Taxis, LPG, Hybrids and diesel

[jpd80]

Had an interesting conversation with taxi operators recently, seems they are trying
different vehicle in their fleets to find out which gives best fuel economy, LPG, hybrid and diesel

Starting with LPG, a BF goes through about $50-60 of lpg in a a shift but a hybrid Camry only Uses around $30 of petrol
and a diesel passat around $30-35 of diesel...........Wow, that right there is a HUGE difference..

I got to thinking about this and it shows a big misconception on my part and others by assuming the combined economy numbers
for taxi work. It's the urban figure is key as most of the running is typical stop go traffic as approximated by the Urban cycle.

The upshot of this is that the LPG taxis generally use around 18-20 l/100 km of gas regardless of EcoLPI or E-Gas
as the 6-speed auto ZF is of less economical benefit in traffic driving but hybrids and diesels still give great fuel economy.

A quick estimation of urban economy for Ecoboost Vs EcoLPI shows that they would probably be about the same running cost
but by comparison we know that the urban running costs of hybrid Camry and Diesel Passat S/W are around 60% of this...

I'm beginning to think that this is why we're seeing a changing of the guard, in the past two years E-Gas was vacant
and since taxis mostly buy low km used versions, their "stock" would have dried up considerably, raising the price at auctions.

Anyone else have theories on which way taxis will hop in the future?

[Road_Warrior]

I find it difficult to accept that the EcoLPi is no more efficient than the old egas system. Even the SVI system in my BA I get 15-ish L/100klm from urban driving. Liquid Phase Injection is more efficient still.

I don't think hybrids will be a serious contender for taxi fleet work simply because of the costs involved in replacing the batteries which would need to be done sooner in a taxi than the same car being driven normally by your average consumer. If they're going to swing any direction away from LPG Falcons, it will be toward mid size diesel sedans and vans.

[GTP-03]

I had this exact conversation with a taxi driver a couple of months back while I was getting driven in his FG. First of all hoping from a prius into a an FG is enough for me not to get in a prius again as the Falcon is certainly a lot more car and a much more comfortable and a better ride fullstop.
He claimed that his boss only bought Fords and his whole fleet consisteted of Falcons because they are cheap to buy and maintain. An FG costs them around 16k with factory gas, they are not new but low kms. The Falcon does use about 60 dollars worth of lpg per shift, but thats where the downside ends.
The Prius does use about 25 dollars of fuel per shift, but the downside is it is over double of the price of the Falcon and the service and replacement parts for them are much more expensive than the Falc. At the end of the vehicle life the figures work out in favour of the Falcon, however this is only the case if lpg prices stay low and the price of hybrid cars dont come down, in about 10 years time things might be a lot different, and perhaps the falcon might just be a taxi vehicle of the past, unless ofcourse it follows camrys lead and goes hybrid or even hybrid ecoboost lpi lol!

[Brazen]

I also had the conversation with a driver in Adelaide a couple of months back. I too was surprised was that the Hybrid Camry cost half as much to run as the gas Falcons. I thought it was an exaggeration but that seems to mirror up to what the driver told you jdp80.

Initial purchase price isnt an issue as this firm buys all their Taxis brand new. So Hybrid Camry and Falcon are pretty similar.

The biggest issue he had was that the gas Falcon has a tiny boot due to the spare wheel, the Hybrid Camry has a full sized boot which is necessary for the airport run - they were also trialling a Holden Sportwagon on gas but he hadnt driven it.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also had the conversation with a driver in Adelaide a couple of months back. I too was surprised was that the Hybrid Camry cost half as much to run as the gas Falcons. I thought it was an exaggeration but that seems to mirror up to what the driver told you jdp80.

Initial purchase price isnt an issue as this firm buys all their Taxis brand new. So Hybrid Camry and Falcon are pretty similar.

The biggest issue he had was that the gas Falcon has a tiny boot due to the spare wheel, the Hybrid Camry has a full sized boot which is necessary for the airport run - they were also trialling a Holden Sportwagon on gas but he hadnt driven it.

Yeah, you could have knocked me over with a feather when they told me the economy Camry Hybrid was getting,
maybe time and technology has caught up with LPG taxis, I think we're seeing a changing of the guard..

The big thing we all must stop doing is assuming combined fuel economy figure reflects taxi fuel usage.
When you look at Urban figures versus hybrid and even diesel, the latter are now at a big adavntage..

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I also had the conversation with a driver in Adelaide a couple of months back. I too was surprised was that the Hybrid Camry cost half as much to run as the gas Falcons. I thought it was an exaggeration but that seems to mirror up to what the driver told you jdp80.

Initial purchase price isnt an issue as this firm buys all their Taxis brand new. So Hybrid Camry and Falcon are pretty similar.

The biggest issue he had was that the gas Falcon has a tiny boot due to the spare wheel, the Hybrid Camry has a full sized boot which is necessary for the airport run - they were also trialling a Holden Sportwagon on gas but he hadnt driven it.

Hybrid Camry does not have a full size boot, its as handicapped as an LPG Falcon. Hybrid has 421L vs 535L for a regular Camry
Also Camry still has those boot hinges that intrude into the boot.

Hybrid

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Hybrid Camry does not have a full size boot, its as handicapped as an LPG Falcon. Hybrid has 421L vs 535L for a regular Camry
Also Camry still has those boot hinges that intrude into the boot.

Hybrid
image

Are you sure?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I find it difficult to accept that the EcoLPi is no more efficient than the old egas system. Even the SVI system in my BA I get 15-ish L/100klm from urban driving. Liquid Phase Injection is more efficient still.

I don't think hybrids will be a serious contender for taxi fleet work simply because of the costs involved in replacing the batteries which would need to be done sooner in a taxi than the same car being driven normally by your average consumer. If they're going to swing any direction away from LPG Falcons, it will be toward mid size diesel sedans and vans.

Not one set of batteries that I know of has been replaced by taxi operators.
That's the huge fallacy purported by the anti hybrid lobby and also, the maximum age
of a taxi is locked by transport department at 5-6 years so the batteries are not an issue..

and the Urban cycle for EcoLPI is 18 l/100 km so it's only slightly better than the consumption reported by E-Gas taxis.
Now. I'll temper that with very few Qld cabs are in fact EcoLPI as many poerators up here buy low KM units from Govco auctions.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not one set of batteries that I know of has been replaced by taxi operators.
That's the huge fallacy purported by the anti hybrid lobby.

Yeah that may be the case now with the hybrid vehicles being relatively new, who knows what they will be like in a few years with 600-odd thousand klm on them. Taxi operators seem to like keeping their cars for a few years.

We need Jastel to comment...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Yeah that may be the case now with the hybrid vehicles being relatively new, who knows what they will be like in a few years with 600-odd thousand klm on them. Taxi operators seem to like keeping their cars for a few years.

5 to 6 years is the limit.

We need Jastel to comment...

I'm sure he will back this up:

Prius Taxi Belts Out Half a Million Klicks

Cairns-based taxi operator Graham Boundy reckons the Toyota Prius is just about the best thing that ever happened to the taxi service, and with approximately 550,000 kilometres under its belt—achieving half the fuel and maintenance costs of other conventionally-powered cars in the taxi fleet—his is a perfect example.

Some 32 Prius taxis roam the streets of Cairns, with an average of 200,000km per year to each of their names.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Then there's the nickel-metal hybrid (better known to you and I as NiMH) battery: an ongoing point of consternation for many of the Prius' detractors. Black & White Taxis' 550,000km monster Prius has apparently had one of its batteries replaced—at 500,000km. Energiser bunny, look out.

According to Vic Johnston, Toyota's manager of hybrid sales and fleet strategy, these are the only two Prius' in Australia that have even needed a battery replacement at all, since its arrival on our shores in 2001.

"When you consider that the average car in Australia travels approximately 15,000km per year, the 350,000km Prius has crammed over 23 years of average driving into a couple of years,"

"And the 550,000km Prius has fitted 36 years into three years, which is astonishing.

"The average age of the Australian car population is now around 10 years, so the battery is lasting well over double that in distance terms.

The fuel savings over half a million kilometres are staggering...

[TMC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

and the Urban cycle for EcoLPI is 18 l/100 km so it's only slightly better than the consumption reported by E-Gas taxis.

That's what urban figures I get from my SY AWD Orbital LPG setup. Those taxi drivers must thrash them. Drive a bit better and get some savings.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by TMC

That's what urban figures I get from my SY AWD Orbital LPG setup. Those taxi drivers must thrash them. Drive a bit better and get some savings.

Most taxi drivers sit and let the vehicle idle ..... hence the extremely high averages though.

The reason why they let them run ... as most of the older ones have a hard time starting again ... just easier to let them idle.

I've let my EGAS ute sit and idle for a long time while waiting on a hot day with A/C on .... and was shocked as the consumption average go through the roof.

[el_wagon]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Most taxi drivers sit and let the vehicle idle ..... hence the extremely high averages though.

The reason why they let them run ... as most of the older ones have a hard time starting again ... just easier to let them idle.

I've let my EGAS ute sit and idle for a long time while waiting on a hot day with A/C on .... and was shocked as the consumption average go through the roof.

Can the hybrids do this? I thought they turned off after a minute of idling?

[mike_nofx]

We all know a falcon taxi will do 700k with very little issues, will this be a typical amount of km to expect from a hybrid, ecoboost ect?

Yes I see above they say a Prius has done 550Km, but is that going to be the norm, or is it a rare one off?

Not having a go, just interested in opinions.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

We all know a falcon taxi will do 700k with very little issues, will this be a typical amount of km to expect from a hybrid, ecoboost ect?

Yes I see above they say a Prius has done 550Km, but is that going to be the norm, or is it a rare one off?

Not having a go, just interested in opinions.

Qld transport has 6 year cut off for taxi vehicles 700,000 km is the norm for taxi life
and since the article I posted was from 2008, there's every likelihood that Priuses are achieving that
because if they weren't, you'd hear all about it by now....

For hybrid taxis, the saving over the life of the vehicle are huge, a prius is half the running cost of an LPG falcon.

[mik]

you may be right, one thing i`m thinking though , just because they manage to get car hybrid with battery still operating at large kilometres, i`m wondering if they where they still operating efficiently at those kilometres?, as far as i was aware batteries still gradually lose their efficiency over a period of time, has something in battery technology changed?
i am also guessing taxi operators would be reluctant to change the batteries until they are nearly all but useless, a bit more info on the hybrid from more sources as they age would be a good thing.

[jpd80]

If you're saving $20-$30/shift on fuel for 2 shifts/day for 6-7 days a week for five years, the advantage stacks up

[naddis01]

Over 5 years ($20 x 2 shifts x 6 days/week) that works out to be $62400 in fuel savings.

[Racecraft]

THe Prius get better eco than the Camry
On day shift when you really slug the traffic and stop start
Pruis= $10-$12 of ULP
Camry= $19-$22 of ULP
Egas 4 speeder = $28 of LPG
FG 4 speeder with SVI & Territory 4 speed with SVI = $28-32 of LPG + $5 ULP
FG 6 speed with SVI = $30-$35 of LPG + $5 ULP

Prius $25Camry #0

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

THe Prius get better eco than the Camry
On day shift when you really slug the traffic and stop start
Pruis= $10-$12 of ULP
Camry= $19-$22 of ULP
Egas 4 speeder = $28 of LPG
FG 4 speeder with SVI & Territory 4 speed with SVI = $28-32 of LPG + $5 ULP
FG 6 speed with SVI = $30-$35 of LPG + $5 ULP

Prius $25Camry #0

how does the FG 6speed SVI use more than a territory? I would expect it to achieve below 14L/100 on gas
this is not a valid comparison without Kilometers driven

[Road_Warrior]

Sounds like there's an opening for some enterprising bastard to import the LPG hybrid Hyundai Elantra...

[LyleXR8]

WhaT about cramming 4 blokes into a cab after a night on the town? Can you fit 4 adults in a Camry or Prius easy enough? I've never been in either, will this not be an issue ie is most taxi work is 1 or 2 people? With the late fri and sat night full car loads?

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by LyleXR8

WhaT about cramming 4 blokes into a cab after a night on the town? Can you fit 4 adults in a Camry or Prius easy enough? I've never been in either, will this not be an issue ie is most taxi work is 1 or 2 people? With the late fri and sat night full car loads?

I went looking for a funny image on the internet for this.
But it's an impossibility as 4 drunk guys would never think of getting into one.

[TMC]

Time to go Ecoboost Direct LPG Injection for the taxis.

[ivorya]

This is bad me saying this but....................

I hope all taxi drivers move to hybrid camry's etc!

It'll stop the general public calling all falcon's taxi's and maybe entice more people to the brand.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ivorya

This is bad me saying this but....................

I hope all taxi drivers move to hybrid camry's etc!

It'll stop the general public calling all falcon's taxi's and maybe entice more people to the brand.

So does Ford. They dropped the taxi pack some years ago and almost all current Falcon taxis were not bought new anyway.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by ivorya

This is bad me saying this but....................

I hope all taxi drivers move to hybrid camry's etc!

It'll stop the general public calling all falcon's taxi's and maybe entice more people to the brand.

Falcon / Commodore are not very comfortable back seat (where as a client i sit in a taxi), so better for customer if they were using camry.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

Falcon / Commodore are not very comfortable back seat (where as a client i sit in a taxi), so better for customer if they were using camry.

Geez, I thought only Seppo's sat in the back seat

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Starting with LPG, a BF goes through about $50-60 of lpg in a a shift but a hybrid Camry only Uses around $30 of petrol
and a diesel passat around $30-35 of diesel...........Wow, that right there is a HUGE difference..

The upshot of this is that the LPG taxis generally use around 18-20 l/100 km of gas regardless of EcoLPI or E-Gas
as the 6-speed auto ZF is of less economical benefit in traffic driving but hybrids and diesels still give great fuel economy.

Just to crunch a few numbers here:

If a Falcon uses $55 for a shift and LPG cost $0.65 (average in my area, its between 62.9 and 66.9) that means in a shift at 18l/100km you would use 84.6 litres of LPG and cover 470km.

If the Hybrid Camry uses $30 of fuel, at $1.45 (again, average here) it would use 20.7L of petrol. To compare evenly with the Falcon, it must also have covered 470km. If it covers 470km with 20.7L, that gives it a consumption of 4.4L/100km.

Now does the Hybrid Camry actually do 4.4L/100km??

I believe Toyota advertise 6L/100km, and from googling a few reviews, testers are getting figures from 5L/100km when aiming for economy, up to 12L/100km when thrashed.

Now cabbies may not thrash the things, but I dont believe they aim for economy either. So whats an actual L/100km figure for a Hybrid Camry Cab?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Just to crunch a few numbers here:

If a Falcon uses $55 for a shift and LPG cost $0.65 (average in my area, its between 62.9 and 66.9) that means in a shift at 18l/100km you would use 84.6 litres of LPG and cover 470km.

If the Hybrid Camry uses $30 of fuel, at $1.45 (again, average here) it would use 20.7L of petrol. To compare evenly with the Falcon, it must also have covered 470km. If it covers 470km with 20.7L, that gives it a consumption of 4.4L/100km.

Now does the Hybrid Camry actually do 4.4L/100km??

Several points, the conversation happened when:
- petrol was $1.50/litre
- LPG was around 80 cents a litre
- E-gas uses 20 l/100 km in urban cycle, not 18 l/100 km
- $60 of gas for worn out E-Gas and $50 for good unit.

With those figures logged into your calculations, E-Gas uses around 62.5 litres and travels around 312 km
therefore if hybrid Camry uses $30 of fuel or 20 litres, then at 312 km, it works out at 6.4 l/100 km.
*Remember, the units we're talking about for taxis are at least two years old and will not have 2012 economy..

So a good E-Gas uses $50 of gas, Hybrid Camry around $30 in petrol and by my estimates,
an EcoLPI would use around 10% less than a good E-gas or about $45 of gas..