Take That holden!

[tickfordboy]

https://www.caradvice.com.au/714647/...e-in-21-years/

Sorry, got a little excited

[Sprint XR8]

Dowling must be a bit slow if he thinks this result is an upset.

[BENT_8]

Do you think some new guy over at Toyotaforums.com will be starting a thread about Toyota selling 4 of their bland white goods to every 1 of ours..

I notice private buyers are buying more ZB's than the last batch of VF's, kinda puts pay to the belief that ZB sales are all fleet rentals.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I notice private buyers are buying more ZB's than the last batch of VF's, kinda puts pay to the belief that ZB sales are all fleet rentals.

I had to read these two sentences a couple of times:

However, there is a silver lining for the Commodore: the imported model accounted for about 75 per cent of sales of the nameplate in 2018, according to confidential industry figures.

And in a shock for some industry observers, more private buyers purchased an imported Commodore than one of the last locally-made models in 2018, albeit by a slim margin.

The two facts you can draw from those sentences is
- 2018 sales mix was 25% VFII (first three months?) and 75% ZB for rest of the year.
- Retail- fleet sales mix was slightly better for ZB compared to VFII

Yeah I'd take that with a grain of salt, by January most of the V8s were gone..

[jpd80]

I just saw Hilux was over 50,000 for the year..that's impressive

[Bossxr8]

I don’t know why they keep talking up the whole ford vs holden thing. Former foa president graeme whickman said to a few of us that we don’t even see them as a competitor anymore, and don’t even use any of their vehicles as any form of benchmark cause they are nowhere near class leading in any valuable segment. It’s toyota, mazda, hyundai etc now.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I don’t know why they keep talking up the whole ford vs holden thing. Former foa president graeme whickman said to a few of us that we don’t even see them as a competitor anymore, and don’t even use any of their vehicles as any form of benchmark cause they are nowhere near class leading in any valuable segment. It’s toyota, mazda, hyundai etc now.

And thats what i've been saying for 2 years now, the battle is no longer between Ford and Holden, its between Toyota and all the rest.

Claiming a moral victory over a struggling former rival who's just closed the doors on their biggest drawcard isnt that special that its worth making a point of, especially when were talking less than half a thousand units per month.

The biggest challenges as i see it is maintaining ladder position ahead of the other bit players who are making significant advances in product desirability and customer satisfaction by way of market leading warranty and professional after sales service.

[anobserver]

"The last vehicle to top the 50,000 mark was the Holden Commodore in 2008, with 51,093 sales."

Thats a drastic change. And it still rankles that we won't be building any of those big selling suvs and 4wds here.

[FTE217]

Stupid journalism.

[Syndrome]

Any irrelevant victory over what has become an irrelevant brand.

[jpd80]

Mind you, I'm still hoping that Holden has worked down it's mountain of unsold vehicles
and can now start 2018 with a cleaner slate. 2018 was a steep learning curve for Holden
but now the worst is probably behind them...fingers crossed.

[GASWAGON]

The new 2.8 Litre Hilux's have major DPF/Oil burning issues.

My dads mate has one and its burning oil at only 20,000k's old (He's a mechanic so he's totally ****ed off!!!!) and a few of us have seen them blowing heeeaps of white smoke from the exhaust in the last 6 months.!!!!!!

Apparently theres going to be a MAJOR case against Toyota because of the huuuge problem.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by BFBarraWGN

The new 2.8 Litre Hilux's have major DPF/Oil burning issues.

Apparently theres going to be a MAJOR case against Toyota because of the huuuge problem.

Serious!!

[danzvtil]

Not a reason to celebrate, Holden is flat on its face at the moment, and ford is Steven Bradbury. Yay, we won!

[Ben73]

I'm surprised it's taken this long. Does Holden sell anything decent these days? Thinking of their models they are all middle of the segment at the absolute best. New Commodore seems decent, but do they sell enough of the dying segment.

[roddy1960]

Took me bloody ages to see a new Commodore in the metal ..Ended up being a station wagon in the work car park about 6 weeks ago . Yesterday I saw three in the space of one day .. One in particular (white) looked pretty nice . Saw they put out 235 kw , not especially torquey but not terrible ..

Will never sell too many but certainly an okay car apparently ..

[jpd80]

Ranger most likely did around 40,000 sales last year, it's been a long time since Ford had a vehicle sell like that.

What 2018 showed us was how desperate Holden was to maximize sales with seriously aggressive discounting,
they made a big mess over ordering but under Butner, that mess is nearly gone / cleared away..
While Ford just basically mailed it in by relying on Ranger, Mustang, Everest and Escape for ~90% of sales,
for most of the year, there was no urgency to do deals and no aggressive discounting..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

for most of the year, there was no urgency to do deals and no aggressive discounting..

True, but when they did it was to the tune of 12k, 8k off the RRP of XLT at $53k down from $61k and then 2.6k in servicing and the 1.5k gift card.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

True, but when they did it was to the tune of 12k, 8k off the RRP of XLT at $53k down from $61k and then 2.6k in servicing and the 1.5k gift card.

That discount price and servicing was on superseded PXII models that were pretty much gone going into December.

Most of December's sales would have been the non-discounted PXIIIs with 5 year free service and gift card.

The comparable Hilux SR5 was also priced at $52,990 DA most likely, last of 2018 plates..



Bent 8,
Just saw that the MY19 Ranger with a 2018 plate is now discounted at $52,990 DA
but again, this will only be a handful to salt buyers just like Toyota is doing the 2018 plate SR5s..

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Bent 8,
Just saw that the MY19 Ranger with a 2018 plate is now discounted at $52,990 DA
but again, this will only be a handful to salt buyers just like Toyota is doing the 2018 plate SR5s..

I was gonna say, i double checked that and even then felt a little anxious posting it as i know you're fairly well up to speed on this stuff..lol

One things for sure, if you were in the market for a new Ranger, theres never been a better time.

[roddy1960]

Not bagging Holden at all ...no point in that but if 40,000 Rangers sold and about 10,000 Mustangs or thereabouts , obviously a few of the other offerings , it's probably not the worst of times for the Blue Oval in a cluttered market .

What's the sales of Mondeo , Focus and Fiesta been like ?.. Not too many I suppose . The Mondeo is growing on me and if I was in the market these days might be considered .

Here's something from a bit back on these sort of cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgQ7GQbn0e8.. and a similar look at the station wagon market by the same bloke

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9XZel-wg8 ..

I don't think any of these sell in numbers the manufacturers are thrilled with more's the pity .

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I was gonna say, i double checked that and even then felt a little anxious posting it as i know you're fairly well up to speed on this stuff..lol

One things for sure, if you were in the market for a new Ranger, theres never been a better time.

Yep, $8,000 off a brand new Ranger for waiting a few weeks, gotta love 2018 plate sales in January.

[Junkyard-Dog]

I saw one of the police ZBs responding to a call a few weeks ago. The driver pulled a quick u-turn and planted it - no visible wheelspin at all and fairly impressive acceleration.

Seemed pretty quick.

[naddis01]

I think the uproar over the Raptor was that most people were expecting a performance engine not one out of a van.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by naddis01

I think the uproar over the Raptor was that most people were expecting a performance engine not one out of a van.

Would many people even know what its origins were though?

No, i believe its the capacity that puts people off, especially when for decades the rule of thumb was to increae capacity in order to increase output.
A bit of a walk down memory lane but..

When the GT was first released it was a 289ci, the it went 302ci, then Windsor 351ci, the 351C, all the time offering more go.
Fast forward to the 90's when ford brought the V8 back and it was 5.0l with 165kw and by the time the last AU's rolled around that 5.0l was 5.6l and 260kw.

Enter the BA and despite a slight decrease in capacity the power was on the rise again and stayed that way until the blown 5.0l reset the agenda.

Over in the other camp it was 307, 327 and 350, then the GTR Torana came about and despite its David and Goliath win over the fire breathing GTHO at Bathurst, they didnt sell in any real numbers, average joe still bought the biggest V8 offering in the humble 308 or the few lucky enough to score a 350 HQ.
Holden turned up the wick on the old girl via numerous different methods culminating in fuel injection and finally the stroked 230kw blueprinted GTS/R.
Enter the Gen3 5.7 and subsequent upsizing since.

Its not in the Aussie psyche to accept smaller is better, the exceptions to the rule are too few and far between.

[MITCHAY]

Holden is no longer a manufacturer so not much to lose. I wouldn't buy anything they offer these days I reckon. Insignia aside it is crap.

Originally Posted by naddis01

I think the uproar over the Raptor was that most people were expecting a performance engine not one out of a van.

I have since found out the one Raptor I have seen lives up the road it is actually quite bland.

No way I'd pony up the difference over a Wildtrak which I have seen plenty done up nice.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Ranger lead design team is the Aussies


(they're not immune to stuff ups either, e.g. Raptor Ranger being Diesel only WTF!)





.

Yep. They stuffed it up so badly they had to increase production cause it’s selling so well. What a fail

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Oh no, i get it, but i would be prepared to bet that a 3.2l with the same tech applied as that of the 2.0l with say 200kw would have received a different response.
I doubt winding the 2.0l up to max would cut it either, not when it could probably be wound up with a tune anyway.

Theres no doubt the little 2.0l when combined with the 10sp is a good bit of kit and the numbers are on the board that prove it outperforms the ageing 3.2l, so whats the hold up?
The capacity is what im hearing.

Back in the day we lived by the theory that theres no replacement for displacement and despite the Jap turbo 4 banger boys suggesting otherwise we wouldn't have a bar of it, why now that Ford says its ok do we expect people to just accept it.
Whats next, a 1.5lt with 15sp.

Huh? The 2 litre ecoblue is outselling the 3.2 by a significant margin. Something like 75% of orders are ecoblue.

The idea that capacity is costing sales is garbage, cause most buyers are choosing the more powerful option.

Thats the one thing you are leaving out of the debate. Capacity is useless if it makes less power and torque, is slower, and uses more fuel.

It’s kinda like someone buying a 253 Holden when some 6’s would hose it.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Huh? The 2 litre ecoblue is outselling the 3.2 by a significant margin. Something like 75% of orders are ecoblue.

The idea that capacity is costing sales is garbage, cause most buyers are choosing the more powerful option.

Thats the one thing you are leaving out of the debate. Capacity is useless if it makes less power and torque, is slower, and uses more fuel.

All i can tell you is what i was told, im not sure why he'd make it up just for conversation and if its infact true, i doubt all those people who have this mindset would be central to his area, it would suggest its somewhat widespread.
The people making these comments and buying Dmax from him over Ranger aren't making up those 75% of 2.0l sales, nor the 25% of 3.2l sales either so they are still losing sales regardless of the actual numbers.

And i haven't chosen to leave anything out of the debate, but it would appear that if capacity alone is a sticking point with a percentage of the potential customer base, it would seem more likely that whats missing from the equation is their own homework.

I certainly am not doubting the advantages to the Ecoblue, but im not in the market so me knowing it is not of much value to Ford and thats my point.
I only know about it because i frequent here, not everyone out there in dual cab land is a regular forum dweller.

Heres what i do know though, Ranger has never been cheaper than it has over the last month, throw in the free servicing and gift card and its never been a better time to buy, when they release the figures tomorrow, if the much better Ranger 4x4 doesnt blow Hilux out of the water at the same price point for December theres something going on.

[roddy1960]

I am a Ford tragic ..I'll always find it hard to buy anything else so I reckon at some stage it'll be something with a blue oval badge on it or will I take off my blue coloured glasses for the first time and buy something else .

If Ford keep heading down the Jim Hackett path by killing of cars pretty much entirely then that might have to be the case ..I hope at least the dear ol' Mustang survives the carnage so I can consider buying a new one when I retire in 6-7 years from now .

On the Mustang itself . I was surprised to read that Ford seriously underestimated the popularity of this icon in RHD initially . Quite a few Aussies like a bit of cubic displacement or forced induction , how could they under estimate that ? No wonder the Mustang has sold like it has in dear ol' Oz since it came here in right hand drive .

GM Camaro , Dodge Challenger etc. would probably sell in similar numbers too if RHD from the factory ever happened at prices comparable to Mustang . Mustang has proven that that market is worthwhile . .

[smoo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

All i can tell you is what i was told, im not sure why he'd make it up just for conversation and if its infact true, i doubt all those people who have this mindset would be central to his area, it would suggest its somewhat widespread.
The people making these comments and buying Dmax from him over Ranger aren't making up those 75% of 2.0l sales, nor the 25% of 3.2l sales either so they are still losing sales regardless of the actual numbers.

And i haven't chosen to leave anything out of the debate, but it would appear that if capacity alone is a sticking point with a percentage of the potential customer base, it would seem more likely that whats missing from the equation is their own homework.

A lack of homework and flawed way of thinking.

I have a work mate who has an older 2012 ish Hilux who refuses to buy a new one because it has a smaller engine. Obviously he is not alone in this neanderthal thinking.
The old 3.0 Hilux made slightly more power and torque than BMWs 2.0 four cylinder N47 diesel from around the year 2000 which was in the 1 & 3 Series. When that shape Hilux was launch BMWs 3.0 diesel was 160kw/500nm. Mercedes new OM642 3.0 V6 in 2005 was 165kw and 510nm.
Knuckle dragging die hard ute owners in Oz with their head too far up their **** to realise their highly inefficient Jap diesels are well behind the times.
I guess a similar perception was back in the early 1990s when the boat anchor 5.0 were pushing 165kw while Toyota and BMW dohc 4.0 V8s were 210kw.

Even now BMW 3.0 diesel range from 190kw/560nm all the way to 280kw/750nm, Mercedes 2.1 turbo diesel 150kw/500nm yet these mongs would rather stick to their archaic 'large capacity' diesel with performance and efficiency or lack of that belong in the 1990s.

If I were buying new and had the intention to hold onto it for a decade or so I'd be tempted to go smaller capacity as I wouldn't be surprised if the enviro push becomes stronger in the near future and taxes cars relative to their engine size, C02 output or claimed fuel use.