Accident warning for all.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Must be sad when all you have in life Is the love of a triangle.

Must be sad when all you have in life is to take the p out of someone who is trying to save lives. Might be worth going and reading some of KL's previous posts.

[StrokedXT]

Gets boring hearing that a little triangle is the solution to world hunger, road safety, and a possible cure for aids.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Wouldn't have worked for me when I smashed the battery off my car.

Sure, many nose/tails pileups would probably put all four or more lamps out of actions, so definitely not a fail safe. Perhaps even a strobe device mounted to the rear parcel shelf or similar.

If the continuing sagas happen on freeways etc and its shown that people arent putting their hazards on then maybe it will become an adr, though im guessing a collision of airbag type deacceleration would be required for deployment.

There would of course be pros and cons, what ifs, car upside down, fuel leaking past lamps with a changing voltage etc.

Perhaps a 10 sec tac advert campaign would "hit the spot"

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Gets boring hearing that a little triangle is the solution to world hunger, road safety, and a possible cure for aids.

Its a little boring seeing someone so ignorant on matters of safety continuing to be so obtuse on the matter. Get yourself one of those acute triangles and put a sock in it

[MAV50L]

I am just failing to understand that when the car was hit again so quickly after the first impact , how anyone would have time to get out and put a hivis vest on , then put out reflective traffic cones and a warning triangle.
Its people thinking of solutions like this without looking at the practical aspects that is the reason for half the stupid laws and procedures coming into play today.
To put traffic cones on a road you actually need to be trained in traffic control as well , so unless everyone does the courses (there are more then one depending on what you need to do) if you put the cones and triangle out untrained and there is an accident that can be directly related to the traffic control measures put in place by an unauthorised person they will be liable for it.
Sometimes you just cant help or stop bad luck.

[StrokedXT]

Funnily enough I have never had a safety triangle and no ones smashed into me yet, must be those flashing hazard lights doing their job.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

.
To put traffic cones on a road you actually need to be trained in traffic control as well , so unless everyone does the courses (there are more then one depending on what you need to do) if you put the cones and triangle out untrained and there is an accident that can be directly related to the traffic control measures put in place by an unauthorised person they will be liable for it.
.

Interesting point, Im sure what you raise would apply equally to a reflective triangle as well as cones etc, perhaps KLeft can offer some comment on what can and can't do to warn of an impending hazard.

[deesun]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Its a little boring seeing someone so ignorant on matters of safety continuing to be so obtuse on the matter. Get yourself one of those acute triangles and put a sock in it

, sudzy said something many would agree with.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Funnily enough I have never had a safety triangle and no ones smashed into me yet, must be those flashing hazard lights doing their job.

Funningly enough, most people wear seatbelts even though they have never had an event where wearing them has been necessary.

[BadMax]

I believe it's a case of not being able to save stupid people from themselves.
Lets face facts, most laws are put into place to try and save these people from themselves but maybe it's just the way we naturaly cull those that aren't needed, it's no wonder society is getting dumber...

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Funnily enough I have never had a safety triangle and no ones smashed into me yet, must be those flashing hazard lights doing their job.

we almost had idiots crash into our car on the tullamarine the other week. we had the hazards on and were in the closed lane and yet people still tried to run up out butts

i see your point because we had the orange bollards behind our car, but if someone is willing to lug around triangles or other safety features, then good luck to them. i personally do not, but certainly they will help you to be seen and could end up being invaluable. there are too many idiots on the roads, so using items to help make you more visiable can only be good

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by BadMax

I believe it's a case of not being able to save stupid people from themselves.
Lets face facts, most laws are put into place to try and save these people from themselves but maybe it's just the way we naturaly cull those that aren't needed, it's no wonder society is getting dumber...

and what if a smart person gets hit by one of these idiots - plus it seems to me that most of the idiots on the road believe they are perfect drivers and are the most vocal about other drivers

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Funningly enough, most people wear seatbelts even though they have never had an event where wearing them has been necessary.

I'd say 99.9% of people would have braked suddenly at some stage

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

I am just failing to understand that when the car was hit again so quickly after the first impact , how anyone would have time to get out and put a hivis vest on , then put out reflective traffic cones and a warning triangle.
Its people thinking of solutions like this without looking at the practical aspects that is the reason for half the stupid laws and procedures coming into play today.
To put traffic cones on a road you actually need to be trained in traffic control as well , so unless everyone does the courses (there are more then one depending on what you need to do) if you put the cones and triangle out untrained and there is an accident that can be directly related to the traffic control measures put in place by an unauthorised person they will be liable for it.
Sometimes you just cant help or stop bad luck.

For a start, no one is really suggesting the use of traffic cones (triangle yes), putting on a vest takes 5 seconds (I know as I do it every day) and placing a triangle takes a minute or 2.

Trust me, the average person takes more time going to the damage on their car and having a look than it would take to do either of these things.

As for the traffic control training placing a triangle, there is no law regarding its placement if it is placed according to the manufacturers instructions, you will not be liable for a subsequent crash. Do you really need a training course to walk 50m down the shoulder of the road and stand a triangle up on its frame? I would suggest that if you do you also need a recognised training course on how to insert your key and unlock the front door of your house.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

I'd say 99.9% of people would have braked suddenly at some stage

Do you really brake that heavily that you need the seat belt to stop you from hitting the windscreen, even on a track I don't brake that heavily, most people brace under heavy brakes.

[StrokedXT]

I would have thought getting Off the roadway would be much safer than walking 50 meters towards 3 lanes of traffic bearing down on you at 100+ ks an hour to put uP a triangle.

[StrokedXT]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Do you really brake that heavily that you need the seat belt to stop you from hitting the windscreen, even on a track I don't brake that heavily, most people brace under heavy brakes.

What a load of crap if you can not move in your seat around a track through bends and heavy braking you must drive those tracks like miss daisy is in the back.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Do you really brake that heavily that you need the seat belt to stop you from hitting the windscreen, even on a track I don't brake that heavily, most people brace under heavy brakes.

we were in the philippines recently where seat belts are none existent in the back seat. our taxi almost ran up the back of another vehicle, and my subsequent bracing and hanging on gave my right arm a bit of a twinge. not much, but in reality we did need the seat belts for total safety. i see your point, but also stroked's. i do not think there is a comparison between using and needing seat belts and having and using some basic safety equipment

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by deesun

The bloke who "caused the accident" was really the bloke behind you because he didn't leave enough room between you and him,

Exactly.

Also, after a smash, why do people leave there cars and talk on the side of the road. Bloody morons. If it drives, get it off the road!

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

if you put the cones and triangle out untrained and there is an accident that can be directly related to the traffic control measures put in place by an unauthorised person they will be liable for it.

I'm trained in opening a boot. Does that count ?

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i do not think there is a comparison between using and needing seat belts and having and using some basic safety equipment

Beg to disagree, I raised the issue as 'stroked' dismissed triangles because he has never come to grief by not using one, most of us could do the say the same for seatbelts( I survived without injury a tboning collison back in the 60s with no seat belt)......there is the relevance, we wear seat belts on the slim chance we may need them, same with putting up a tri

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

Gets boring hearing that a little triangle is the solution to world hunger, road safety, and a possible cure for aids.

WHy do you hate the triangle so much.

It's not going to make the situation any worse, it may improve visibility, It may not. Better then nothing.

[StrokedXT]

I don't hate it just think it's a pointless exercise

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

I don't hate it just think it's a pointless exercise

i don't think it is pointless, but having said that, i do not have one and maybe never will. however after our almost accident on the tullamarine freeway while stopping for a friends crash, i can see how they may be able to help. our flashers were on and while a triangle may not have helped, it could have alerted the idiots before hand

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

I would have thought getting Off the roadway would be much safer than walking 50 meters towards 3 lanes of traffic bearing down on you at 100+ ks an hour to put uP a triangle.

Who in the hell said anything about walking on the highway, the idea is you walk up the side of the highway at a safe distance from the road and then only walk out to the road side to place the triangle. By the way, as it seems we have to state the obvious around here, the triangle is placed on the road shoulder, not within the lane itself.

As for the driving miss daisy on the track, ask Flappist about the great John Deere incident, no driving miss daisy there and I do not need the seat belt to hold me in under brakes. Good drivers brace their left foot against the fire wall, apply pressure on the brake with their right as they push their back and head against the seat and head rest. This provides a solid base to apply the pedal and steer as well as puts you in the best position if there is an impact, the inertia reel should not engage as there should not be pressure on the belt.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by StrokedXT

I would have thought getting Off the roadway would be much safer than walking 50 meters towards 3 lanes of traffic bearing down on you at 100+ ks an hour to put uP a triangle.

Absolutely! We are not saying that after a crash you should stay put - if the cars can be safely moved off the road. Our driver handbooks in each state mention this. Take a look at them.

I've used Euro spec triangles numerous times over the years on many a road category, including the F3 - where the risk of secondary crashes was and is - very real. We have had many fatals when cars have been hit whilst stopped in the wide, left hand shoulder, some with hazards, some without, 99% all were non-triangle situations.

(Immobilised cars in traffic lanes, one event to mind;- a Maxima, female driver who rear ended a ute in daytime heavy rain, F3 RH-lane northbound Tuggerah Interchange [See NEW interchange design @ RTA], couldn't see him. She had two toddlers and a baby, arriving live on the developing scene, saw the danger to her situation; cars at speed locking up/swerving. Grabbed my cheapo Euro vest, hopped out - ran along the median 200m towards closing traffic, and set the Ford Euro/UN spec triangle in the 0,5m right shoulder. NEVER take your eyes off closing traffic. This DID influence approach speed under the lousy visibility conditions; a desired result. Made it much safer to feed traffic into the middle-lane). Must be my kraut training.

I expect some think I am suggesting their (triangle and vest) use for all occassions, I'm not. I want your car to be supplied with them (1 x UNECE 27R triangle and 2 x vests), but leaving it to you to chooose IF to use same. Some GovCo figures prefer mandatory road rule method.

The items will become standardised in the new car fleet in time. In the meantime, I've had text as to their use and placement inserted into Australian state driver handbooks, with NSW & TAS even using a picture of the UN triangle, in preparation for that eventual adoption.

Having the gear in the car fleet is one thing (owing Traffic Convention), but I am not suggesting to then mandate that equipments use by the roadside, personally preferring to leave that to the driver, but educated as to the placement requirements insofar "spacing and distance".

Germany has it at law that when a vehicle is broken-down 'for an xx time', the driver shall first hit the hazards, THEN in zones 90km/h and above - MUST wear the safety vest *before* exiting the vehicle. The triangle *must* then be placed per tuition.

I shouldn't have to explain high-vis safety vests. Shall we discuss first aid kits in cars? Fire extinguishers? (First Aid kits in cars is part of the Convention update, I'm not chasing that aspect).

[kyro_02]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

The warning triangle and safety vest items form part of tranche of new amendments to be adopted by states parties signatory to "The UN Convention on Road Traffic", including Australia. Time needed to comply, and this takes AUS about ten years to catch-up*.

* Including adopting the new Euro/UN working party emissions items via Global Technical Regulations for motor vehicles. YOUR 'domestic pollie' then sells it via media as something local; to give you the impression 'the party' has done something unique - for you!

I bought my 2000 WH holden statesman recently... and I was very, very surprised to see a warning triangle mounted to the boot, which reflects when you open the boot, and it can be removed to place behind your car.

Didn't think they had thought of that idea back in 2000 lol.

definitely it's a good thing to have, as hazard signals shouldn't really be relied on primarily imo, something reflective is needed to catch your eye on an up coming car that is pulled off the freeway etc.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by kyro_02

I bought my 2000 WH holden statesman recently... and I was very, very surprised to see a warning triangle mounted to the boot, which reflects when you open the boot, and it can be removed to place behind your car.

Didn't think they had thought of that idea back in 2000 lol.

Good to see it only took GMH 13 years to catch up with Mercedes (post 50)

[deesun]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Good to see it only took GMH 13 years to catch up with Mercedes (post 50)

But how long will it take Ford?

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by kyro_02

I bought my 2000 WH holden statesman recently... and I was very, very surprised to see a warning triangle mounted to the boot, which reflects when you open the boot, and it can be removed to place behind your car.

Didn't think they had thought of that idea back in 2000 lol.

definitely it's a good thing to have, as hazard signals shouldn't really be relied on primarily imo, something reflective is needed to catch your eye on an up coming car that is pulled off the freeway etc.

STANDARDS & SPECIFICATION Observation:-
One thing though Kyro, that model first appeared bearing a triangle only compliant to AS3790, it has red reflector 'DOTS' (night use) on a triangular white body. Here:-
http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...w&flmaint=150#

So, its daytime effectivness is not anywhere near as good as the advocated UNECE 27R type, and its 'stability' is poor - it requires a brick, literally! It otherwise blows away or out of alignment, when cars and truck pass by - you need_to_rely on the items you use.

FINE as a boot only item, or on slow-speed one or two lane rural roads with a bend.

GMH updated that Statesman triangle to the UNECE 27R type, (which for cars, vans, 4WD's will become the norm), its also boot mounted but stored in a grey or black plastic case:-
http://db.hella.com.au/cgi-bin/catal...w&flmaint=151#
(I don't have that GMH part number, but this triangle is the same).

This last link is the same item as the Ford triangle I advocate in my SIG here, although the Ford triangle has "FORD MOTOR COMPANY" stamped on the box. (Mitsubishi AUS offer the same triangle).

GMH were supplying the Calibra with a UNECE27R spec triangle as standard, but many of those cars didn't get them - they were being stolen at the wharf.

Originally Posted by deesun

But how long will it take Ford?

I've not yet suggested in writing Ford AUS standardise the item for the car fleet, but Ford Australia's official hazard-warning triangle appears online under; 'MODEL'>> ACCESSORIES>> "SAFETY & SECURITY" tab. Try the Focus et al. DEALERS won't likely know they actually have them (or what they are for), and so they typically offer new customers - mats, bonnet protectors, weathershields, rubberised rubber cargo mats - all that life saving stuff:-) The printed catalogue DEALER list of Accessories should also have the triangle.

Ford AUS sell XX cars per year - they have to add the cost of the triangle to that vehicle, would you pay $56 more for your $33K Falcon? I know its not that simple and works out much cheaper than that!