Air conditioning your house- advice needed! ?

[EDManual]

So I'm building a two storey 30 square house in geelong. I am wanting to go ducted evaporative but I only hear negative story's. . But I'm still keen.

So for about $5000 I'd get a ducted system to the top floor and apparently you leave ground floor Windows a bit open and the air comes down. The top floor is the warmest area obviously. Meant to be cheap to run.

Otherwise split system with 2 heads, one to both floors.

People say the evap only cools about 10 degrees from outside air and on humid days does nothing. Now we've had a lots of 40-45s this summer so chilling that down 10 isn't very good. Would be better closing curtains and blind in the morning and by the end of the day if it hit 30-35 inside with no evap ac. Otherwise with a split system the temp would stay at 25 easy I'd suppose and you can keep recycling indoor air. But costs lots to run.

I'm thinking of going double glazed Windows as well which in thinking about it would have no benefit at all in summer with evap ac.

Any thoughts?

[poppa smurf]

swampys been useless here the last 15 days, 45 plus and high humidity, today it is like the Louisiana bayou's.

if you can afford it go reverse cycle ducted right through the house, swampy will do maybe 80% of the time but the other 20% is hell.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

swampys been useless here the last 15 days, 45 plus and high humidity, today it is like the Louisiana bayou's.

if you can afford it go reverse cycle ducted right through the house, swampy will do maybe 80% of the time but the other 20% is hell.

what's the go with a Swampy, they arnt somthing we see in Sydney, and I assume is due to the the RH, my sister lives in South west NSW and there are a few arround but I wouldnt say they are common place yet when I travel in WA, SA & VIC they are common as well you get the idea

At what point is a swampy not suitable?

just wondering if perhaps a combination od Swamp & splits might be a go, as in for the 80% Smurf talks about with the swampy then shut the windows and go RC split

is that something to consider or would that just be cost porhibative?

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

what's the go with a Swampy, they arnt somthing we see in Sydney, and I assume is due to the the RH, my sister lives in South west NSW and there are a few arround but I wouldnt say they are common place yet when I travel in WA, SA & VIC they are common as well you get the idea

At what point is a swampy not suitable?

just wondering if perhaps a combination od Swamp & splits might be a go, as in for the 80% Smurf talks about with the swampy then shut the windows and go RC split

is that something to consider or would that just be cost porhibative?

look don't get me wrong, as I stated 80% of the time they are great in hot dry areas.

anywhere where there is humidity of any worth they just blow hot humid moist air around.

you will not see them up north or the top end of WA or QLD for that reason.

here they are pretty good but don't expect too much of them, they cool the air roughly 10 degrees, so a 40 degree day becomes 30 dependent on other factors........the larger the unit, the better they become.

we have ceiling fans as well as a split system for the mongrel days.

it is time to update the air-con in our house as well, so we are tossing up about updating our swampy head to a new braemar 550 using existing ducts at a cost of $2,000 or installing a whole new refridge system at a cost of $10,000.

I don't like the idea of being in a box that smells like a bears den after a day or two of running the refrigerated system so I prefer the swampy, but I also like to be cool.

running cost are about $600 per year for swampy to $1500 for refrigerated, dependent on usage and all sorts of factors.

bottom line .......swampy good in hot dry weather, not good in hot humid weather.

[mik]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

look don't get me wrong, as I stated 80% of the time they are great in hot dry areas.

anywhere where there is humidity of any worth they just blow hot humid moist air around.

you will not see them up north or the top end of WA or QLD for that reason.

here they are pretty good but don't expect too much of them, they cool the air roughly 10 degrees, so a 40 degree day becomes 30 dependent on other factors........the larger the unit, the better they become.

we have ceiling fans as well as a split system for the mongrel days.

it is time to update the air-con in our house as well, so we are tossing up about updating our swampy head to a new braemar 550 using existing ducts at a cost of $2,000 or installing a whole new refridge system at a cost of $10,000.

I don't like the idea of being in a box that smells like a bears den after a day or two of running the refrigerated system so I prefer the swampy, but I also like to be cool.

running cost are about $600 per year for swampy to $1500 for refrigerated, dependent on usage and all sorts of factors.

bottom line .......swampy good in hot dry weather, not good in hot humid weather.

just picking up on your comment on the refrigerated ac smelling like a bears den comment.

my old 15+ year old panasonic box ac used to get that mouldy smell momentarily on start up on occasion, (probably my fault as it was never serviced or cleaned in its life), however the current big invertor panasonic ac we have has none of this,
i noticed when i bought the unit home and inspected it,
it had a very good drainage system to get rid of the water, it also has nice easy access ,easy to clean dust filter set up, no coughing sneezing or smells with this unit.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by mik

just picking up on your comment on the refrigerated ac smelling like a bears den comment.

my old 15+ year old panasonic box ac used to get that mouldy smell momentarily on start up on occasion, (probably my fault as it was never serviced or cleaned in its life), however the current big invertor panasonic ac we have has none of this,
i noticed when i bought the unit home and inspected it,
it had a very good drainage system to get rid of the water, it also has nice easy access ,easy to clean dust filter set up, no coughing sneezing or smells with this unit.

we have a youngster still living at home, I don't know what it is but his breath is terrible of a morning, this goes into the air-con intake and just goes round and round, takes a good 2 hours of clean air, with the house open going through it to get the smell back out and for it to smell better.

I've been to houses that don't do this, makes me want to vomit with the smell build up.

the problem is not with the water nor the intake filter but the cold radiator itself, (whatever it's called) moisture builds and attracts particulates (smell, bacteria other stuff)......this needs to be dried and aired out.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

what's the go with a Swampy, they arnt somthing we see in Sydney, and I assume is due to the the RH, my sister lives in South west NSW and there are a few arround but I wouldnt say they are common place yet when I travel in WA, SA & VIC they are common as well you get the idea

At what point is a swampy not suitable?

just wondering if perhaps a combination od Swamp & splits might be a go, as in for the 80% Smurf talks about with the swampy then shut the windows and go RC split

is that something to consider or would that just be cost porhibative?

I don't know about poppa, but my experience in Sydney was in late spring and through summer over a few years and the weather was quite often 2 seasons in one day.
Stinking hot all morning and into mid afternoon followed by a build up over the mountains and a down pour, then the sun breaks through and the evaporation and humidity it creates is ridiculous.
Its a by product of the geographical location.
As a relatively daily occurrence, this situation would suit a refrigerated unit simply because it would better regulate the space.

Having said that, there were plenty of days where a 'swampy' would have done.

Lets not forget, summer is only 25% of the year, a swampy's fan can be used to circulate air 365 days and always introduces fresh air, a refrigerated unit will only recycle stale air.

In the southern states, and as you said, south western NSW it is a dryer heat and extreme wether changes, although still possible as has been the case this week(43* Wednesday dry, 27* Thursday and 40mm rain), we rarely see them in a 24hr cycle.

WE just don't experience that type of weather.

I don't think it would be 80/20 to be honest, not where I live in SA, however, I believe Poppa lives in or near the Clare Valley so conditions there would be different hence the world class wine region.
I'd say it would be closer to 90/10 here and better in Geelong.

[naddis01]

Are you sure you can do a 30sq house with 2 split systems?

We built a few years ago and put ducted reverse cycle in and also a 3kw solar system. That way we can run it as much as we want and not have to worry about the bill. Well for the next few years anyway until we lose our 60c rebate. 45 degree days? What 45 degree days?

We went with Actron Air. Australian designed and made. From memory they were a fraction cheaper than the Fujitsu. We had one warranty claim, although I think it was more an installation issue, which fixed without any hassle. Fantastic product and service so far.

Swampys are good, until they're not and then they suck.

[xxx000]

Go ducted upstairs. We've got a 2 storey house and a ducted inverter system up stairs.
It's great for cooling and heating but we now use a gas fireplace downstairs for heating both levels

Don't buy Fujitsu, they last just out of warranty and break down. Lots on whirlpool about them
Go Hitachi or Daikin.

[BENT_8]

We have a new ducted evap. been 40+ here in Adelaide for almost 2 weeks, no dramas at all.

People who complain about evap systems don't know how to use them properly.

$5k seems a little steep, our 6 outlet only cost 3.5k.

As has been said, a split wont cool a whole level, well not without working hard.
We have a split in the family room and it rarely gets used because it only cools 1 room really, and it is a reasonable sized unit.

[EDManual]

How does evaporative go on a 40-45 degree day with low humidity? Really around my area geelong, it's very rare to have humidity above 35 degrees.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by EDManual

How does evaporative go on a 40-45 degree day with low humidity? Really around my area geelong, it's very rare to have humidity above 35 degrees.

The humidity thing is a myth, it is all about how you use the system.

Look at how they work, water floods a pad and a fan draws outside air through it.
wether humidity is high or not the air is drawn through water so it will contain moisture regardless of the outside conditions.
The key to making them work right is opening the correct windows and setting the fan on the lowest setting you need.

Heres an example.

lets say its a 40* day with hot northerly winds.
You put your evap. on in the morning and open all windows.
Whilst the rooms with southern/eastern/western facing windows will cool due to the systems process of introducing fresh air into the room, passing through and exiting the window, any open windows on the northern side will allow the hot outside air in as it will over ride the pressure created by the system. The stronger the winds, the worse it is.
This negates the evap. process and creates inside humidity.

Now, you could turn the fan speed up to create a higher pressure void inside and prevent the hot air from entering, but then you are drawing hot air through the pads quicker which lessens its exposure to the cool water and therefore less effective.
This is where many get it wrong.

The key is to close any windows which are facing the direction that the wind is coming from.
Open the windows on the opposite side a bit extra to compensate.
Put the system on early in the day and leave it on the lowest fan setting to get the job done.

Something to remember with splits is that they only recycle the stale air inside and can get quite smelly in some cases.

When I installed my first ducted system I was sceptical too, but after using them for 14yrs now I wouldn't go back to a refrigerated unit.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by EDManual

How does evaporative go on a 40-45 degree day with low humidity? Really around my area geelong, it's very rare to have humidity above 35 degrees.

We've got ducted evap in our house and there have been some stinkers in Perth lately and the air con has coped fine. It cools the house to a comfortable level and doesn't leave you feeling like you're sitting in a fridge.

Unless, of course, that is what you want, in which case go for a refrig system.

[Pinkbits]

Double glazed windows are a good start.
You need to have good insulation in the walls as well.
I'm talking batts, not just the compulsory sisalation.

We have had both types, and with insulation that I installed when the house was being built as I mentioned above, our indoor temp with the evap unit could be up to 20+ degrees cooler than outside.
We currently have a 7.1kw Panasonic split system in the new house (30 yo) with good insulation, double glazed windows & block out blinds.
It is set on 23 deg with low fan & it keeps the main areas very comfortable in all temperature extremes.

[adumb]

30 sq single storey with just evap. Like others have said you need to windows for it to really work properly. On the really hot days just past around 40 outside it was about 25-27 inside, which was very comfortable, I dont like to feel like I am sitting in a fridge.

[mik]

I'm a big fan of refrigeration, yes it costs, but it actually cools without that clammy feeling, Edit, i like feeling like i'm in a fridge, and you can always turn the thermostat down..

[MAD]

I reckon evap for general use, and a small split in the living area for the extreme days.
You get the bonus of circulating fresh air through the house, instead of closing everything up as with refrigerated.

Some people don't know that you need to open doors/windows for evap to work properly.

[poppa smurf]

take a squizz here....

http://www.braemar.com.au/images/sto...912_f_webn.pdf ...

pay particular attention to the testing regime and conditions......the manufacturer makes particular reference to high humidity.

interesting to note it can be "multi zoned".......if you do not have high humidity then it should be fine.

we have the RPA series which is light industrial on the house and I have heavy industrial on the shed

both units serviced monthly by air-con specialists.

I am about to update my air-con on the house to reverse cycle ducted because of this latest heat wave, night time has not been pleasant, but if you don't get this rubbish in geelong then a swampy will be fine.

go as big as you can, larger units work better than smaller units, if you can go to a house that has a swampy on a mongrel day and make up your own mind.

[chevypower]

Refrigerative and double-glazed windows with low-e. If you are looking at getting windows, I'd love to send some business to my dad who has his window business in Hallam, if you wouldn't mind getting a quote from him. Ed Stelling at EcoClassic Windows. www.ecoclassic.com.au.

[MarkAW]

I don't know if the ducted systems are simply reverse cycle or you can get them as an inverter system. Always try for the inverter.

My house in Sydney's west originally came with a small window box rev cycle AC which cooled the lounge room OK and a bit of the kitchen. When we added a new room (lounge room) at the front, we fitted a 7kw inverter which now cools most of the house. The big bonus is that its consuming the same amount of energy to cool 4 rooms as the window box did for 1 1/2 rooms. It doesn't cool the back bedrooms without freezing the rest of the house so we just installed a small inverter just for the bedrooms - on hot nights its a must, add in the ceiling fans to mix the air and its goodbye sleepless nights.

[damoose]

I think it comes down to personal preference having a house with both systems the evap suits me much better as I hate being locked in a box and if the wife ever burns something in the oven you can reverse the evap and suck all the smell and stuff out.

[zilo]

Get FOUR split systems.

Then get a 5kw solar panel array to run them for free all day long.

That's the best setup.

Evap cooling is last century stuff.

[XP6]

4 splits... 5kw array I dont think so you'd need a 10kw+ system to even come close to the power consumed by 4 split systems on at the same time!

I think you really need to design the house to your climate 1st then run type both systems(unless in the tropics), use refidge during the humid condition days and run the evap at night in bedrooms for sleeping... best of both worlds.
This is what were doing right now with our new house, refridge in the greatroom(120m2)and evap in the other half of the house. UVPC double glazing through out with a passive design heavily insulated(skillion roof with a vaulted ceiling and celestial windows facing north, polished concrete as a thermal mass floor in the great room, its nearly half the house in 1 room...)

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by XP6

4 splits... 5kw array I dont think so you'd need a 10kw+ system to even come close to the power consumed by 4 split systems on at the same time!

I think you really need to design the house to your climate 1st then run type both systems(unless in the tropics), use refidge during the humid condition days and run the evap at night in bedrooms for sleeping... best of both worlds.
This is what were doing right now with our new house, refridge in the greatroom(120m2)and evap in the other half of the house. UVPC double glazing through out with a passive design heavily insulated(skillion roof with a vaulted ceiling and celestial windows facing north, polished concrete as a thermal mass floor in the great room, its nearly half the house in 1 room...)

This is a good medium.

For arguments sake, lets assume that on a humid day your evap wont work as efficiently.
Being honest, how many days of the year have humidity that will affect the evap. process?
A handful?
Is it worth forking out thousands of extra dollars for a full house refrigerated setup to cover a handful of days, not to mention the extra running costs.

It would be like buying a 4wd to go off road 5 days a year when a cheaper falcon would suffice for the other 360 days.

Put the evap on the roof and a split in your main living area if necessary, best of both worlds.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by XP6

4 splits... 5kw array I dont think so you'd need a 10kw+ system to even come close to the power consumed by 4 split systems on at the same time!

..)

nah...5kw will do fine, they run on a duty cycle that's low when up to temperature, whereas the panels still pump out when the compressor(s) are at set temp.

Bit like having a fridge rated at 1kw, but it only comes on when you open the door....so effective duty cycle is about 5%

Aircons run about 50% on a stinker day at say....21-25 degrees

[BENT_8]

Well its 9.30 here in Adelaide, still around 24*.
Its been ****ing down all day with temperature around 30*

Humidity was high 90's.

My 'swampy' has been lovely all day.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well its 9.30 here in Adelaide, still around 24*.
Its been ****ing down all day with temperature around 30*

Humidity was high 90's.

My 'swampy' has been lovely all day.

Evaps will give you a smaller cooling differential than a refrig system.

When it's 45 here in Melbourne, the only system that can cool to 21 is a refrigerated system.

An evap will get it down from 45 to about 35-36...but...nah

That's too bloody hot for me when trying to sleep, I need 21-22


Maybe the OP can evap the house and have a small split system in the main bedroom etc?

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by zilo

Evaps will give you a smaller cooling differential than a refrig system.

When it's 45 here in Melbourne, the only system that can cool to 21 is a refrigerated system.

An evap will get it down from 45 to about 35-36...but...nah

That's too bloody hot for me when trying to sleep, I need 21-22


Maybe the OP can evap the house and have a small split system in the main bedroom etc?

To be fair, an evaps job is not to lower the ambient air temp(although it does), it works the same way your bodies own temp regulator works by providing constant cool air flow over the body.
When you get hot your body produces sweat which inturn is cooled by air flow and the process of evaporation.
It doesn't require that the ambient temp drops for this to happen, its about the sweat(water) and breeze(fan forced air) combining.

The evap works the same way, although it doesn't require that you sweat for it to work as the unit supplies the moisture for you.

[RANGEREST]

Originally Posted by zilo

Evaps will give you a smaller cooling differential than a refrig system.

When it's 45 here in Melbourne, the only system that can cool to 21 is a refrigerated system.

An evap will get it down from 45 to about 35-36...but...nah

That's too bloody hot for me when trying to sleep, I need 21-22


Maybe the OP can evap the house and have a small split system in the main bedroom etc?

Poppycock,! I live up on the Murray river and we've had a heap of over 40s this summer, my evap has only struggled on 1 really humid day(27 and quite damp in the house), the rest of those 40+ days it has not been over 26 degrees during the day in my house. At night, The unit has an automatic setup and usually turns itself off by about midnight.

[MercurySilver]

40 degrees plus here last fort ighf and our evap ducted was OK. Might've been 27 in the house but sitting under vdnf with the fan on 12 who h is flat out was lovely.
WD also have a decent dplitty in the media room..
Youcsn get big splitties now that hook up to ceiling cassette outlets.
Go refrigerated if you want ice cold and a thousand dollar electricity bill