Hydrogen .... Believe it or not.

[ryeman]

In anticipation of the introduction of hydrogen from 2017, Mercedes/Nissan/Renault have let it be known that planning for the supporting infrastructure should commence ASAP.
I am assuming Europe will lead the way and the ? is are the API going to try and block such moves here as I also assume their counterparts will in the US.
Will the ex LPG pumps be used to supply this new fuel.
Apart from the usual "...I'll believe it when I see it" comments......"times ARE achangin" faster and faster.
For some threateningly so......

[pottery beige]

im fermenting sliced onions and cucumber skins

i dont need your damn hydrogen

[irish2]

Originally Posted by ryeman

In anticipation of the introduction of hydrogen from 2017, Mercedes/Nissan/Renault have let it be known that planning for the supporting infrastructure should commence ASAP.
I am assuming Europe will lead the way and the ? is are the API going to try and block such moves here as I also assume their counterparts will in the US.
Will the ex LPG pumps be used to supply this new fuel.
Apart from the usual "...I'll believe it when I see it" comments......"times ARE achangin" faster and faster.
For some threateningly so......

Hydrogen is fine as a fuel source. The problem is the simpletons who think they are going to be able to fill up with water and drive away.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by irish2

Hydrogen is fine as a fuel source. The problem is the simpletons who think they are going to be able to fill up with water and drive away.

Thank christ for that......have you seen the price of bottled water in servos, I could never afford that.

[SSD-85]

Hydrogen fuel stations are already present in California. And AFAIK, Ford seem to be only US car maker really looking into it.

I personally see it as the saviour of the internal combustion engine, since it can be applied in that way with relative efficiency. Storage remains the biggest obstacle.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Forevermore

Hydrogen fuel stations are already present in California. And AFAIK, Ford seem to be only US car maker really looking into it.

I personally see it as the saviour of the internal combustion engine, since it can be applied in that way with relative efficiency. Storage remains the biggest obstacle.

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

[ryeman]

IIR liquid under high pressure ....would an LPG tank suffice?.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

If you mean 270 degrees Celsius, that is near absolute zero... I wonder how that would be achieved?

[ryeman]

The issues relating to hydrogen are seemingly the same as LPG as far as 'explosive' issues are concerned but the weight is significantly higher apparently requiring structural strengthening.
All the other safety issues such as supply, transport and storage are seemingly no more of an issue than the LPG ones incl BBQs.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by superyob

If you mean 270 degrees Celsius, that is near absolute zero... I wonder how that would be achieved?

Yeah thats the one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLiTO8lX2UU

BMW Hydrogen 7

Its an actual car, they're going through it in the video and asking questions.

I think we should stick with improving LPG, they've come with some big improvements with LPG technology in the last few years and as much as I couldn't care about the Falcon, its a shame we're losing everything that came with it like the EcoLPI technology, Ford won't be doing anymore development into it so we just lost one of the big boys of LPG development.

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

The liquid-burning BMW Hydrogen 7 came out nearly 8 years ago, and wasn't efficient or practical enough to get up off the ground as a mass-produced vehicle. Things seem to have come a way since then though with fuel cell tech. Hyundai is getting ready to release the iX35 Fuel Cell (Tucson) SUV later this year as the first mass market hydrogen car, available on lease in California only for around $500 per month including maintenance and fuel costs. Toyota and Honda say they are close on its heels with their fuel cell models due to follow in 2015.

Rather than combusting liquid H it uses a fuel cell to drive an electric motor and appears to have a practical range (hard to know who to believe though), top speed and refueling time. It carries around 5kg of H2 on board and the setup doesn't look to be badly intrusive on cargo space - it's diminished by 1.9 cubic feet (54 litres?) compared with a standard Tucson.

A lack of hydrogen stations outside a couple of LA looks like a major current limitation although apparently there are more planned throughout San Fransisco and LA. Will this restricted coverage along with a limited build number of 1000 vehicles in California see it go the way of the BMW 7 or will it become a viable alternative?

[zilo]

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by zilo

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

So now the ? is, can a conventional SI engine be converted as dual fuel?......
To answer my own ? ....who would want to?.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by zilo

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

Same problems as CNG......Need to be stored at VERY LOW temps.....and tanks are quite heavy due to insulation being required....

LPG doesn't need either of these and we already have hundreds of pumps installed nation wide!

[ryeman]

IIR the shear size of the CNG tanks is a problem because it remains in a gaseous state doesn't it?.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

IIR the shear size of the CNG tanks is a problem because it remains in a gaseous state doesn't it?.

Yes. 'Compressed Natural Gas'. This is why LPG is the future because the fuel is stored as a liquid so you can store much more fuel in a much smaller tank.......LPG expands 270 times from a liquid state to a gaseous state per every cubic inch of fuel......And the liquid injection systems are being improved and as long as the fuel stays under $1.00 the savings are still there + cleaner emissions.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Yes. 'Compressed Natural Gas'. This is why LPG is the future because the fuel is stored as a liquid so you can store much more fuel in a much smaller tank.......LPG expands 270 times from a liquid state to a gaseous state per every cubic inch of fuel......And the liquid injection systems are being improved and as long as the fuel stays under $1.00 the savings are still there + cleaner emissions.

I agree that LPG as a stand alone argument has more going for it.....the problem is 'the elephant I'm the room' unfortunately.....declining consumption...declining conversion....declining.....gone!

[timeout]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Same problems as CNG......Need to be stored at VERY LOW temps.....and tanks are quite heavy due to insulation being required....

LPG doesn't need either of these and we already have hundreds of pumps installed nation wide!

Beat me too it... Cng is a pain in the **** let alone trying to find a decent cost filling station for end user use.

[2011G6E]

Go have a quiet look at the size of the fuel tank that was actually in that 7 series BMW...you know, they V12 that could only put out the power of a six cylinder because of the very low energy content of hydrogen gas?

So many technical issues, so much cost, so many problems using an energy-negative fuel such as hydrogen (takes more power to produce the stuff than is contained in the end product).

Until massive technical breakthroughs are made in storage and production, it's a dream, or just something to interest people who think there are simple answers to the fuel question.

[ryeman]

^^^^so why are they asking for the infrastructure rollout?.
Merc BS?.

[madmelon]

Hydrogen is an extremely difficult material to deal with. To store in any decent quantity, you have to either compress it to ridiculous pressures or cool it to near absolute zero. In both cases there are problems- boiling for the cryogenic liquid or permeation for the compressed gas. Additionally, energy per unit volume of hydrogen is very low in comparison to hydrocarbon fuels we're used to- Wikipedia says liquid hydrogen has even less mass of hydrogen in it per volume than typical liquid hydrocarbons.

To put it in perspective- look at the volume fuel tanks carried by the Aston Martin Hydrogen Rapide that competed at the Nurburgring 24H this year- massive storage volume and it only held about 3.5kg, enough for about two laps.

[CyberWasp]

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

Covered in the LPG section......

DEAD

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

The 500,000 registered LPG vehicles are mostly retro fitted, which kind of makes a mockery of buying LPG vehicles new...

Now that significant numbers of LPG vehicles exist, you can bet that just like diesel in SUVs and trucks,
LPG price will go up to protect oil companies income streams, I recon close on $1/litre form now on....

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The 500,000 registered LPG vehicles are mostly retro fitted, which kind of makes a mockery of buying LPG vehicles new...

Now that significant numbers of LPG vehicles exist, you can bet that just like diesel in SUVs and trucks,
LPG price will go up to protect oil companies income streams, I recon close on $1/litre form now on....

Yep, as long as your bum is pointed at the ground

Anything in life that gives you advantage

They will jump on it

[ryeman]

If any govt had understood the knock on effect from an impending Folden closure they wouldn't have bothered with LPG tax exempt status......it was never a consideration I'm thinking ....they thought it would be around long enough to undermine the tax base if they didn't introduce the levy.
Instead, just another nail.....

[bobthebilda]

The problem is that hydrogen cars will be speed limited to under 150,000 kilometres per second. Everytime two cars travelling at 150,000 kilometres per second, hit each other, they would set of a chain reaction.

[GK]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

Hopefully the pumps (at least some) will stay and the price will go down.

GK

[2011G6E]

The Prius had barely come out in large numbers before other manufacturers were getting far better fuel economy figures out of cars with "normal" drivetrains like small turbo diesels and petrol engines with interesting new technologies in them, combined with better gearboxes.

With LPG, it probably made sense back when 10ltr/100km was an unobtainable dream in anything but some funny little tiny foreign cars, but now if a manufacturers large sedan doesn't get way better than 10/100 on the highway, it's vilified as old fashioned and hopelessly out of date. Our G6E used to amaze me by sitting down on 8/100 when our four cylinder 1982 Celica can't get anywhere near that good a fuel economy.

With the price rises of LPG, and the amazing economy of "normal" cars, there's no real benefit of going the LPG route anymore.


Hydrogen has a whole other long list of limitations and problems of its own.

[Franco Cozzo]

I wouldn't mind giving Biodiesel a shot but I don't want the whole meth lab setup in my garage to make it, my GMC has an old school IDI diesel engine, and there are people running them on biodiesel, WVO (waste vegetable oil) and WMO (waste motor oil/waste ATF), the latter really carbons up injectors and fuel system though.