Aussie hostage in Iraq

bindi · 02-05-2005, 08:57 AM

Just heard this on the news this morning.

http://seven.com.au/news/topstories/78331

We shouldn't have gone to war AT ALL and now look what's happened... PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW!

**Charliewool** · 02-05-2005, 09:04 AM

What was this guys motive for being there? Doesn't sound like humanitarian?... More like the almighty dollar? Regardless though...It'd be terrifying.

Dodge · 02-05-2005, 09:05 AM

sorry but if u choose to go there put up with the problems, we all have choices

Dodge · 02-05-2005, 09:09 AM

yer the go and work tax free and expect us to bail them out, meanwhile im back here paying high taxes to keep his family on social sucerity

chelvdog · 02-05-2005, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

yer the go and work tax free and expect us to bail them out, meanwhile im back here paying high taxes to keep his family on social sucerity

Agreed mate, these people go over there and know the risks, ITS A BLOODY WAR ZONE!!! If troops are pulled out, a new, possibly worse dictatorship WILL start again and might actually produce real weapons of distruction!

It's OK to be making some seriously BIG cash (my mate's over there doing "security" work and he gets a shit load) but when they get kidnapped they beg for a complete withdrawl of troops. Why would Howard, Bush and all the other weasels give two hoots about him? The whole, "we don't give in to terrorists" line is actually practiced. Know the risks before you choose your fate.

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 02:19 PM

I haven't read all of the postings so this might have already been said, but didn't everyone notice that Iraq was a SAFER place under Saddam's dictatorship? Iraq NEEDED someone like Saddam because although bad things happened, less bad things happened, because all of these now 'free' rebels don't have any fear - before we came in, they feared Saddam, he had control of the country and was doing a much better job than the US (Saddam had even less weapons than the US - he just portrayed himself as more of a threat - and kept everyone affraid of him).

Besides, this whole weapons of mass distruction debate is ironic. We only see the side of the story from the US. Picture growing up, and all you ever saw was the US bombing your land, killing your parents and destroying everything you ever had. Don't tell me you wouldn't hate them? The US is just as evil as Iraq, we just happen to be friends with them. If Iraq was the world superpower, and wanted to stop the US developing any weapons like they currently have, don't tell me that the US wouldn't be ****ed off as well...

Always 2 sides to the story, we just get the slanted one that shows the US actually cares about 'world peace'... And we all know how accurate that is...

out:

Any BS about how we're there for the good of the people will quickly disappear once we leave the country in a worse state than before we entered it. Just how the US let thousands of Iraq citizens die 10 years ago, when they agreed to stand up along side the US against Saddam, and then the US decided "eh, we don't feel like it anymore" and they all got slaughtered...

The US kills people, and has killed more innocent people than any other country or nation in the 20th / 21st Century - just not their 'own' innocent people (unless you count the largest number of domestic shooting deaths for any nation). I do not agree with how the Iraq militants do what they do, they are barbaric and damned people who deserve to get what they deserve. But if my only childhood memory was some foreign country bombing and killing my family - I would be ****ed off to.

It's always going to be subject that no one completely agrees on (except Howard when he sucks up to Bush). there are always different views and experience which makes us react differently to this situation. I am not saying my view is right - and please don't reply to me telling me i'm an idiot and thank god for the US... Everyone's opinion is valid and to some degree everyone's opinion is right (because it is how they feel - and that is right for them) and everyone is right to experess their views. That's just mine.

Casper · 03-05-2005, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

I haven't read all of the postings so this might have already been said, but didn't everyone notice that Iraq was a SAFER place under Saddam's dictatorship? Iraq NEEDED someone like Saddam because although bad things happened, less bad things happened, because all of these now 'free' rebels don't have any fear - before we came in, they feared Saddam, he had control of the country and was doing a much better job than the US (Saddam had even less weapons than the US - he just portrayed himself as more of a threat - and kept everyone affraid of him).

Besides, this whole weapons of mass distruction debate is ironic. We only see the side of the story from the US. Picture growing up, and all you ever saw was the US bombing your land, killing your parents and destroying everything you ever had. Don't tell me you wouldn't hate them? The US is just as evil as Iraq, we just happen to be friends with them. If Iraq was the world superpower, and wanted to stop the US developing any weapons like they currently have, don't tell me that the US wouldn't be ****ed off as well...

Always 2 sides to the story, we just get the slanted one that shows the US actually cares about 'world peace'... And we all know how accurate that is...

out:

Any BS about how we're there for the good of the people will quickly disappear once we leave the country in a worse state than before we entered it. Just how the US let thousands of Iraq citizens die 10 years ago, when they agreed to stand up along side the US against Saddam, and then the US decided "eh, we don't feel like it anymore" and they all got slaughtered...

So your saying that the ends (precieved peace) justified Saddams means (slaughter and genocide of tens of thousands of innocents and non combatants through routine exacution and torture)??

That is the worst argument for not being there as I've ever heard.

All those that claim that the US are "killing and destoying" the Iraw way of life etc and now your saying that its ok for genocide and torture as its needed to keep them in line?

Next you'll be saying it was fine for Stalin to starve millions for a greater good and Hitler was ok to kill off millions of Jews etc because "he understood what Europe was really like"?

Saddam was a monster, he has totally warped an entire generation of these poor people and created the monsters we see today either though supporting them or hunting them down. How dare anyone actually try to even REMOTELY justify the actions of one of the worlds most savage and evil dictators of modern times.

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

How dare anyone actually try to even REMOTELY justify the actions of one of the worlds most savage and evil dictators of modern times.

I wasn't talking about George Bush...

smoo · 03-05-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

The US kills people, and has killed more innocent people than any other country or nation in the 20th / 21st Century

Got any links to back that up?

Deadman · 03-05-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

Got any links to back that up?

I did ages ago (like 5 years) when I did a study on it. I'll get back to you if I can find them (guess i'll have to try google :p )

[EDIT]:

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm

that's just a quick bunch of numbers i found (haven't read the whole site so not sure what's it's about)...

If ya have time to do some research - the info is not hard to find. Not to mention guns kill about 85 people every day in the US... compare that with Iraq...

Oh, and just one quote of hundreds you could find about the US in war:

"a US bomb flattened a flimsy mud-brick home in Kabul on Sunday blowing apart seven children as they ate breakfast with their father. The blast shattered a neighbour's house killing another two children …..the houses were in a residential area called Qalaye Khatir near a hill where the hard-line Taliban militia had placed an anti-aircraft gun." - reported by The Times (india)

ExAreSix · 02-05-2005, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW!

Why? Because of one citizen that chose to travel there, knowing full well the dangers of the region?

Have you asked the troops what they want? I know what they'll tell you...

I agree we should never have joined the US in this campaign. But it's too late to pull out now.
There's a job that now needs to be finished for the good of the Iraqi people.

bindi · 02-05-2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExAreSix

Why? Because of one citizen that chose to travel there, knowing full well the dangers of the region?

Have you asked the troops what they want? I know what they'll tell you...

I agree we should never have joined the US in this campaign. But it's too late to pull out now.
There's a job that now needs to be finished for the good of the Iraqi people.

It's never too late to pull out (oh god, that sounded awful! But you know what I mean!).

Didn't need to be there in the first place - it's friggin insane I tells ya!

:

Dodge · 02-05-2005, 09:22 AM

[QUOTE=bindi]It's never too late to pull out (oh god, that sounded awful! But you know what I mean!).

u sound like my last gf

Jamie XR6 · 04-05-2005, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

It's never too late to pull out (oh god, that sounded awful! But you know what I mean!).

Didn't need to be there in the first place - it's friggin insane I tells ya!

:

Actually we did need to be there. I served in both Gulf Wars and my biggest regret from the first one was that we never got the bast*d that time.

It felt good to go back for the second one and do it right.

The media only shows the negative side and the fanatics as that makes good news. Those of us that have been there see how happy the people were to get rid of him. Services for the people are up and running again, schools, hospitals etc. Most of the services are better than they ever were.

That guy who is now a hostage went there knowing the risk. He saw a quick way to make money and took it. He has lived in the States for 13 years and is married to an American. He doesn't work, live or pay taxes here and now he expects us to bail him out.

No one deserves to be killed and I'm not saying he should be, but he knew the risks.

Casper · 02-05-2005, 09:19 AM

He went there with every knowledge of the risks. Its a terrible thing for him but he has no right to demand anything.
I for one am glad we were a part of freeing millions from Sadams genocide. I fully support our troops over there and I would fully support any rescue attempt on one of our citizens HOWEVER he went for the dollar and knew the risks. He lost a calculated gamble. Now he must face up to hes own fate brought about by his OWN actions. He went, he took the big money gamble, he lost.

rag top · 02-05-2005, 12:35 PM

It was only a matter of time before something like this happened. What about the other Australian Killed working for the British? Didn't hear any calls for OUR troops to be pulled out then.... Same with the sea king helicopeter accident, didn't hear anyone ask for out troops to be pulled out as a result of the tragedy... Also, with the Solomon Islands with the 2 Aussie peacekeepers killed..... Some work is dangerous, but needs to be done.

Now a single contractor is kidnapped in Iraq, people ask for our troops to be pulled out so that terrorists can run the country????? As mentioned above, it's a war zone, contractors get big bucks for the danger element, and they are aware of the risks.

Next people will be asking for the government to ban aussies rom visiting bali in case they are accused of being involved in drug smuggling.....

rag top · 02-05-2005, 12:40 PM

Also have you seen the legacy left by Sadam?
Desert reveals Saddam savagery

**Chris** · 02-05-2005, 12:58 PM

I have a mate who has recently returned, and some of the stories so far are mind numbing. He is a specialist and wont talk too much about it. One of his missions was involving a US seal party, and all the yanks were killed. These were guys he came to know and respect, and they were investigating "river poisoning" when they were ambushed. I mean, these guys were trying to fix the amenities so families have fresh water for ****s sake.

Its easy to sit here and say we should or shouldn't be there. I suppose sitting in the sunshine of my office with my BA parked in the driveway, i am a million miles away from the pain and torture that is happening to real men women and children.

I stand behind the Australian governments decision to support the US in iraq. People who disagree are free to, but do your homework on the humanitarian violations that require policing, it may change your views. This guy knew the risks, its Iraq not hamilton island.

ferris01 · 03-05-2005, 09:39 AM

Bindi

I saw that exact same footage...not good...(had trouble gettin to sleep for days)...

Casper · 03-05-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by useless

Maybe he had to be like that.??? Several armies in Iraq cannot contain the violence and war but Saddam did. Maybe this was the way to keep the peace??

Stalin did the same thing too remember. Unfortunatly its a false peace. It is unsustainable and generally a veneer of the true and worse savagry going on underneith.

Fact is that the violence we are seeing now always existed, it was simply not publicly viewable because the media was completely controlled.

Dont kid yourself, how it is now is 100x better than when that lunatic was in control. He may have held some of the militents in check but at the cost of thousands of innocent lives.

And Bindi, you are right, the images of the beheading were disturbing but dont think for a moment that far worse hasnt happened to totally innocent women and children under the reign of Saddam. Want proof? Do a google search on his sons and have a read. I can assure you that not only will you be sick but you will probably change your mind over if we should be there trying to stop it.

zetec · 02-05-2005, 12:58 PM

not called danger money for nothing. I feel for him, however as with many people here, I fully support the government. A mate of mine has served over there and I have read stories and hears stories of what goes on, they most certainly aren't helping themselves over there EVEN given the removal of their oppressive dictator...

rag top · 02-05-2005, 01:13 PM

Have you tried spelling Sadam backwards?

xceler8shun · 02-05-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

Just heard this on the news this morning.

http://seven.com.au/news/topstories/78331

We shouldn't have gone to war AT ALL and now look what's happened... PULL THE TROOPS OUT NOW!

No we should have let Saddam kill more innocent people and continue the genocide.

And now that Saddam has been removed we should pull the troops out and let the Iraqi's run a country with hardly any system of government and any infrastructure and allow the militants to rule.

[/end sarcasm]

Sourbastard · 02-05-2005, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xceler8shun

No we should have let Saddam kill more innocent people and continue the genocide.

And now that Saddam has been removed we should pull the troops out and let the Iraqi's run a country with hardly any system of government and any infrastructure and allow the militants to rule.

[/end sarcasm]

slippery slope mate, there are hundreds of tinpot dictators out there killing their own people hand over fist, but they dont have oil do they. What makes one person comitting genocide a more attractive target then another? Money.

War is rarely conducted over such lofty ideals as humanitarianism.

Casper · 02-05-2005, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

slippery slope mate, there are hundreds of tinpot dictators out there killing their own people hand over fist, but they dont have oil do they. What makes one person comitting genocide a more attractive target then another? Money.

War is rarely conducted over such lofty ideals as humanitarianism.

And hence we get back to the hostage. He went for the money, he knew the risks, he lost.

Sorry, sad as it is he is not a humanitarian, he is a "risk for reward" taker and he is now paying the penalty.

Does anyone think that if Australian troops pull out that any onther Australians would be LESS of an attractive target? Dont think so. Troops or not we as westerners are targets all over the world.

**Chris** · 02-05-2005, 02:24 PM

exactly, look at the bombing in spain.................

ferris01 · 02-05-2005, 04:20 PM

How about this....

Are we not giving these low life scum exactly wot they want?

They take a hostage then parade him in front of a video pleading for his life. This tape ends up being shown on every form of media across the world. This form of terrorism will keep on happening as long as we allow these images to be shown. They know there demands will not be met but they are getting their five minutes of fame across the world.

In my view do not allow these mother#%%#ers their spotlight...

bindi · 03-05-2005, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

slippery slope mate, there are hundreds of tinpot dictators out there killing their own people hand over fist, but they dont have oil do they. What makes one person comitting genocide a more attractive target then another? Money.

War is rarely conducted over such lofty ideals as humanitarianism.

Agreed, hence my original statement...

xceler8shun · 03-05-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

slippery slope mate, there are hundreds of tinpot dictators out there killing their own people hand over fist, but they dont have oil do they. What makes one person comitting genocide a more attractive target then another? Money.

War is rarely conducted over such lofty ideals as humanitarianism.

Agreed, hence my original statement...

Bindi your original statement mentioned nothing of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bindi

I suppose what influences me is that I saw the Nick Berg beheading from last year/year before (?). My husband got it sent and he and I thought it was what we were shown on tv... but this was the WHOLE THING. I almost vomited and passed out.

He was alive for around 15-20 seconds, screaming then gurgling as they got a large KNIFE and hacked into his skin, then into his veins, then he finally died. And the head was finally cut from his body and it was held up as the f*ckheads were screaming about Allah and all that load of crap.

It is one of the most harrowing things I have ever seen... we deleted it straight away but it is etched into my memory.

And that's why anyone who is threatened with this to me needs to be rescued. I don't care how the guy got there, GET HIM OUT OF THERE NOW.

I've watched that vid like 10 times and still have it along with an assortment of other similar videos. To be honest I lost no sleep over them. These contractors knew the dangers of going into a warzone, but were after the $$$.

Now to pull military resources away from other critical operations to rescue a guy who went in for a quick $$$ and got caught, I'd make him pay the costs of his own rescue. He knew the danger.

What happens when military personnel are killed trying to rescue them?

XA-Coupe · 02-05-2005, 04:26 PM

Guys, this is a very emotive topic. Please don't let it get into a "Should We Be in the War" thread or it will get closed. I will let what has gone before stay.. but let's play nice from here on in.