Broad Band Manifold..what are your thoughts?

[Stav]

Originally Posted by EL__Monty

On my EL BBM I have a screw shaft on the BBM actuator that you can adjust which will leave the butterflies partially open on the short runners under 3800rpm. It's a similar setup like on the throttle body idle screw. So you could just keep adjusting the thread until you get the best performance.

This mod I finally did do this morning. While not a consisitent change was noticed,the kick in the pantsometer is telling me the car has a bit more significant punch low to mid range.It could be the cold weather.OR..
it could be that the vaccum signal is stronger in the long runners because the the butterflies are fully closed. I will drive the car like this for a week and will definately know by then if its better or not. t first glance it is looking good.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

the kick in the pantsometer is telling me the car has a bit more significant punch low to mid range.

LOL, so does it have a bit more punch, or a significantly more punch?
A bit more significant..... I love it, you have a way with words Stav.

It could be the cold weather.OR..
it could be that the vaccum signal is stronger in the long runners because the the butterflies are fully closed. I will drive the car like this for a week and will definately know by then if its better or not. t first glance it is looking good.

I reckon you have ya hand on ya noodle

Keep up the good work mate, if anything it's good for a laugh.

Rick.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Sox

LOL, so does it have a bit more punch, or a significantly more punch?
A bit more significant..... I love it, you have a way with words Stav.

I reckon you have ya hand on ya noodle

Keep up the good work mate, if anything it's good for a laugh.

Rick.

heheh.I have a way wth words. I am cautious because sometimes when you do a mod you focus on it too much and may make it sound better than it is. Truth is last night was the coldest night of the year that I have recorded.It was 4 degrees as I came home from a visit. Low to midrange punch on my modifed six was alot stronger with this mod.The car wanted to take off so to speak.
But it may just be the cold weather?

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

heheh.I have a way wth words. I am cautious because sometimes when you do a mod you focus on it too much and may make it sound better than it is. Truth is last night was the coldest night of the year that I have recorded.It was 4 degrees as I came home from a visit. Low to midrange punch on my modifed six was alot stronger with this mod.The car wanted to take off so to speak.
But it may just be the cold weather?

Well I definitely reckon it's the colder weather.
As I've said a number of times here, cold air intake has a much larger effect on performance than volume of air intake.

Engines can pick up 20hp or more just on (large) temp differences.

Rick.

[Stav]

That is highly likely.We cant discount the fact that the short runners of the bbm are slightly open all the time ..robbing the long runners of valuable vaccum .This in turn would reduce the effect of the long runners.It seems tomake sense that it should produce better power in the long runners's power band if they were fully closed.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by Stav

That is highly likely.We cant discount the fact that the short runners of the bbm are slightly open all the time ..robbing the long runners of valuable vaccum .This in turn would reduce the effect of the long runners.It seems tomake sense that it should produce better power in the long runners's power band if they were fully closed.

Hooray for seeing things my way .......
But you really knew this all along dintcha ??

[Stav]

Hey..I thought you bent the stopper on the other side.? So there are 2 points of modification.The screw and the stopper on the other side.The stopper is the one that made the wagon go slower.The screw mod works well.I think my theory is correct on it too.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

That is highly likely.We cant discount the fact that the short runners of the bbm are slightly open all the time ..robbing the long runners of valuable vaccum .This in turn would reduce the effect of the long runners.It seems tomake sense that it should produce better power in the long runners's power band if they were fully closed.

The short runners are not slightly open all the time.
The long runners are however operational all the time, even above 3800rpm.

All the fiddling around you're doing with the screw and bending the tab are doing bugger all. Been their done it on a dyno.

Your bumometer ain't any more reliable than the next guys, and doing tests like that just don't work.
Chuck it on the track or a dyno when testing like that, preferably a dyno.

You're just playing with ya monkey.

Rick.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by DAZZLER351

I,ve just realised where i am .....Urrggghhhh !!!!!!!! :

Good. Can you bugger off somewhere else then please? This thread has turned to crap because a few people cant help but argue and put each other down.

Give it a rest or you will be given a holiday (and this doesnt just apply to DAZZLER).

[Sox]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Good. Can you bugger off somewhere else then please? This thread has turned to crap because a few people cant help but argue and put each other down.

Give it a rest or you will be given a holiday (and this doesnt just apply to DAZZLER).

Yer cool, I'm partly at fault too, but geez it gets tiring when these dudes come here with no proof to support their flooby dust ideas.

I was just having fun with Stav, we've met and understand each other, but others just take themselves a bit too seriously.

Anyway, I'll button it up for now.

Rick.

[Stav]

I will evaluate if this mod works at the track really soon. I will set it to standard and then non standard position for comparisons sake. The outcome will be interesting once some form of accurate data actually rolls in. I will try it over a few runs for consistency.

[Stav]

Guys.Check this out... the blue line is the rpm and the black is my map sensor.The lower the black line(map) the more vacuum there is in the manifold.You can see that as revs rise under wide open throttle that the map reading seems very flat until 3900 rpm when the bbm kicks in.Then it gently slopes downwards to peak revs at 5700rpm on this run and still drops slightly on the downward revs after gear change to 4900rpm where I release the throttle .At this point vacuum goes higher and manfold absolute pressure figure decreases as the main butterfly in the throttle body closes.
It clearly shows some form of restriction in the intake system as revs rise.. Tomorrow I will do the same test without any filter to eliminate it as a suspect.
It is strange that the change coincides with bbm changeover point.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

Guys.Check this out... the blue line is the rpm and the black is my map sensor.The lower the black line(map) the more vacuum there is in the manifold.You can see that as revs rise under wide open throttle that the map reading seems very flat until 3900 rpm when the bbm kicks in.Then it gently slopes downwards to peak revs at 5700rpm on this run and still drops slightly on the downward revs after gear change to 4900rpm where I release the throttle .At this point vacuum goes higher and manfold absolute pressure figure decreases as the main butterfly in the throttle body closes.
It clearly shows some form of restriction in the intake system as revs rise.. Tomorrow I will do the same test without any filter to eliminate it as a suspect.
It is strange that the change coincides with bbm changeover point.

Actually that's quite normal.
Vacuum will drop to almost nothing at WOT, and will increase slightly as revs rise.
It's also load dependant.

Rick.

[Stav]

I have seen data on a v8 engine with similar vacuum /map readings. The car gained a substantial amount of power and torque by eliminating the restriction.It was a 427 v8 motor.That car loved a 90mm throttle body.It had good readings until 3000rpm and recorded similar readings to mine.
You are dead right.It should be as close to zero and stay close to zero. If not..it is a sign of a restriction. Most cars do this as revs rise ..but only because of a restriction. On most cars the throttle body is the limiting factor. For our cars..we have six extra throttle blades in our bbm manifold that may be causing the curve to be as it is.
My goal is to make the restriction occur at a higher rev number or not at all.Either of these should result in more power.

[ratter]

Isn't the black line your RPM, that's what it looks like, if so you have a dip in revs where you have it bookmarked at 4400 rpm,

[ratter]

The broadband is not your source if restriction based on this map reading, the map sensor is taken from the plenum part of the manifold, A restriction between the runners and the head will not show as a restriction in the plenum

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

I have seen data on a v8 engine with similar vacuum /map readings. The car gained a substantial amount of power and torque by eliminating the restriction.It was a 427 v8 motor.That car loved a 90mm throttle body.
You are dead right.It should be as close to zero and stay close to zero. If not..it is a sign of a restriction. Most cars do this as revs rise ..but only because of a restriction. On most cars the throttle body is the limiting factor. For our cars..we have six extra throttle blades in our bbm manifold that may be causing the curve to be as it is.
My goal is to make the restriction occur at a higher rev number or not at all.Either of these should result in more power.

You need to see how much restriction it is though, throw a vacuum gauge on it and find out.
I doubt it's worth worrying about, judging by the difference on your graph it's about a pooftenth of a inHG.

Rick.

[Stav]

Yep something is wrong around there.

I have just looked at a bunch of other logged run and this is the only one with that characterisitic.It is at 4100rpm.The revs stopped rising right there. It indicates loss of power..The other ones look fine so I am not that worried.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Sox

You need to see how much restriction it is though, throw a vacuum gauge on it and find out.
I doubt it's worth worrying about, judging by the difference on your graph it's about a pooftenth of a inHG.

Rick.

The restriction differential is approximately 1.59 in hg difference.I think if I can achieve a significant drop at 3900 rpm and up the car should gain more power and torque in those areas.I have got my work cut out for me.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by ratter

The broadband is not your source if restriction based on this map reading, the map sensor is taken from the plenum part of the manifold, A restriction between the runners and the head will not show as a restriction in the plenum

It has to be the throttle body or mounting port.Perhaps the extra demand for air by the short runners and engine rpm is showing up the restriction at the mouth of the intake?

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

The restriction differential is approximately 1.59 in hg difference.I think if I can achieve a significant drop at 3900 rpm and up the car should gain more power and torque in those areas.I have got my work cut out for me.

1.59 inHG is not too bad, I reckon the only way you'll significantly improve it is to throw on a individual runner 6 TB unit.

Rick.

[ratter]

As Sox has said, it is commom to see very slight vacuum signal at high rpms, although you don't want it, it is normally there, I think it may actually be air speed over the sensor giving a false reading. Passing air over something can create a low pressure area (vacuum)

If in the top end you started making vacuum you have a restriction either by throttle body sizing, intake tubing sizing or air cleaner restriction. I would try the air cleaner etc first and then a larger TB to see if it improves at all

While tuning on the dyno a while back, I played with BBM opening points and a NA BA6 everytime I changed it from standard I got a dip in the power curve which would possibly look like your revs in your log if I had of just been logging rpm. I think it's good your trying, but I found the BA was set perfect from factory, I know yours is not a BA

[Stav]

I dont think the opening points will improve things much.3800rpm is the point where long runner intakes seem to choke the engine..requiring porting the manifold or in my case the bbm switches to short runners.They got it spot on.

The problem is that with a modified car if we can get more power by modifying this puppy. I think yes.There just has to be a bit more in there staring at us all in the fce.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by Stav

I dont think the opening points will improve things much.3800rpm is the point where long runner intakes seem to choke the engine..requiring porting the manifold or in my case the bbm switches to short runners.They got it spot on.

Hmmm, haven't I said that to you in the past, maybe a few times? :

The problem is that with a modified car if we can get more power by modifying this puppy. I think yes.There just has to be a bit more in there staring at us all in the fce.

Well it's their, but as I said, it's not a lot. The entire design of that manifold is actually very very good. Like anything it can be improved, but not by much.
And then you'll only improve power at high rpm, as the long runners are practically ideal, and the short runners might be small restriction over 5000rpm. But we're still only talking 5kw at best, which is certainly not significant and only just noticeable.

Go on, get a new individual runner manifold with 6 TB's........

Rick.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Sox

Hmmm, haven't I said that to you in the past, maybe a few times? :

Well it's their, but as I said, it's not a lot. The entire design of that manifold is actually very very good. Like anything it can be improved, but not by much.
And then you'll only improve power at high rpm, as the long runners are practically ideal, and the short runners might be small restriction over 5000rpm. But we're still only talking 5kw at best, which is certainly not significant and only just noticeable.

Go on, get a new individual runner manifold with 6 TB's........

Rick.

Yes but that doesnt mean the seperate adjustments to the stoppers wont make a difference either. The amount of air at changover point may be more than a standard setup.Leaving the short runners slightly open may give it that extra it needs before 3800rpm to compensate the long runners.

[poolkeeper]

HAHA.

[Stav]

Sorry Joe I just deleted that post.I have an absolutely outrageous idea.I am going to see a fabricator tommorow .I really posted a bit prematurely If it can be done and is affordableThe wagon will kick quite few big powered cars butts!!All in na form.It is all so good but oh so evil!!! :

Ford will dread the day that blokes like me took advantage of their stuff!!

[Sox]

I think I know what you're up to, the other thread gave me a clue.
I hope you realise to improve more than 1 sec at your level would require approx 50rwkw. I have a funny feeling what you're doing won't release another 50kw by fiddling with an inlet manifold. Even an individual runner 6 TB unit won't give you that much, but it might give you 20kw.

BTW, Ford don't give a stuff about us, why would they.

Rick.

[LOWAU]

How big are the std AU inlet ports? in mm

[Stav]

Well since I started this project I have found other problems as well that need attention.Like I am suspecting that my walbro pump is dying again.Tommorow Ill be driving around with a fuel pressure gauge on my windscreen. I have reduced that squiggly line a little and yes the car is pulling a bit harder. See how it all goes once the fuelling issues are fixed.