surface your sums are right, but even so if the max speed that truck can do is 119 kmh and you sat at that top speed for 3008 m then you average speed is 119kph and the 138 kph arguement goes out of the window.

If the top speed you can get out of that truck is less than 119 kph then yes you could ask how it was possible to do an average of 119 kph.

atec77 · 23-09-2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woz

Alright, I have a bit of a dilemma.

I was driving down Eastlink yesterday afternoon in a work truck, cruising along without a drama when this little, green Camry came flying up behind me and hit the purple flashers from behind the grill. VicRoads!

Pulled over to the side of the road, jumped out to see what was going on and the first thing the bloke said was "Is this thing speed limited?" My answer: not that I know of. Next, he explains that he caught me doing 119km/h in a 100 zone. $227 and 3 demerit points. Wasn't interested in saying, or listening to, anything else.

My problem? There's no way I was doing 119km/h. Not in a fully loaded bitumen truck on flat ground. I admitted that I may have been doing over 100km/h (over the last few k's the speedo had floated from between 95-105), but the needle never got to, or went past, 110km/h.

Yet, somehow, this bloke reckons he followed me for 3,008m at an average speed of 119km/h. An average speed? Which to me says that I either sat on 119km/h the whole way, which would have most likely meant me getting backhanded by the truck operator sitting in the seat beside me, or I gave it one hell of a squirt that saw me float from 100km/h to roughly 138km/h with 119km/h being tucked neatly in the middle (therefore = average speed). That's how I see it.

But with over 9tonne of gutless Isuzu, on a flat section of freeway, 138 is nowhere near reachable. Ever. With our trucks being driven to every corner of the country, blokes have tried. 120-125km/h is roughly top speed in that sort of scenario. And that's fighting hard to get to that speed.

Yet, this bloke wasn't interested. 119km/h was his speed. Detected and alleged. $227 and 3 demerit points. If I'd been fined for doing somewhere between 100-110km/h I wouldn't have even worried about the fine, just paid and gone on with life. But this fine is absolute rubbish. Now, being in a work vehicle, this has presented a bit of drama.

My question is this: What can I do to argue it? It's not right, I know this. The bloke sitting beside me knows this. The bloke from VicRoads wasn't interested in listening to a word either of us had to say. I also didn't think to ask to see any reading or anything until today. Now, I'm a little bit stressed trying to suss out what can be done.

Little help?

You need to establish two things , how did he measure the speed and what speed will the turck do , did your passenger have an opinion ?
I suspect you can beat this.

**aussiblue** · 23-09-2008, 11:16 PM

What model Isuzu? The specs like these give max speeds http://www.suttonsmotorsarncliffetru...20_ARK0227.pdf

Quote:

Max Geared speed: 112* km/h @ 2,650 rpm

and not too many small Isuzu trucks can achieve those speeds even unladen. If you can produce a spec sheet like this it would be good evidence to support your claim.

Bobman · 23-09-2008, 11:48 PM

I'm interested on what section of East Link this was.

There are cameras there (yes I know only two are turned on at the moment IIRC), however the others would still be working in 'test mode'.

Be very interesting to see. Given that there are plenty of traffic monitoring cameras around there and the road is also privately operated, I'd be contacting East Link and perhaps obtaining footage of your truck and the surrounding traffic, which would clearly indicate whether or not the truck was passing traffic or being passed.

dom_105 · 24-09-2008, 01:54 AM

What would also be handy is if Eastlink could give you a precise time (down to the second) that you passed each toll point, and work backwards from there. Depending on which part you were on, those points are pretty close together so it would be pretty accurate.

Spanrz · 24-09-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_105

What would also be handy is if Eastlink could give you a precise time (down to the second) that you passed each toll point, and work backwards from there. Depending on which part you were on, those points are pretty close together so it would be pretty accurate.

There ya go, if you have a breeze account, this can be done.
But it also depends where he was when he got pulled over.

It gives the time, to you, to the second.
So you can calculate the time, just need the distance, then hence average speed.

I know this is a bad analogy, but the other thing he can do, is go under the speed camera at Greens Road full tilt. It will show the max speed, but this will incur a speeding fine in itself.
But before you would do this, get approval by VicRoads on this.
It's only to prove what max speed the truck can do, and therefore discrediting the average speed VicRoads quoted you at (If you can't do 119kph, your case is well in your favour).

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Ok, so they are able to give out speeding fines but what sort of device do they have to measure your speed? What records of that speed do they keep and substantiate it if the fine is challenged?

They have the same power to truckies (IMHO) as cops do to ppl with cars.
They have the power to pull over a truck and go over the truck and driver and fine / or penalise you in any way they see fit.
Whether it's Driver wise (log books included), Truck wise, Load wise or Restraint wise.
I don't know what they use, but you would have to expect it to be somewhat accurate, otherwise these situations would have been challenged in the past and the unit would have been pulled out of the system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiblue

What model Isuzu? The specs like these give max speeds http://www.suttonsmotorsarncliffetru...20_ARK0227.pdf and not too many small Isuzu trucks can achieve those speeds even unladen. If you can produce a spec sheet like this it would be good evidence to support your claim.

Tyre size, needs to be compared with what's actually fitted.
He needs to speed test the vehicle first to check the actual grounds of Vicroads infringement.

colossus · 25-09-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BA Waggn

I know this is a bad analogy, but the other thing he can do, is go under the speed camera at Greens Road full tilt. It will show the max speed, but this will incur a speeding fine in itself.
But before you would do this, get approval by VicRoads on this.
It's only to prove what max speed the truck can do, and therefore discrediting the average speed VicRoads quoted you at (If you can't do 119kph, your case is well in your favour).
.

Woz - "Hello VicRoads"
VicRoads - "Yes"
Woz - "Good, I'd like to ask permision to drive a truck at full bore on my P's through your speed camera. "
VicRoads - "OK...why?"
Woz - "I want to prove that you guys are in the wrong and that I dont owe you money. So yeah, maybe close the road in peak hour or just give me a police escort or something"
VicRoads - "Yeah no worries mate, is Monday OK for you? kthxbye"

Spanrz · 25-09-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colossus

Woz - "Hello VicRoads"
VicRoads - "Yes"
Woz - "Good, I'd like to ask permision to drive a truck at full bore on my P's through your speed camera. "
VicRoads - "OK...why?"
Woz - "I want to prove that you guys are in the wrong and that I dont owe you money. So yeah, maybe close the road in peak hour or just give me a police escort or something"
VicRoads - "Yeah no worries mate, is Monday OK for you? kthxbye"

Ahahaha, I told you it was bad. :P
I was laughing when I wrote it.

But anyway, I did a calculation tonight. Because I have a Breeze account, I can log on and get the time (to the second) I passed the tollgates.
So by using the Rate (of speed), Time (between toll gates), Distance (between tollgates) you can calculate your actual speed.

I came home heading south on the Eastlink. I sat on 100k's via the speedo.
I am awaiting for the timesheet for tonights travel.

However, last night I did the same trip. And I used the time from that.
From the Monash Fwy tollgate (tollgate after Monash Freeway)to the Greens Road Tollgate (tollgate 200 metres before Greens Road exit),
it took me 3 minutes 3 seconds (183 seconds or 0.0508 of an hour).
Usually I sit on my speedo around the 107kph mark, as I am near on 100% sure my speedo is out by 7k's (over).

Rate (kph's) = Distance (k's) / Time (hour)

5.080 (k's) / 0.0508 (time in hours) = 100 kph.

So by the calculations, 100kph through the 2 tollgates should equal to very close to 3 minutes 3 seconds over 5.080 kilometres.
So the speed I was doing last night was pretty dam close to the 100kph, which confirms my suspicion of it 7k's over.

If WOZ, goes under these tollgates, does an average of 100kph via the speedo and then check his time (via a stop watch) or using Breeze account if you have one, he can rest assure what his speedo is really doing.

If your time is longer than 3 minutes 3 seconds, you are of course doing under 100kph, and shorter than 3 minutes 3 seconds - Vice versa.

XR06T · 24-09-2008, 10:39 AM

since when has a camry's speedo been an acurate speed detection device?

fox76 · 24-09-2008, 12:00 PM

With the figures you have supplied the Vic roads car has been following you for 91.01 seconds which would usually mean that over that whole 3008m you may have fluctuated between 118 and 120 kph according to them that is.

If you wish to mount a defence I would first off find out if the speed detection is from the normal Camry speedo, a separate calibrated speedometer (which is independent of the cars speedo) or if it is the Camry’s speedo that has been calibrated. This I think will dictate if you should bother to take it on.

In relation to your speedo, there are many things that can effect the accuracy such as tyre pressure, type and size of tyre, the method of speed detection (electronic or mechanical), how old and how many Km's the vehicle has etc. In relation to you or your friend giving evidence on speed often a Magistrate will not accept a lay persons opinion on speed unless you are an expert or have a field of experience and knowledge as opinion evidence in court is not allowed (unless you are an expert).

It should also be said that the same things that can affect your speedo can affect the Vic roads car. If they are using a normal speedo you have the ADR 5 (I think) re +/- 10% for cars made pre 06 and post 06 I think it is 4% I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong about that. If you can raise a doubt about any of those issues (tyre pressure, speedo calibration etc) then the offence can not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (which is the burden of proof)

Just another thought and its a little underhanded if you are only a few months away from getting your full licence fill the back of the tickets out for court which will be mentioned in a few months time in the mean time you get your full licence then go to court plea guilty and it will not matter anyway as you will have 12 points. With the courts being weak these days I am sure the fine will be either dismissed with no conviction recorded (if you have a good record) or a small monetary amount.