Call to Arms

[Luke Plaizier]

Today some numbers have been released by the Oz Government showing how much financial assistance other manufacturers in other countries get as a measure of per-capita dollars. Here goes:

Per-Country Per-Capita government assistance to auto-industry:

Australia $17.80
Canada $96.39,
France $147.38,
Germany $90.37,
Sweden $334
UK $27
US $264.

The call to arms is - on any article where you see Bleating about the assistance provided by the Oz Government to the automotive sector in the comments section, post these figures yourself to show how little money we actually do provide to the automative sector compared to other countries. Perhaps the focus should be on having France, Germany, Canada and the US reduce their subsidies to Australian levels.... (Sweden needs theirs though)


Lukeyson

[2011G6E]

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

Per-capita


Doesn't australia want to keep jobs/industry outside the mining sector?

[FG_Frodza]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Population of these countries...even ignoring tiny Sweden and their massive subsidies?

Face facts...Oz is a tiny tiny market, with less people on our entire continent than a lot of large cities overseas. We should thank our lucky stars we even have a car industry here beyond screwing together CKD kits...

Australia has a population of 20 million.

We are in the top 30% in the world for population size.

The only city with a population greater than Australia is Tokyo (32 million).

Per capita we have the 6th largest car market in the world.

I wouldn't call Australia a 'tiny tiny' market.
Yes it may be tiny compared to the USA and China and the, but compared to the rest of the world our market is quite large...

Just thought I would add some perspective.

[bungarra]

Joolia and Swaney better use these figures when recalculating the help to the Oz industry.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by bungarra

Joolia and Swaney better use these figures when recalculating the help to the Oz industry.

Its the opposition who have recently been critisizing the government for too musch support for the auto industry, and proposing the support is cut to balance the budget.

[2011G6E]

The problem is that any other industry is told no support is available...the world trade organisation will take us through the world courts, it's unfair, market forces have to apply and if they can't stand on thier own two feet, too bad.
It's happened to plenty of other dinky-di Aussie true-blue industries and businesses over the years, so why doesn't the American-owned car industry here get told the same thing?

[SM1DY]

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide

Exactly. You'd need to factor in how much money exports bring back in.

The big question is, how do we export again? I dont see that happening while our manufacturers are foreign owned.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

Exactly.

Wonder how relative those subsidies by other countries are to the tax/income brought in by those makes. I.e. within Germany how much does BMW, Audi, Mercedes and VW bring in compared to what is subsidised?

what kind of subsidies do they offer? Tax breaks? Innovation incentives?
I know we offered the green car fund which I applauded, it gave incentive to innovate not just hand out money to bring out the same rubbish all the time.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

All those other countries export cars worldwide, Australia sends the Commodore to the middle east and the caprice to the US.

...and exports twice as many Camrys as are sold here too.

[Scott]

Luke, the figures are far too simplistic to mean anything at all. For all I know, the US could be spending that much and effectively just propping up manufacturing in Thailand.

Reading through some of the informative posts on AFF, I came across one that said the Australian Government tips $3bn into the Auto Industry here each year. A quick google found that there are 50,000 employees supported by that same industry.

$3bn/50,000 people = $60,000 a head!!

Now I'm being too simplistic....

edit - based on that $3bn, divide it by our population of 22,500,000 and it works out to $133 per capita.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Scott

Luke, the figures are far too simplistic to mean anything at all. For all I know, the US could be spending that much and effectively just propping up manufacturing in Thailand.

Reading through some of the informative posts on AFF, I came across one that said the Australian Government tips $3bn into the Auto Industry here each year. A quick google found that there are 50,000 employees supported by that same industry.

$3bn/50,000 people = $60,000 a head!!

Now I'm being too simplistic....

edit - based on that $3bn, divide it by our population of 22,500,000 and it works out to $133 per capita.

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia. It also doesn't take into account hundreds of other small businesses that would die overnight if the big three pulled out.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by irish2

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia.

The ~50,000 incorporates Vehicle Manufacturers and Component Manufacturers. No idea who is or is not included from there.

http://www.innovation.gov.au/Industr...istics2010.pdf

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Scott

The ~50,000 incorporates Vehicle Manufacturers and Component Manufacturers. No idea who is or is not included from there.

http://www.innovation.gov.au/Industr...istics2010.pdf

Your own link shows the employment at ~59,000. That is roughly 1% of employees within Australia. That figure alone would be a massive hit. Our resources industry only employs ~200,000, yet we rave on about it being an ecconomic saviour.

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by irish2

Your own link shows the employment at ~59,000. That is roughly 1% of employees within Australia. That figure alone would be a massive hit. Our resources industry only employs ~200,000, yet we rave on about it being an ecconomic saviour.

Mining is our economic saviour not just because of the jobs but because when they spend money its not small change.
If the government were propping up the local manufacturers as much as the other countries maybe we would be exporting alot of cars.
They either need to protect the industry or support it with hand outs

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by irish2

Without even googling I can tell you there are far more than 50,000 employees in the auto industry, in Australia. It also doesn't take into account hundreds of other small businesses that would die overnight if the big three pulled out.

Just out of interest, could you possibly tells us where those more than 50,000 people are employed in auto manufacturing (please feel free to use google). I am always interested to know how 50,000 plus people on an average of $50,000 per year, are only able to make 220,000 cars per year (4.4 per person).

Even allowing an average wholesale price of $28000 per car, that equates to $123,000 per employee per year. Doesnt seem to be a very productive industry.

The only reason why anyone would "Call for arms" would be to enable them to pull their heads out of the sand.

[.FoMoCo.]

Maybe its not all about the economy, maybe there is more to a huge manufacturing sector than how much money it can produce in profit? Look at the intellectual investment, fostering young engineers, designers etc. Does everything in this world now have to generate positive income to be worthwhile? Australian engineering has a long a proud history and to cut the ropes on the industry purely from a numbers standpoint is surely a shallow view on things?

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Just out of interest, could you possibly tells us where those more than 50,000 people are employed in auto manufacturing (please feel free to use google). I am always interested to know how 50,000 plus people on an average of $50,000 per year, are only able to make 220,000 cars per year (4.4 per person).

Even allowing an average wholesale price of $28000 per car, that equates to $123,000 per employee per year. Doesnt seem to be a very productive industry.

The only reason why anyone would "Call for arms" would be to enable them to pull their heads out of the sand.

the figure they gave on ABC radio was 14,000 directly employed in auto manufacturing. (i believe that figure doesn't include administration, distribution and sales).

Originally Posted by .fomoco.

Maybe its not all about the economy

remember the reason Holden was setup for local manufacturing? Japan was on the warpath in the pacific!

[SumoDog68]

I would protect local car industry if there was one. Unfortunately our car industry is not ours - GM , Ford and Toyota are foreign owned companies that produce some of their cars locally.
Because these local manufacturing plants and supplier networks employ lot of people our goverment is supporting their existance. I would like to see real aussie car company (or two) to design and produce a car(s) for our market.
Maybe use Ford inline 6 (soon to be obsolete ) under license , and produce a 4wd ute and wagon to compete with Hilux / Prado at fraction of the cost.
I know the costs of developing new vehicles are astronomical so it will probably stay just a dream...

[XRtowcar]

Why dont the government just give ten grand to a purchaser of an Australian built car. At least it wont get squirrelled away to help the overseas parent show a profit.

[GT-E]

Why subsidise an industry that is non-viable. I support made in australia, but cannot understand why we are designing and building cars that are have very little demand. While I know I will get flamed because of this viewpoint, surely there are better places to spend money to encourage industry that can stand on their own 2 feet and make money, not be a "Manufacturing Dole Bludger" and make all of us pay for their inability to make a profit.

I would rather see my tax dollars going into developing new technologies. Just look at Mitsubishi, they were subsidised, given grants and tax brakes and still buggered off.
Unfortunately I see our local car makers dying a slow death as we all switch to more efficient car makers.

[.FoMoCo.]

I say bring back protection for Australian manufacturing. The "good old days" of Australian auto industry were characterized by heavy tarrifs on imports. It's all very well to say " if they can't stand on their own 2 feet, they shouldn't be in existence" but the reality is the rest of the world is heavily protected.
How in God's name can we seriously compete with the likes of great wall and chery, when the people who are manufacturing them live on a tiny wage? That is not a level playing field, and to say "too bad we need to be more efficient" is another way of saying we need to reduce wages. Isn't it?
I need someone here to explain why we need zero protection for our industries when the rest of the civilized world sees a need.
The way manufacturing in Australia is headed, we will all be working in I.T., banking, or services in 20 years. Is this really the path we want to head down?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by .FoMoCo.

I say bring back protection for Australian manufacturing. The "good old days" of Australian auto industry were characterized by heavy tarrifs on imports. It's all very well to say " if they can't stand on their own 2 feet, they shouldn't be in existence" but the reality is the rest of the world is heavily protected.
How in God's name can we seriously compete with the likes of great wall and chery, when the people who are manufacturing them live on a tiny wage? That is not a level playing field, and to say "too bad we need to be more efficient" is another way of saying we need to reduce wages. Isn't it?
I need someone here to explain why we need zero protection for our industries when the rest of the civilized world sees a need.
The way manufacturing in Australia is headed, we will all be working in I.T., banking, or services in 20 years. Is this really the path we want to head down?

"Heavily protect them" like "the good old days"...yep...the good old days when Aussie car makers knew damn well they could be lazy and produce any old under-equipped rubbish of a pretty low standard, knowing that imports which were usually much better screwed together and better equipped would be priced out of competition by a protective government.

Does anyone honestly think that Australian-made cars would be equipped and made as well as they are if they hadn't had to face stiff competition from cheaper overseas cars that had twice the standard equipment levels? Look at most American cars...they're "heavily protected" and are, to be blunt, built down to a price and mostly look good, but inside are acres of cheap flimsy plastic and certainly don't have a quality feel to them....but they don't have to...they know that a captive audience of patriotic Yanks will buy any old crap they churn out, because they are well protected by government policy and it's "Made In the USA!!"...

That's the way to make them face the reality of the hard cold world...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

"Heavily protect them" like "the good old days"...yep...the good old days when Aussie car makers knew damn well they could be lazy and produce any old under-equipped rubbish of a pretty low standard, knowing that imports which were usually much better screwed together and better equipped would be priced out of competition by a protective government.

Does anyone honestly think that Australian-made cars would be equipped and made as well as they are if they hadn't had to face stiff competition from cheaper overseas cars that had twice the standard equipment levels? Look at most American cars...they're "heavily protected" and are, to be blunt, built down to a price and mostly look good, but inside are acres of cheap flimsy plastic and certainly don't have a quality feel to them....but they don't have to...they know that a captive audience of patriotic Yanks will buy any old crap they churn out, because they are well protected by government policy and it's "Made In the USA!!"...

That's the way to make them face the reality of the hard cold world...

First of all American cars are built to a price, not heavily protected - there is a big difference. And geesh where were you during to the 60s and 70s? Australian cars were some of the best in the world for the money. Especially compared to the English, French, Italian and American cars at the time. Protection does not automatically mean uncompetitive. The competition between the Australian car makers was fierce.

[tweeked]

I love statistics like this that make no sense

Show it in a figure based on assistance per car built.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by tweeked

I love statistics like this that make no sense

Show it in a figure based on assistance per car built.

That would be interesting.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by GT-E

Why subsidise an industry that is non-viable. I support made in australia, but cannot understand why we are designing and building cars that are have very little demand. .

So we shouldnt support Farming then? Should we just import our Food from China?

Alot more money has been thrown into the Farming industry than the Auto industry.

[SVR73]

Originally Posted by GT-E

Why subsidise an industry that is non-viable. I support made in australia, but cannot understand why we are designing and building cars that are have very little demand. While I know I will get flamed because of this viewpoint, surely there are better places to spend money to encourage industry that can stand on their own 2 feet and make money, not be a "Manufacturing Dole Bludger" and make all of us pay for their inability to make a profit.

I would rather see my tax dollars going into developing new technologies. Just look at Mitsubishi, they were subsidised, given grants and tax brakes and still buggered off.
Unfortunately I see our local car makers dying a slow death as we all switch to more efficient car makers.

I agree with you. if a car maker or a car industry in a country isnt viable then thats too bad.
I'm not buying a new car ever again unless they start making attractive looking cars with quality materials in them. love large sedans and coupes and always will. so sticking with what I've got.

[Bossxr8]

The government definately needs to do more to protect the industry from imports. All the other countries find ways to protect their own, why don't we.

I'm noit saying tariffs, I think they are banned under FTA's, but put some kind of dis-incentive in place.

Brazil for example says if you want to import into our country, you have to buy something off of us in return. BMW for example have been buying and importing Brazillian wine into Germany to be able to sell cars in Brazil.