HSV Is Working On LPG-Fuelled Cars.

SpoolMan · 23-01-2009, 09:25 PM

HSV needs feedback to push LPG button

HSV is working on LPG-fuelled hotties, but it'll need positive feedback from buyers before it gives the 'green' alt fuel the green light
Forget what you think you know above LPG fuelled vehicles...

Far from wheezing taxis, HSV is well down the track to having full-power dual-fuel LPG/Petrol powertrains in production for its Commodore-based models...
Indeed, the cars could be in showrooms as early as Q4 2009.

The vehicles, which will produce the same 317kW as the current petrol LS3 V8 HSVs, feature a state of the art liquid port injection (LPI) LPG system. The system is fully stability and traction control-friendly and is the work of HSV's in-house engineering team.

Based on $1.50/L unleaded and $0.60/L LPG, the pay back period for the system could be less than one year, the company claims.
Too good to be true?
You're right, there's one catch... You've got to march into your local HSV dealer and tell him or her you want one. And soon!
According to HSV Managing Director, Phil Harding, the company is looking for customer feedback on LPG.

"I'm deliberately trailing this [technology] in front of you guys and in front of dealers and in front of others because I'm trying to see where the market is going with LPG," Harding told the Carsales Network.

"Everyone I talk to as a potential customer or dealer, their major understanding of LPG is taxis -- so what we're trying to do is go deeper than that and actually maybe even do a bit of education.

"I get the feeling [most of our customers] have never heard of it [liquid injection]. We're saying: 'No guys this is not when you get in a taxi from the airport, this is actually a decently engineered system' and 'come try it'."
"There'll be a period next year where we actually get customers and dealers in to actually experience [the system]. We're looking for opinion," Harding stated.

According to the HSV boss, the new LPI system is still going through HSV's internal processes to gain business approval. Customer feedback and projected volumes will clearly play a key part in that process.
In terms of proof of concept, however, Harding is confident the system will "speak for itself".
"The LPG system is dual-fuel and currently replicates the performance targets the 'natural' petrol 6.2-litre engine will achieve," Harding revealed.
"At full throttle it goes back to petrol, so the science in the development of the product is in making those transitions as unnoticeable as possible. We're pretty pleased with the results at the moment."

One of the non-technical challenges Harding says the outfit is battling is deciding how the technology should be leveraged in HSV's product line-up.
"We had a meeting on it this week -- on what we do [to market the technology]. Do we build a specific model or do we offer it [the LPG system] as an option across the range?

"We haven't decided that yet. We're looking at different business cases and trying to get the pricing right in each business case."
According to HSV Engineering manager, Joel Stoddart, the LPI system is still in relatively early days of its development. The company is yet to complete formal fuel economy testing.

Stoddart is confident that the final fuel usage penalty will be around 15-18 per cent. This is impressive, given HSV is claiming the full 317kW output for the LPI equipped LS3 - as well as the same in-gear and standing start performance. 'Normal' dual-fuel LPG set-ups can 'cost' around 20 per cent in terms of power loss with fuel use increased by a similar increment.

Stoddart told the Carsales Network that the company had not trialled any mono-fuel LPI LPG engines. Despite the potential performance gains from a bespoke LPG engine, the cost of such an engineering program is beyond the scope of the current HSV program, he said.

Harding has not ruled out a pure-LPG model down the track, however.
Though the company will look to sell a message of lower annualized costs for its LPG-equipped cars, Harding stresses that program is about more than pure dollars and cents.

"The HSV customer says that fuel price wasn't a factor in his purchase... I don't know that that's true and I think as a company we should be responsible and look at improved ways of using the natural resources.
I don't want to get to a situation where our customers are looked upon in a negative way.

"Most customers buy a HSV because they've been successful and want to reward themselves. I want to create a situation where that continues and that his [the purchaser's] peers feel he's made a good choice."

Story from here:
http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2008...g-button-11187

itchy brother · 23-01-2009, 09:44 PM

Sounds like a great idea!
If ford and chrysler & Chev all go down this path, we will have V8 powered machines for decades to come!

: :Reverend:

benoxr · 23-01-2009, 09:54 PM

In my humble opinion, I would initially bring the LPI in as an option only at the top end range of vehicles only. If it is successful with those vehicles, the buyers of the lower range of vehicles will be screaming out for it. But the attitude from the top end buyers would be totally different if it was optioned at the lower range of vehicles. The attitude would be along the lines of ‘only the top end buyers are buying the real deal’.
If it was as good as they suggest, the reviews should be good and the LPI would easily sell throughout the range. But if the reviews are bad, well they have more work to do and it will be twice as hard to sell it in a HSV next time.
But wouldnt there be a problem with others apart from the dealer working on the vehicle? There are only a select few that can work on these LPI systems and even though they know the LPI system well, do they have the high performance vehicle skills? And vice-versa, go to your high performance mechanic, but does he know anything about gas systems?

mik · 23-01-2009, 10:07 PM

if lpi goes across the range of new cars watch the pollies think up some more fuel taxes.

b2tf · 23-01-2009, 10:24 PM

Good on them for doing this and hopefully everybody follows their lead. An LPG FPV GT is going to be blasphemy in some people's eyes but if it makes the cars that little bit more affordable and economical for people then it's got to be a good thing.

**Falcon Coupe** · 23-01-2009, 10:32 PM

It's a great idea, i can see a sales success if the power is similar to petrol.

Lets hope Ford wake up and get a few sports models with this option.

MitchG · 23-01-2009, 11:45 PM

Good idea & all, but the thing is that most people that can afford a brand new HSV/FPV dont really give a about petrol prices...im not saying ALL!

Gobes32 · 24-01-2009, 06:47 AM

More troubling is HSV is going to release the lpg fueled car before Ford can release a liquid injection setup. Too many times Holden are beating Ford to great ideas. I am almost positive that if Holden manufactured a Territory type vehicle, there's would almost certainly have a diesel and lpg option.

Ford need to be pro active and start announcing some positive steps forward.

Lukeyson · 24-01-2009, 06:53 AM

doesnt the excise cap on LPG get lifted in a year or too, and LPG will cost not much less than ULP ??? or is that just a myth?

MAD · 24-01-2009, 09:05 AM

There is no excise on LPG at the moment, and when it does come in it will be phased in at 2.5c per year until 12c. At least that what I remember of it, I dont know if it has changed at all.

**GasoLane** · 24-01-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

There is no excise on LPG at the moment, and when it does come in it will be phased in at 2.5c per year until 12c. At least that what I remember of it, I dont know if it has changed at all.

Yep......

From the LPG site........... http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/
"In 2004, the Federal Government announced Autogas would remain excise-free until 2011. Even after that date, excise will be gradually applied in annual increments of 2.5 cents per litre until it reaches a ceiling of 12.5 cents per litre in 2015. By comparison, the current excise on petrol is 38.1 cents per litre."

geckoGT · 24-01-2009, 01:14 PM

I think it is a great idea, certainly will open up more of the higher spec car market to V8's. Contrary to statements above, there are many buyers that are in the market for HSV/FPV value cars that do not like the running costs of them.

I have to be honest, I would be tempted to have a look at it when I come to chose my new car at the end of the year.

Wretched · 24-01-2009, 05:51 PM

*awaits to see Ford/FPV's next move*

4Vman · 24-01-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretched

*awaits to see Ford/FPV's next move*

Why? why does Ford/FPV need to follow/counter/respond/react? id rather see them LEAD...

Windsor220 · 24-01-2009, 09:08 PM

Ford wouldn't do anything with the V8 as its to be replaced in a couple of years. The F6 maybe.

snappy · 24-01-2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Why? why does Ford/FPV need to follow/counter/respond/react? id rather see them LEAD...

Ford is allready in the lead the I6 turbo is the weapon of choice . it has the power/torque and good economy when docile . Adding duel fuel to the holden will increase weight and is a short term solution for sales.
All though the future of the v8 is uncertain i beleive in low cost cars anyway . It is worries me a little because i love v8's but we are being forced to get with the times with stricter emissions controls / cost of fuel (will rise)
Holden does not have much choice for a power plant other than the 8 they have now or go bigger again .
As much as i don't like it smaller capacity motors with forced induction is the answer for greener performance cars.

4Vman · 24-01-2009, 09:17 PM

I dont think the aussie performance market is ready to embrace LPG in performance applications yet... its taken 5 years for the turbo to start to gain acceptance over the V8.. and its still got a way to go..

**GasoLane** · 24-01-2009, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Iits taken 5 years for the turbo to start to gain acceptance over the V8.

Insurance could have a bit to do with that.

4Vman · 24-01-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Insurance could have a bit to do with that.

Nup, don't think that has anything at all to do with it, ive had quotes for both and they work out the same. Australia has always been a petrol "V8" market, the tide is slowly turning in the face of obvious performance benefits,but FPV still sell more GT's than F6's although that gap is closing and from a broader combined "2 brand" perspective V8's still out sell the turbo's about 4 to 1....
But im digressing... LPG maybe the way of the future, and its a bold move that needs to be made, but i can't see it translating into sales yet....

**GasoLane** · 24-01-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Nup, don't think that has anything at all to do with it, ive had quotes for both and they work out the same. Australia has always been a petrol "V8" market, the tide is slowly turning in the face of obvious performance benefits,but FPV still sell more GT's than F6's although that gap is closing and from a broader combined "2 brand" perspective V8's still out sell the turbo's about 4 to 1....
But im digressing... LPG maybe the way of the future, and its a bold move that needs to be made, but i can't see it translating into sales yet....

That may be the case now, but it wasn't so long ago that as soon as the 'T' word was mentioned (in my case a SAAB) insurance people couldn't get off the phone fast enough.

Gobes32 · 24-01-2009, 09:46 PM

Due to the low emissions of lpg, does it qualify as a green car? Holden could be on to a genius marketing move.......

4Vman · 24-01-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Due to the low emissions of lpg, does it qualify as a green car? Holden could be on to a genius marketing move.......

How? Ford were the first with LPG and this isnt a holden initiative, its a HSV fishing exercise..

SpoolMan · 24-01-2009, 09:56 PM

Fords LPG is very old old technology, they also need to look at the liquid system.
There making some very good power with the turbo cars with liquid LPG.

Gobes32 · 25-01-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

How? Ford were the first with LPG and this isnt a holden initiative, its a HSV fishing exercise..

Because HSV's system will make Ford look stupid. Anyone who has driven a liquid injection falcon will tell you they drive like a petrol car, in fact if nobody told you it was lpg, you would never know. On the other hand, some mornings my leading hand has to start his G6, turn it off and then start it again because it is running like a dog. He finds if he does this the car will then run fine, but he should not have to put up with it, a private buyer wouldn't.

**GasoLane** · 25-01-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Because HSV's system will make Ford look stupid. Anyone who has driven a liquid injection falcon will tell you they drive like a petrol car, in fact if nobody told you it was lpg, you would never know. On the other hand, some mornings my leading hand has to start his G6, turn it off and then start it again because it is running like a dog. He finds if he does this the car will then run fine, but he should not have to put up with it, a private buyer wouldn't.

Thats strange, my Dual fuel barge drives like a 'petrol' car on Gas. Guess I must be one of the lucky ones eh?

Maybe your leading hand could use a good mech to tune his car on Gas.

I just love the way that people keep bagging Ford (on a FORD Forum!)

As soon as any other car maker mentions that they MIGHT be doing something different people jump on here and say why did'nt Ford think of that!

Gobes32 · 25-01-2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Thats strange, my Dual fuel barge drives like a 'petrol' car on Gas. Guess I must be one of the lucky ones eh?

Maybe your leading hand could use a good mech to tune his car on Gas.

I just love the way that people keep bagging Ford (on a FORD Forum!)

As soon as any other car maker mentions that they MIGHT be doing something different people jump on here and say why did'nt Ford think of that!

Leading hands car is a e-gas G6, every now and then, he will start the car in the morning and it will develop a rough idle and be a bit grumpy, if he turns the car off and starts it again it runs like a charm, this might happen 1-2 times a week, doesn't bother him but it should not happen.

I know it is not Ford's fault that they are locked into a bad contract with their current gas setup, but if HSV beat them to liquid injection then that's just embarrassing.

Also, I am not insinuating that all gas cars are "barges", rather that if liquid injection was to happen then Ford could fit e-gas to the 195kw motor and dsc could be fitted across the range. As well as six speed auto.

Another point, I am not into bagging Ford on a Ford forum, moreso I just went them to reach their potential and pass Holden, not just try and compete. My job depends on it at the end of the day.

robertjp · 24-01-2009, 11:05 PM

Does anyone remember when the Mr. Crennan was bagging Tickford for installing the LPG systems instead of having it done on the main production line..... My how the wheel turns.... Maybe someone in the know can fill in the blanks as to the contract length with Vialle is, until the legal mess is resolved (Vialle contract + Aussie patent) then I cant see FordAu installing such a system.... That is unless they pay the royalties being sought (Does anyone one know how much this would be?)

flappist · 25-01-2009, 12:43 PM

Marketing marketing marketing.....

Observations:

HSV often make noises about "exotic" permutations of their product range and oftem decide to go ahead with a project after large amounts of "wow, yeh baby, great, wonderful" is heard.

Of course the sales of these products is sometimes not quite as expected:
e.g.
Coupe4, W427, Jackaroo, SV1800, SV6000, XUV, Adventra.........

Ford have has their own little oopses in the sales areas e.g. Force 6/8, TL50 T3, AU V8 wagons, EA 3.3L........

People have to vote with their wallets not their keyboards.

LPG seems to be a popular subject with many on here, most of whom are not driving new LPG or "LPG only" fueled cars.
In actual fact LPG is totally useless outside the capital cities and environs. It is not available at most petrol stations in regional areas so if you are travelling in a pure LPG car you have to plan ahead often forced into taking much longer routes..

This was the same with premium 5 years ago when I drove my 95+ only GT-P and I often had a 20 litre jerrycan of 95/98 in the boot (and had to use it several times).

The price of LPG is quite high (outside melbourne) to the extent that it is no longer significantly cheaper than using petrol. Range is also reduced as more is need to cover the same distance and the car will weigh more with a big steel pressure tank on board.

So, WHY would you buy a $60,000 luxury sports car that costs no less to run (unless you never leave melbourne), is restricted in where it can be driven, is VERY restricted in what mods you can do to it (no more just copy the yank ECU mods into a yank engine) and will probably have extremely crap resale because only people who want to save money use LPG and are therefore going to want to save money buying their second hand car?
Of course there are greenies but the will not buy them because owning a V8 and attending a "greenie function" would be like driving a VL turbo to an All Ford Day.

4Vman · 25-01-2009, 09:34 PM

There's a big difference between wanting Ford/FPV to be the best they can be and being blinded by what ever Holden/HSV wheel out.
They sell more cars largely because of blind brand loyalty and tribalism... not because their products or "innovation" is any better....

**DJR-351** · 25-01-2009, 09:57 PM

I work in the offshore oil and gas industry looking for this ***t, and belive me the surveyors do back flips when they find GAS, crude oil for Petrol and Diesel is old hat, where does the gas come from?? leave whatever crude is down there and let it ferment = GAS....

Anyone who does not look to gas now is going to lose the race, THATS FACT!!