The great Ethanol scam

Bill M · 27-08-2009, 11:26 AM

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyl...514_058678.htm

Given the way major ethanol producers have pumped $$$ into political parties coffers this scenario will soon be coming here. While some vehicles will run happily on ethanol some don't. The IDEAL situation would be to retail both your E10, E15 or E85 concurrently with NON Ethanol fuel so everyone is covered. Intelligent solutions can be made. Intelligent comment is appreciated.
Bill

Deech · 27-08-2009, 11:51 AM

It's hard to say whether I agree or disagree, given that half the stuff he says is true in certain conditions.
Sure, you can ruin an engine running too high an ethanol blend if improperly suited, but then it's also possible to get some insane power outputs if properly suited. That's like the question of:

Q) Should I buy a car from *insert manufacturer*, are they any good?
A) It depends, which model?

See what I'm getting at?

Stuff like this really infuriates me, though:

Quote:

Not one mechanic I've spoken with said they would be comfortable with a 15% blend of ethanol in their personal car. However, most suggest that if the government moves the ethanol mandate to 15%, it will be the dawn of a new golden age for auto mechanics' income.

Which is how many, and their experience is what?

Quote:

Fourth, forget what biofuels have done to the price of foodstuffs worldwide over the past three years; the science seems to suggest that using ethanol increases global warming emissions over the use of straight gasoline.

There are two points there, both lacking in a source. It may just be me, but I don't regard Michael Moore-brand journalism highly.

I'm happy to be disagreed with on the other points, but I think it's definitely fair to call the article unbalanced.

A

csv8 · 27-08-2009, 12:02 PM

sugar goes in my coffee not my car...

cupic · 27-08-2009, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

sugar goes in my coffee not my car...

+1 on that comment

cheers

Pinch · 27-08-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

sugar goes in my coffee not my car...

Nice. +2

ANY ethanol blend is manufacturer discouraged in both the Fairlane (XR6 engine) and Mini. The Forester could probably cope though.

vztrt · 27-08-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pinch

Nice. +2

ANY ethanol blend is manufacturer discouraged in both the Fairlane (XR6 engine) and Mini. The Forester could probably cope though.

Funny enough Ford says all Falcons after 87 can run E10.

tickford2001 · 27-08-2009, 02:44 PM

mmmm E85...power, nice to your race engine & cheap :hihi:

Mr Hardware · 27-08-2009, 03:41 PM

if people wanted a real fuel that's lower on power, higher on consumption and cheeeep, they'd go with LPG. Don't hover between the two, LPG or ultimate.

CSV_LS1 · 27-08-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickford2001

mmmm E85...power, nice to your race engine & cheap :hihi:

Not really. It can damage the valves. V8 supercar teams have had issues with it since it was introduced this year.

**Bundy** · 27-08-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSV_LS1

Not really. It can damage the valves. V8 supercar teams have had issues with it since it was introduced this year.

Like to see where you back that info up from??

EDManual · 27-08-2009, 04:31 PM

i hate anything to do with ethanol, it is just a scam. makes food dearer etc.

In fact, i go further on 9 litres of normal unleaded than 10 litres of e10. (which is 9 litres of unleaded and 1 of ethanol.) Whats the point? Makes someone rich....

burnz · 27-08-2009, 04:38 PM

ethanol cost 1.80 per litre to produce with out tax, and is heavily subsidised.
what will we pay at the bowser with the tax on and subsidy removed??

CSV_LS1 · 27-08-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy

Like to see where you back that info up from??

I can't say i have anything written to display as proof. It was tried on a friends track car. It was used for a couple meetings and then he went back to normal pump fuel after being told. The engineers who look after his car have a good relationship with some of the teams in V8's. Not wanting to replace valves and such on a regular basis they decided to go back to pump fuel.

naddis01 · 27-08-2009, 05:46 PM

This is the future of ethanol production in my opinion...

http://www.coskata.com/

It can potentially use garbage to produce ethanol. Seems like a win win situation to me.

**CAT600** · 27-08-2009, 06:01 PM

6 months, 100+ dyno pulls, 15 passes at the dragstrip, two circuit days and 6,000 (very) hard road kms and the cylinder heads on my 4.6L looked like brand new with no sign of recession or seat damage running on E85. Further to that the piston crowns and skirts, bores and bearings all looked A1.

I think fear is a big unknown in life, Ethanol has so many good features that put any and all forms of non-oxygenated petrols (Leaded or not) to shame including charge cooling, octane level and mega-antiknock propensity. It can also be tuned lean at idle and will therefore clean up the CO/CO2 emissions even with bigger cams etc without raising NOX levels (always more of a trading point with petroleum) Because of this it seems that it is too good to be true.

As long as the fuel system components are compatible, and the car is tuned to run on the fuel requirements (even E10 will cause the AFR's to lean by about 4-5%) there is no fear of Ethanol based fuels doing any damage to the modern motor vehicle.

Daniel

Jesk · 27-08-2009, 06:07 PM

i know my festiva isnt even rated to run E10 so if that comes in not sure how long it'd last

Pinch · 27-08-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Funny enough Ford says all Falcons after 87 can run E10.

I saw somewhere all Falcons were ok except Tickford engines. I am not sure why this is the case, or where exactly I saw it (some pamphlet at the servo I think), but my mechanic reiterated it. So that's it - no sugar water for the 'lane.

As far as I am concerned my older, out of warranty car isn't going to be some multi national companies' research and development mule. I don't drive it that much for it to be a huger environmental concern.

Some people have had a pretty good run on it, me I just can't afford to pick up the pieces if it all goes wrong. Wouldn't bother me in the Forester as its under warranty and Subaru don;t have a problem with it.

With newer cars its less of an issue because E fuel has been on the cards for a few year, with 20 year old cars it wasn't even thought of.

**GasoLane** · 27-08-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

The IDEAL situation would be to retail both your E10, E15 or E85 concurrently with NON Ethanol fuel so everyone is covered. Intelligent solutions can be made. Intelligent comment is appreciated.
Bill

I dont know if service station operators would agree with the "Ideal" statement there. Imagine the bowser setup.....

ULP93.
ULP95.
ULP98.
E10.
E15.
E85.
LPG.
Diesel.

Multiply this by the line(s) of bowsers and there wont be room for cars!!

xtremerus · 27-08-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

6 months, 100+ dyno pulls, 15 passes at the dragstrip, two circuit days and 6,000 (very) hard road kms and the cylinder heads on my 4.6L looked like brand new with no sign of recession or seat damage running on E85. Further to that the piston crowns and skirts, bores and bearings all looked A1.

I think fear is a big unknown in life, Ethanol has so many good features that put any and all forms of non-oxygenated petrols (Leaded or not) to shame including charge cooling, octane level and mega-antiknock propensity. It can also be tuned lean at idle and will therefore clean up the CO/CO2 emissions even with bigger cams etc without raising NOX levels (always more of a trading point with petroleum) Because of this it seems that it is too good to be true.

As long as the fuel system components are compatible, and the car is tuned to run on the fuel requirements (even E10 will cause the AFR's to lean by about 4-5%) there is no fear of Ethanol based fuels doing any damage to the modern motor vehicle.

Daniel

As you say, it must be component compatible and tuned for E85.
If granny in her old Corolla fills up with E85 because of its subsidised lower price, Bye bye Corolla.

**ebxr8240** · 27-08-2009, 09:37 PM

Henry's first car run 100 % on it..
Conspiracy theories here we go again!!
I would rather our $$ stay here in Aust ..
Our old EDXR6 with high compression [10.5] loves it!!
The heads done over 400.000 klrs and still going...

ltd · 28-08-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Henry's first car run 100 % on it..
Conspiracy theories here we go again!!
I would rather our $$ stay here in Aust ..
Our old EDXR6 with high compression [10.5] loves it!!
The heads done over 400.000 klrs and still going...

Agree entirely.
I'd rather the money stays here than help to buy some shieks new rolls royce phantom made entirely from gold.

Bad Bird · 28-08-2009, 10:07 AM

People have been left with a bad taste in their mouth due to Corn-based ethanol. Sugar cane-based ethanol on the other hand...

burnz · 28-08-2009, 10:29 AM

sugar alcohol is for drinking. (bundy anyone) ethanol
wood alcohol is for racing. (sell that at the bowser) methanol

flappist · 28-08-2009, 11:36 AM

There was s study done a couple of years ago that showed that if all of the cane, wheat, rice and barley etc grown in Australia was turned into ethanol it would only be enough to convert 4% of fuel used to E10.

The whole thing is a scam to placate the greenie idiots, it is not sustainable.

One of the major problems we have in Australia is too many old inefficient engines and grossly oversized and/or overpowered vehicles but the mere mention of doing something about that always draws screams from the "true believers"......

KPOJ · 28-08-2009, 01:50 PM

I run E85 in the race car, more molecules, less exhaust temp and you end up with similar dyno figures to your $8 a litre elf makes.

Fev · 28-08-2009, 02:31 PM

I'll keep running 95/98 until i can get a custom tune and maybe ill think about the Ethanol blends but until then..

**CAT600** · 28-08-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

There was s study done a couple of years ago that showed that if all of the cane, wheat, rice and barley etc grown in Australia was turned into ethanol it would only be enough to convert 4% of fuel used to E10......

Was that 4% of everything? or 4% of the leftovers that are normally what is used in Ethanol production.

If that is true it seems a tall order to implement 6% minimum Ethanol in fuel by the NSW government as at the beginning of this year.

Daniel

Ohio XB · 29-08-2009, 10:50 AM

Here in the US the big concern is for the daily drivers. Even if your car is built to run E-85 fuel the loss in fuel mileage negates the savings in cost, and fuel cost is a huge concern here.

E-85 is priced so that it cannot be more than 50 cents less than gasoline. This is the government screwing with free market and making sure that even if there was to be a price advantage to E-85 over gasoline because of a great dispairity in pricing it is negated because of this price fixing. Why? Can't have the oil industry losing money. They contribute too much in taxes and in campaign funds.

Just about every fueling station around here has the 10% ethanol fuel. I cannot find 100% gasoline here. I wonder if it is doing anything to the fuel system of our 2002 Mercury Villager minivan, 1996 Mercury Sable, 1993 F-150, or my wife's 1966 Mustang? I built the engine about 3 or 4 years ago without any thought to the 10% ethanol. I wonder if anything in the carb is getting eaten up? The fuel pump?

The concern that E-85 adds more global warming emissions than gasoline is due to the processing to produce the ethanol supposedly creating more emissions than to refine oil.

Steve

123Cat · 29-08-2009, 11:14 AM

My understanding is that fuel system seals and steel type has to be different for both
fuels

, its easy to get a cars fuel mixture right ,,,,,for whatever % petrol / ethanol

But the fuel system will always be a compromise between ethanol and petrol type as far as seal deterioration and corrosion of the steel type , that is the bit that worries me

flappist · 29-08-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAT600

Was that 4% of everything? or 4% of the leftovers that are normally what is used in Ethanol production.

If that is true it seems a tall order to implement 6% minimum Ethanol in fuel by the NSW government as at the beginning of this year.

Daniel

AS I understood it, there could only be enough ethanol made to convert 4% of all the fuel used in Australia.

Governments have never legislated impossible things before have they?

Or do they wish us to import the ethanol as well from places that can grow a lot to provide it. Of course they will need land and water for this.
I suppose that is as good a reason as any to knock down the rest of the amazon, asian and african rain forests....

How about legislate that all government vehicles must run on LPG or CNG that is produced in Australia. It is our fuel and public vegetables mostly never travel far from home.

No that would not help with increasing taxes nor would it or placate greenie nutters from Sydney who may lobby and vote against the incumbents.