Is 98ron fuel really that much better 95ron

v8snerlo · 28-01-2009, 08:28 AM

Hi guys,
I have an interesting judgement to share. As you can see from my sig, I have a relatively stock XR8 with the only engine mods being a full exhaust and a KN air filter. Yesterday in Brisbane I had to fuel up but could not find any 98ron Vortex or 98 Ultimate due to the fuel shortage so I had to resort to using 95ron BP fuel. Now I could be imagining things but I feel like I could be waisting money by putting the higher ron fuel in because my car feels like it runs as good if not better on the 95ron. Has anyone experienced the same issue. Now I am judging by the old bummometer as well so don't burn me. If anyone can provide a good explanation then I will be happy. Thanks for reading.
Leon
Ps. Sorry mods if this is in the wrong area but it was pretty general.

mcnews · 28-01-2009, 08:37 AM

Only if your engine ran a high compression ratio could I imagine any real benefit. Now BP are getting beyond a joke with their 14 cents per litre premium over the normal stuff I am thinking of going down to 95 also. 14 cents may not be a great deal but I hate getting taken for a ride, and that is exactly what BP is doing to us.

UNR8D · 28-01-2009, 08:41 AM

only way to truely test is to back to back test on a dyno and drain the fuel between runs, i find the TS will run on either but with the cleaning properties in ultimate id rather run it to keep the running gear/injectors clear for piece of mind.

i believe 98 is just as good as 95 and if i cant get ultimate ill use what ever premium i can get my hands on.

Pedro · 28-01-2009, 08:47 AM

I had the exact same experience and my bummometer told me the same thing in my FG F6.

Is 98 a different blend than 95 and does it run cleaner? I ran my BF F6 excusively on BP Ultimate and when I took the plenum apart to clean it at 34,000kms... it was like brand new inside.

mcnews · 28-01-2009, 08:49 AM

My plenum was also clean... but I can't see fuel really affecting that, rather oil blow by up the cylinders and through the valves is what would make a plenum mucky. I think some people believe too much marketing crap they read in adverts...

MITCHAY · 28-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Depends what your car is tuned for even if it's stock or modified. I can run 95 in my car but only short term if there is no 98. Mine runs noticeably worse on the 95.

GTpilot · 28-01-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Now BP are getting beyond a joke with their 14 cents per litre premium over the normal stuff

Shell Started this a couple of months back, They bumped up Vpower to 13-14c more, BP and Mobil etc have recently just followed suit.
As for the difference, I'll keep using 98.

LowEL2XR8 · 28-01-2009, 10:28 AM

One possible reason why you think that 95 is the same or better than 98 is that the tanks could possibly be filled with 98 anyway.
My friend works for a company that delivers BP fuel in Perth. When they run out of 95 they fill the tanks with 98. They can mix up but are not allowed to mix down. So if they run out of 98 they are not allowed to put in 95.
He rings me when he has to do this so I buy 98 at 95 prices.

TadKa · 28-01-2009, 11:12 AM

I've only got a na xr6 with mild mods but it runs crap on ultimate 98 with crap economy using a generic 98 tune. I'll probably need to go and hide but I'm now using e10 95 with a generic 95 tune and I'm getting good performance and reasonable economy. The only time I've had a bad experience with e10 is when I had half a tank of regular 95 and half a tank of e10 95. It ran like a dog for the whole tank and rubbish economy. I always find though whatever fuel I use if I run the same type for multiple tanks it keeps improving up to the 3rd or 4th tank. But of course this could all be in my head.

gozza · 28-01-2009, 11:15 AM

My car is tuned on 98 - it would ping and die on anything less

mrbaxr6t · 28-01-2009, 11:38 AM

There was a thread in the turbo/phoon part of the forum, I believe that 98 is no better than 95, and in actual fact it is most likely 95 with some additives in it, I don't believe that a difference of 3 in octane level is REALLY going to make that much of a difference to power and/or economy. There was a test done by a teevee show they put the same amount litres in 3 identical cars and drove them swapping drivers every half hr, if memory serves the 91 stopped first then the 98 then the 95. but there was bugger all between the 98 and 95 maybe half a km or so.

I agree that 14 cpl jump for the ultimate is quite rude and have discovered that my car runs like crap on 91 octane, and any ethanol blend fuel regardless of octane. Also I am pretty sure that it takes a couple tanks for your ECU to "learn" how to drive the car on a different fuel, the confuser changes the way it runs the engine, but this is a trial and error process hence the running like crap till it works it out. Ford build these things to run on the crappiest fuel in existence and they are dialled that way. When we put good fuel in them it takes time for the computer to figure out things like advance - advance is a huge factor in performance/power gains.

ltd_on20s · 28-01-2009, 12:00 PM

In Europe, their standard Unleaded is 95-96 ron and their Premium Unleaded is 100 Ron

why do we continue to have crap fuel anyways?

better fuel = better power and less consumption so cars would be more fuel efficient. surely our cars can take it when ALL of them have euro complient motors.........

EgoFG · 28-01-2009, 12:07 PM

Back to back tests are all you can do.

I did the following.

run low on Fuel, and fill up with the first fuel to test ... do this twice more, then start logging KM/L on every tank for a reasonable sample of your life (make a note of any abnormal trips)

do the same for the next fuel.

The "reasonable sample" may be hard unless you are prepared to change your habits for the duration of the test.

blackers10 · 28-01-2009, 12:27 PM

at the V8 supercar fan day thing at the RNA they had 2 BA/BF GTs on dynos ..(was A BP thing) 1 on regular 1 on premium ..we asked the guy there and he said the regular 1 would eventually die. and they showed different power figures on each

Sam_Boss260 · 28-01-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackers10

at the V8 supercar fan day thing at the RNA they had 2 BA/BF GTs on dynos ..(was A BP thing) 1 on regular 1 on premium ..we asked the guy there and he said the regular 1 would eventually die. and they showed different power figures on each

yeah, what you'll find is that one car is custom tuned to 98 to respond better.

tweeked · 28-01-2009, 12:49 PM

It will only run better on 98 if it is tuned to.

Octane is just a resistance to detonation. You can add more compression and or spark advance without pinging. This gives more power, not the fuel.

Cars with a knock sensor may gradually advance their timing when putting 98 in, or gradually reduce it if going back to 95. They will feel different over time.

Cars with no knock sensor, if they dont ping on 95, will make little or no more power on 98 if they are tuned for 95.

EgoFG · 29-01-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

It will only run better on 98 if it is tuned to.

....
Cars with no knock sensor, if they dont ping on 95, will make little or no more power on 98 if they are tuned for 95.

This was not really my experience in my EFII I6 Futura.

98 gave me over 50km per tank over 91, and the car was bog stock standard, I did extensive testing (I had the car for 11 years). 98 was noticable better than 95 as well

(excluding Shell - for some reason I could never get good numbers from shell)

geckoGT · 28-01-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackers10

at the V8 supercar fan day thing at the RNA they had 2 BA/BF GTs on dynos ..(was A BP thing) 1 on regular 1 on premium ..we asked the guy there and he said the regular 1 would eventually die. and they showed different power figures on each

Personally I hate hearing about this "test", it is so damn close to false advertising it is obscene.

Both cars are the same model GT-P, both are claimed to be standard. Now both these cars are BF model which means they have knock sensors. The FPV owners manual states the minimum standard for fuel is 95 octane. This is due to the higher compression ratio of the FPV Boss motors, it has been this way since the BAI. Both our GT (BAII) and our Super Pursuit (BFI) list minimum fuel as 95.

This means that they are running one car on 91, a fuel it is not designed for due to the fact that it has a high compression ratio. This will cause the engine to knock, causing the ECU to change AFR and pull ignition timing out, reducing power (no kidding). Meanwhile the other car is run on 98, better than standard, the ECU is not fighting detonation and therefore running better AFR and timing (genius).

Therefore it is a rigged test, of course the car run on a fuel that is better than the manufacturers recommendation is going to outperform the one that is run on fuel that is below the recommended fuel (to the point that if FPV tested it and could prove this, no warranty). A more accurate test would be to have two XT's (can run on 91) and compare, I am sure the result will be different.

Just another rigged demonstration to sucker punch all the victims of advertising out there. Its on a dyno and it is in colour so it must be true

:

mrbaxr6t · 28-01-2009, 11:23 PM

firstly sorry I just cant seem to leave this thread alone - geckogt that is a very astute observation, I was not aware that it was a rigged test and on the subject of detonation wrong spark plug choice can have the same effect supercondense a story - I had a modded EF futura with many mods, headwork and all kinds of off the wall stuff, intakes, exhausts and it just wouldn't develop the power the sum of its parts should have made. In desperation I replaced the spark plug leads and recorded a dyno jump of 20rwkw! with leads! so I swapped the plugs and it was a different car. Its like it was capable of the horsepower but couldn't get there as it was fighting against poor spark/detonation and hence retarding its timing something chronic.

The point is spark plugs can dictate how fuel burns regardless of what fuel you are using if the spark sucks you will get detonation and your computer will correct this. Also I am quite astonished that BAxr6t don't have knock sensor I don't get this at all?

geckoGT · 29-01-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Also I am quite astonished that BAxr6t don't have knock sensor I don't get this at all?

I am pretty sure they do, all I6 in the BA range did. As far as I know it was just the 260/290 in BA that did not. In BF the 260/290 got a knock sensor and the I6's got a second knock sensor as part of the change to the new ECU.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

mrbaxr6t · 29-01-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I am pretty sure they do, all I6 in the BA range did. As far as I know it was just the 260/290 in BA that did not. In BF the 260/290 got a knock sensor and the I6's got a second knock sensor as part of the change to the new ECU.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

ugh not saying you are wrong but this conflicting info I keep getting is beginning to make me look like a tool. Need some new sources of inpho.......

nfury8 · 28-01-2009, 01:59 PM

PREMIUM CARS DESERVE PREMIUM FUEL whatever the cost.
Cleaner engines run better and for longer.

roberts · 28-01-2009, 02:17 PM

liberty around here sell 100 octaine ethanal fuel and my car runs great on it dosnt ping and has been flash tuned for 98 but somtimes when im a tight asre i use the 95 ethnanl bleed fuel and it pings over 5000rpm badly

danets · 28-01-2009, 02:34 PM

never again will i use BP 98!!! or any BP for that fact. i went to the servo just for an experiment with a jerry can, 100% CLEAN, i ensured this. i fill up my 5ltrs and went home, pulled out the filter paper and made a cone, poured through and must have got half a teaspoon of what seemed to be dirt, or bits of rust.
and to make things worse i rang BP fuels and complained, they took all my details and said they would send me out some forms to fill out, and they never came.\
then i rang back, they said they would send a PERSON out, no one came.

Is it me or is BP trying to avoid something here?

Buyers BEWARE

and i urge someone to run this same test in their local area.

nugget378 · 28-01-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danets

never again will i use BP 98!!! or any BP for that fact. i went to the servo just for an experiment with a jerry can, 100% CLEAN, i ensured this. i fill up my 5ltrs and went home, pulled out the filter paper and made a cone, poured through and must have got half a teaspoon of what seemed to be dirt, or bits of rust.
and to make things worse i rang BP fuels and complained, they took all my details and said they would send me out some forms to fill out, and they never came.\
then i rang back, they said they would send a PERSON out, no one came.

Is it me or is BP trying to avoid something here?

Buyers BEWARE

and i urge someone to run this same test in their local area.

Old servo with old tanks, I dont see what it has to do with BP fuel?
this will happen when a tanker has just filled the tanks and stirred up sediment, and will happen at any petrol station you go too, this is why your car has a fuel filter BTW..

GT849 · 28-01-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Old servo with old tanks, I dont see what it has to do with BP fuel?
this will happen when a tanker has just filled the tanks and stirred up sediment, and will happen at any petrol station you go too, this is why your car has a fuel filter BTW..

Yes, I didn't think of that, oh well just change the filter more often. Its easy enough.

danets · 28-01-2009, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Old servo with old tanks, I dont see what it has to do with BP fuel?
this will happen when a tanker has just filled the tanks and stirred up sediment, and will happen at any petrol station you go too, this is why your car has a fuel filter BTW..

It has everything to do with BP fuel. i pay for fuel i want fuel, not bloody rust and dirt, i can dig that crap up in my back yard for free.

and to add to that, the servo was just build there close to a year ago.

wat the %^^$ happened to Quality Control? Walter A. Shewhart would NOT be happy to see his good work not being put to good use.

i can just picture it now, the little indian fella ****ing in the tank cause someone stole the bathroom key.

nugget378 · 28-01-2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danets

It has everything to do with BP fuel. i pay for fuel i want fuel, not bloody rust and dirt, i can dig that crap up in my back yard for free.

and to add to that, the servo was just build there close to a year ago.

wat the %^^$ happened to Quality Control? Walter A. Shewhart would NOT be happy to see his good work not being put to good use.

i can just picture it now, the little indian fella ****ing in the tank cause someone stole the bathroom key.

No, it has to do with the particular servo your buying fuel from, like I said you will find this in many different types of servos..
Maybe you should just start making your own fuel.

danets · 28-01-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Maybe you should just start making your own fuel.

maybe you should buy a commo and take a hike.

GT849 · 28-01-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danets

never again will i use BP 98!!! or any BP for that fact. i went to the servo just for an experiment with a jerry can, 100% CLEAN, i ensured this. i fill up my 5ltrs and went home, pulled out the filter paper and made a cone, poured through and must have got half a teaspoon of what seemed to be dirt, or bits of rust.
and to make things worse i rang BP fuels and complained, they took all my details and said they would send me out some forms to fill out, and they never came.\
then i rang back, they said they would send a PERSON out, no one came.

Is it me or is BP trying to avoid something here?

Buyers BEWARE

and i urge someone to run this same test in their local area.

Could not go past your post mate. I second your finding. I am discusted in the fuel filter on my car and I only run BP. My tank must be a sight for sore eyes, the filter was full of rusty dirty crap.