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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
View Poll Results: Should Police be using vehicle data recorders against owners | |||
Yes | 24 | 27.59% | |
No | 20 | 22.99% | |
Only in extreme cases | 43 | 49.43% | |
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll |
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21-05-2010, 11:11 AM | #1 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Shakey Isles
Posts: 3,428
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Interested in peoples opinions on this scenario...
I remember seeing a piece in a car mag about the potential for this to happen a while back, but have never actually seen it go this far here in NZ. Is this common practice in Australia or other countries ? Quote:
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21-05-2010, 11:18 AM | #2 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 67
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If the accident causes death or disability yes they should.
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21-05-2010, 11:22 AM | #3 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 436
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21-05-2010, 01:05 PM | #4 | |||
Regular Schmuck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,640
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21-05-2010, 01:12 PM | #5 | |||
love the quad cams
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Baulkham Hills
Posts: 1,490
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21-05-2010, 11:31 AM | #6 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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And if the black box is completely wrong what defense do you have?
Has anyone here had one of the computers in their car go silly and do stupid things? I have had idle go up to 2700 rpm, doors lock and unlock randomly, speedo just stop and then start again just to name a few. We have had a couple of threads on how inaccurate speedos are and this "black box" data comes from accelerometers in the same way that "G-Techs" measure 0-400m (and we all know how accurate and reliable those are). |
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21-05-2010, 12:31 PM | #7 | ||||
Back to Le Frenchy
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Back home.....
Posts: 13,346
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Too many variables and too long between maintenance will cause too many issues for these to be reliable.
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07 Renault Sport Megane F1 Team R26 #1397
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21-05-2010, 01:24 PM | #8 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Bat Cave
Posts: 1,237
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21-05-2010, 01:58 PM | #9 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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One could ask: How many times has an airbag deployed because the readings were wrong? Hmmmmm Airbags are only designed to deploy above a certain speed (I think its 40kmh), however if the decelleration is excessive then it will (should) deploy. i.e: when you are sitting still and are hit head on by a car going faster then 40kmh Speedos are as accurate as the ADR allows..... so what is the difference between 110kmh or 100kmh if there is a 10% error? If you as the owner of your car know your speedo is out by 10% then that is your fault for not getting it resolved. Typically cars involved in serious accidents are towed to the Police compound for their crash investigators to inspect the vehicle. This means they seize the vehicle and anything inside. It is released back to the owner/ insurance company after their investigation is complete. Id like to see how far you get if you refuse to have your vehicle checked by them in an investigation.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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21-05-2010, 02:56 PM | #10 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Many more times than a GPS receiver has transmitted to a satellite. The airbag systems are designed to check that there is actually an accident happening and you are OVER a certain speed. 41 is over 40, 410 is also over 40 as is any random number between 41 and 160 so if the system can't tell the difference between 60 and 160 it does not matter as it is all over 40 and that is all it needs to know. The problem is not that they can or do look at the data, it is the presumption that this data accurate and valid. How would you feel if you were booked for speeding based on a reading from a "radar gun" bought from Toyworld for $49.95? |
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21-05-2010, 04:00 PM | #11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 11,412
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That's why I favor point to point radar speed detection, it weeds out those
that speed everywhere and only slow down for the known single point radar traps.... |
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21-05-2010, 05:35 PM | #12 | |||
Regular Schmuck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,640
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Recently did a trip out to Bathurst and I'm glad there was roadworks between the two average speed cameras which meant that there was no way you could break the average posted limit. I could travel at a comfortable speed at around 100kph instead of applying brakes on a downhill section of a two lane highway so I don't exceed the average speed. |
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21-05-2010, 05:55 PM | #13 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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25-05-2011, 07:06 PM | #14 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 4,344
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I believe trucks SAFE T CAMS read a little electronic tag on the trucks window and match up to find it's average speed, but how do cars ones work? |
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22-05-2010, 11:15 AM | #15 | |||||||||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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Now, considering all this data recorded is from the safety systems fitted to the car, it will involve vehicle speed sensors, ABS sensors, throttle position sensors, yaw angle sensors, brake sensors, airbag sensors and steering input sensors etc. Many of these sensors are involved in the everyday operation of systems on the car such as EBD, DSC, ABS and traction control as well as the ECU for the function of the engine and transmission. Due to the link of these sensors to the airbag, DSC and traction control, each of these sensors are run through a diagnostic test each and every time the car is started. Thus a fault in these systems would be communicated to the driver through a warning light and a fault logged on the ECU which would show clearly by a simple scan of the ECU. I think you will find the safety mechanisms put into place on these systems would be very stringent and reliable as any fault found in the system may in extreme cases be found to have contributed in a severe accident causing injury or death, leaving the manufacturer open to legal liability. These system controls and recordings are there to protect the manufacturer from legal action and allow them to prove that all their safety systems were working or if they were not that the driver was aware they were not functioning. As to the question of accuracy of these readings, let’s think about this. Quote:
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Consider this, if his wheel speed sensors (the source of the data) indicate he is doing 98 while he is travelling in a 100 zone. Yet he is actually travelling at 65, as his statement suggests (because his system is so inaccurate). I doubt that he would find it acceptable that when his speedo says that he is travelling at the speed limit, all other traffic is passing him 33 kmh faster. I am sure that he would have the car in at the service department stating that his speedo is grossly inaccurate. Yes there may be an inaccuracy in the system but I highly doubt it is enough to account for the 30% difference between safe speed of the road and the recorded speed. If there is that level of inaccuracy, HSV may find themselves in trouble as defective vehicle systems have contributed to the accident. Quote:
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To me, all this discussion regarding the accuracy of the data and the application of the data read as a GTO although the unit was fitted to a commodore is a moot point. Even the defence is not challenging this data or its accuracy (probably because they acknowledge this is not an issue). If the theories on this forum are correct and the data is likely to be inaccurate and his defence counsel has not realised this, he should get a new lawyer (one that knows what he is doing). They are challenging the legal right to collection of that data only. In a serious crash the police have the right to examine the vehicle and all the systems of that vehicle, they do it every day. As to the question of does the owner of the vehicle have the right to deny access to the vehicle by police investigation, I don't know but I highly doubt it. Does this right of access apply to the data recorder, I assume yes because it is a vehicle system just as the brakes, steering and suspension are. The lawful answer here is one for a judge to sort out and I would suggest we are about to see a legal precedence set here. As for the question of the thread, should they have access to the data recorded in the event of a serious accident? If the police feel the accident is significant enough to justify spending thousands on getting the data recorder analysed, then absolutely.
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21-05-2010, 11:46 AM | #16 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 436
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That is for the defense to argue. The black box should be used as evidence to support the case.
Not saying it cant happen but it would be crazy for someone to be convicted on a black box alone. I would be mighty peed off if the evidence was rejected and I was the one left crippled |
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21-05-2010, 12:12 PM | #17 | ||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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no: as to what flappist's said, how ever next of kin should be able to ask holden for the read out if they want to know.
the police using the "non" compatable softwear to obtain info is subjective at best.
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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21-05-2010, 12:46 PM | #18 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 423
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correct me if I'm wrong but when certain models depoly air bags - the speedo and tacho stay frozen displaying the speed and revs at the time of the crash - A few cop/crash shows feauturing bseries have done this...
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21-05-2010, 08:14 PM | #19 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
Posts: 7,453
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I assume this is because most speedos and tachos work electronically and at the loss of the electrical signal, the needle will return to zero as a result of the spring pressure. Try unplugging your instrument facia from the wiring loom with the engine running to demonstrate this. I have heard of this freezing of the reading happening on older vehicles with cable drive speedos and tacho but there are not many of these vehicles now. I have however seen a motorcycle that had a mechanical drive tacho that froze at the last reading on impact when it t boned a car. The accident investigator said that they will check what gear the bike was in and calculate the speed according to the reading on the tacho and the gear ratio. Considering the bike had a heavy aluminium box section frame on a high powered sport bike, which was snapped in two at the head tube, he was going a bit faster than the 60 kmh limit. Next time I am at a serious crash and accident investigation are there, I will ask to clear this up.
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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21-05-2010, 08:20 PM | #20 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,820
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21-05-2010, 08:25 PM | #21 | |||
Ich bin ein auslander
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Loving the Endorphine Machine
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Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional! |
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21-05-2010, 12:47 PM | #22 | ||
IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,799
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This info from the 'black box' as its being put requires the police to get a warrent to get the info that is stored (if you have a look in a B-series manual it will actually tell you this). Now the info may be helpful, but as long as investigators dont start thinking that its the be all and end all (like the recent DNA debarcle) then I dont see an issue. The data should be used as a tool to help piece together info on a crash. A planes black box is used that way as they still need to investigate the actual plane and what was going on at the time of the crash.
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Daniel |
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21-05-2010, 02:00 PM | #23 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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This equates to the average car being completely stripped and recalibrated every 4000-5000km or so as opposed to the current practice of NEVER. The fact that so many are so willing to accept that information supplied for cheap domestic rubbish is gospel is the most frightening although we do live in an age where so many believe anything they read on the internet or see on A Current Affair. The adage "only in extreme cases" is another trap. What is an extreme case? Causing death? What about injury? Causing injury? What about could have caused death or injury? In other words any and every time your car is being driven this would apply because at any time you can cause death or injury can't you. Lets look at hoon laws. How many cars have been confiscated for minor operational indiscretions? A minor chirp or spin leaving the lights in a low traction environment, goodbye car. A short burst of speed in the middle of woop woop, goodbye car. A mechanic working on your car does something silly, goodbye car. An employee talks on a phone and has let their license lapse, goodbye front end loader. Naive do gooder mentality is the source of almost all the injustice, tyranny and autocracy in Australia and the whole "if it just saves one life" dogma will be the epitaph on the gravestone of performance motoring. Look at the big picture people otherwise one day you will be stopped for a "random computer check" and have your car confiscated on the spot for doing 150km/h with a grace period of 24 hours for you to prove that it was on a race track not a road. Of course proving someone else was driving, even the previous owner will just allow you to recover your lost license not recover the "naughty" car......... |
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21-05-2010, 02:30 PM | #24 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 727
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Flappist _ I can see your logic, but the main issue is the admittance of evidence in a court case. |
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21-05-2010, 06:34 PM | #25 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Since we are straying off the subject so much here..... RPT aircraft are not serviced at more frequent periods of 100hrs. Yes they go in for a check every 25hrs or so but its to do only a particular part of the aircraft. That way it only takes a few days to do a particular area of the service, instead of many weeks to do a complete service. Extreme cases.... what is more extreme then serious injury? death? Since you decided to use aircraft as an example, every RPT accident or incident is investigated and EVERYONE is put through the wringer. Would you prefer when an airliner crashes and killed people they dont investigate it using EVERY means possible? Because what your saying is exactly that in the case of a motor vehicle accident. That Police should not do anything and sit on their ***** all day. So what if they didnt go to Holden to get the thing read. Holden DIDNT make it.... Bosch did. Quote:
The idiot was on a public road talking on a phone without a license.... Again you seem to prefer people doing anything they want without any form of repocussions....
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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21-05-2010, 06:42 PM | #26 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
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but by that logic why didnt they take it to ford?? fact is bosch is just hardware with rudamentry bios, gm, ford, merc, and all else add their own softwear
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I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
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21-05-2010, 07:02 PM | #27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
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To prove the speed Hohaia was travelling, police sent the Holden's airbag data unit to William Haight, director of the San Diego Collision Safety Institute. Mr Haight told the court via video conference yesterday that 2.5 seconds before the crash Hohaia's Holden was travelling at 150kmh and 0.5 seconds before the crash it was travelling at 98kmh. If your going to read it you take it to the manufacturer or a company/ organistion who is impartial.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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21-05-2010, 07:05 PM | #28 | ||||
Life begins at 40
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Melbourne. Socialist capital of Victoriastan.
Posts: 3,715
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What has our country come to? The Kenworth I drive is GPS tracked, and that means everything, braking applications, braking distance, deceleration, G forces in corners, the lot. But, if I were to have some major accident, the police would be kicking the front door of my employer in demanding the data from the vehicle under the “chain of responsibility” laws. Whether they get this information or not, I’m not sure but they would give it a bloody good try. They have no right to this from anyone. If they want to convict someone, they can damn well do the investigation themselves, not rely on outside data that in many cases, they have to legal right to. In my opinion, we are becoming a police state.
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Justice is what you get when you run out of money.
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21-05-2010, 07:25 PM | #29 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: QLD
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No it should not be used,it is an indicator of speed NOT an accurate reliable set of data.
As for you jim goose now go away.
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FORD RULES OK The more I know ppl the more I love my DOGS. 2011 SY Territory Limited Edition TS 2000 AUII SE ute IL6 Last edited by SpoolMan; 21-05-2010 at 09:08 PM. Reason: edit insult |
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21-05-2010, 08:19 PM | #30 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
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Gee wizz.... personal insults. Usually occurs when another person hasnt got anything to contribute to the arguement/ discussion...
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... Last edited by SpoolMan; 21-05-2010 at 09:09 PM. Reason: edit quote same as post |
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